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I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that. They were touting a MPA / MMA variant of the A319 a few years ago and that never happened.
Military Aviation News and Discussion
- Thread starter ngatimozart
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I think they didn't want to spend a lot of money until they had at least a possible customer lined up, & none of the obvious candidates (France, Germany, UK) were showing any interest.
The UK went from all-in on Nimrod MRA4 to "not looking for anything yet" to "We need it urgently so it's got to be P-8", Germany went from "We must have something now!" to "no urgency because we have ex-Dutch P-3s & we can modernise them" to "We need something yesterday", & the French are still modernising Atlantiques.
IIRC they were offering to modify A319 with whatever a customer specified about 20 years ago, & nobody showed any interest. It was either too early or too late for everyone - & still is.
Saudi Arabia considering C-390.
There've been a lot of reports that the Saudis are considering replacing their C-130 fleet (mostly rather old C-130H & KC-130H) with the C-390. Since the state-owned firm SAMI (Saudi Arabian Military Industries) & Embraer signed a co-operation agreement at the end of last November & started discussing final assembly by SAMI & a Saudi support hub for the region, it seems to be a serious possibilty. The articles speak of 40 or so C-130 being replaced by 33 C-390, & SAMI & Embraer being in talks with the Saudi MoD.
This would be a big boost to the C-390 programme. It'd be the biggest order to date, & offers the possibility of SAMI putting up money for future developments.
This is one of the most interesting paywall-free articles I've found - Saudi Arabia Military Industries joins forces with Embraer on defense cooperation, C-390 - Breaking Defense
There've been a lot of reports that the Saudis are considering replacing their C-130 fleet (mostly rather old C-130H & KC-130H) with the C-390. Since the state-owned firm SAMI (Saudi Arabian Military Industries) & Embraer signed a co-operation agreement at the end of last November & started discussing final assembly by SAMI & a Saudi support hub for the region, it seems to be a serious possibilty. The articles speak of 40 or so C-130 being replaced by 33 C-390, & SAMI & Embraer being in talks with the Saudi MoD.
This would be a big boost to the C-390 programme. It'd be the biggest order to date, & offers the possibility of SAMI putting up money for future developments.
This is one of the most interesting paywall-free articles I've found - Saudi Arabia Military Industries joins forces with Embraer on defense cooperation, C-390 - Breaking Defense
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Thirty three C-390s would be huge for Embraer and could be the start of Hercules’ decline as the premier tactical transport although a turboprop aircraft will always be needed. Might force LM to consider a new jet tactical lifter. This could also result in the Japanese starting an improved marketing plan for the C-2.
Terran
Well-Known Member
LM has flirted with such things in the past.
The USAF has rolled potential programs for replacement of the C130 for decades with Boeing and LM offering concepts ranging from massive tilt rotors to blended wing jets.
The biggest issue is that of funding. Those programs usually end up being funded to tests and studies but canceled before flying prototypes. It’s all about the funding. Funding priorities decide if said project ends with some cool models or becomes the next C17.
The C130J came about as the RAF bankrolled it. The C130 as the USAF bankrolled it. A400M as a conglomerate of European governments bankrolled it. The C2… need I continue? Embraer had a guaranteed sale to Brazil. That allows them to take it all the way.
Without self funding. Without a government willing to pay for it the big builders are going to be hesitant to invest in such. It’s easy for a smaller cheaper aircraft to be designed and funded to a point especially when it’s a civilian aircraft. But military? The Textron Air Land Scorpion comes to mind. Self funded, self conceived, a good concept and pretty much a dead end.
KC390 is successful in part because it’s now mature. It’s developed all the way. Production is rolling and Embraer seems happy to license, joint venture and modify.
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Terran
Well-Known Member
Perfect example.
France and Germany were the prime suspects to buy. Paris hasn’t laid out the cash and Berlin wants off the shelf. Airbus is happy to shop the concept but won’t spend the cash it has on more than studies and marketing materials. Not until someone puts some Dollars/Euros on the table and signs on the dotted line.
France and Germany were the prime suspects to buy. Paris hasn’t laid out the cash and Berlin wants off the shelf. Airbus is happy to shop the concept but won’t spend the cash it has on more than studies and marketing materials. Not until someone puts some Dollars/Euros on the table and signs on the dotted line.
In other Saudi-related news, it looks as if the German block on additional Typhoon sales may be going away. Will the Saudis bite, & sign for 48 Typhoon of the latest version they can get?
Germany Lifts Veto on Eurofighter Sales to Saudi Arabia: Foreign Minister
Germany Lifts Veto on Eurofighter Sales to Saudi Arabia: Foreign Minister
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
I wonder why Saudi-Arabia wouldn't buy EF2000s from Italy, Spain or the UK. I know any Eurofighter acquisition needs approval from all the four countries, but it will make future procurements more practical. It is also ridiculous that German needs Israel's permission for this.
Saudi Arabia bought 72 from the UK a long time ago, & wants to buy 48 more from the UK.
The problem was that Germany was refusing to allow German-made parts to be used in new sales to Saudi Arabia.
Germany doesn't need Israel's permission, but it's very sensitive to Israeli feelings, for obvious historical reasons.
The problem was that Germany was refusing to allow German-made parts to be used in new sales to Saudi Arabia.
Germany doesn't need Israel's permission, but it's very sensitive to Israeli feelings, for obvious historical reasons.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
An article discussing the latest info about the Kawasaki C-2. A few decent size export orders could get the cost down to a more affordable range which when combined with its superior capabilities would be a serious challenge to both the C-390 and C-130. It carry roughly 50% of the C-17 load with the same range so it is a useful backup for AFs that didn’t order enough C-17s. Great short runway capability is another plus. As the RCAF only has 5 over worked C-17s, a half dozen C-2s sounds good to me.
Terran
Well-Known Member
This is basically the same sales pitch as A400M the features lists don’t exactly line up but generally they are in the same ballpark. However @john I think you trapped yourself.
First as both KC390, KC130J/MC130J and A400M are MRTTs. They can operate as transports and tankers. They often cover a more specialized segment of air to air refueling that being rotorcraft which often have top speeds that larger commercially derived tankers would find too slow and risk stalling. They also tend to be more optimized for low altitude flights allowing better fueling of helicopters that live in the weeds.
C2 was designed for the JASDF. Japan however operates a separate fleet of MRTT class tankers in the form of KC46A and KC767. They also have a relatively young fleet of KC130H.
To date there seems no indication of the Japanese government looking at adding refueling to C2. Any hypothetical airforce that buys C2 would either need to bankroll a massive modification to get air to air refueling capability added or have to buy a tanker as well. In which case back to KC390 or KC130J. A400M has almost the same payload and tanker capacity so buying both C2 and A400M makes no sense.
Second is maintenance, The thing is a bigger plane has a bigger price tags and bigger maintenance costs. Sure C2 only has 2 engines vs the 4 of C17 or A400M, with engines often the lion’s share of maintenance. However you are still talking about airframe maintenance issues that have to be sorted. Then you move in Japanese logistics as well C2 has a great potential, the Japanese government has not been well known for exporting any of its equipment. If any country wanted to buy they would need to have worked out with the Japanese and Kawasaki the support and maintenance. Military systems like airlines live and die by the warranty service. The Japanese if they wanted to export would need to establish a support base. That’s a big investment.
Third the BIG question of do you need it for the mission? Much of the duties performed in Military airlift are just in time logistics. That means taking off and landing in established military bases. Which doesn’t require STOL. That mission set actually favors A330MRTT or KC46. Because an established base is going to have all it needs to off load from commercially derived transports.
A400M and C2 have a place don’t get me wrong. the mission set that dedicated military transports favor is roll on roll off rough field and tactical deployment. Basically to ship stuff you can drive onto the bird or drop stuff out the back at low altitude. Heavier transports can do this sure but the bulk of cargo you would do this with is under 37 tons. The few exceptions are armored vehicles. But even then you have issues. First as because of the weight class most of the really impressive stuff still won’t fit. The M10 Booker is the US’s new “light tank” yet its base weight is more than the C2 or A400M so its C17 only. Most of the world’s modern IFV have the same deal. You would basically have to break them down and load the components into separate airplanes. Which makes it inefficient. Where C17 is sized big enough to do the job all in one for all but the biggest monsters. Sure there are some wheeled and light armored vehicles that would still require equipment to be flown separately and added on unloading. The equipment that doesn’t have this issue is probably already able to be loaded on C130J30 because the air drop limitations cut off around the same weight as C130J/C390 payload. In which case sure C2 or A400m just does more per drop.
I believe that C390 lives in a Goldilocks zone, it’s just right class of military transports. The C130/An12 (Y8/Y9) sits just at the bottom of it. Small enough in payload and size that its fairly cheap to operate. It’s large enough in payload that it can carry some light weight armor. Its slow enough to refuel conventional rotating aviation its fact enough to support fixed wing. The class has been configured as AWACS, maritime patrol, Gunships, ISR, Tankers, flying command posts, communications relays, VIP transports, Fire fighting tankers, Bombers, electronic warfare platforms (yes C2 does this as well), and even livestock transports. It’s small enough that it can be bought and maintained in significant numbers allowing you to start working on your crazy ideas, large enough to get most of the jobs done.
C390 was designed to replace C130s even the designation is a clear reference to that fact. It’s a little step up in payload so as to allow more modern light armor on board with similar restrictions as older stuff we’ll also getting fast enough a speed boost to make it more efficient at long range flights. It offers this well situated at being cost efficient. C2 and A400M have potential yes but the costs and size of investment and availability mean that they are much more limited to just the Transport and tanker missions.
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Redlands18
Well-Known Member
One point to make, it is the C-390, the KC was dropped several years ago.
Terran
Well-Known Member
@Redlands
I used both versions of the designation and with one exception the KC390 was almost entirely in the context of referring to other Air to Air tankers. I have (will) edit to correct that one slip.
Marketing and press use the KC390 designation particularly in regards to tanker versions.
I used both versions of the designation and with one exception the KC390 was almost entirely in the context of referring to other Air to Air tankers. I have (will) edit to correct that one slip.
Marketing and press use the KC390 designation particularly in regards to tanker versions.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
There's also one advantage of C-390, that's Embrear also design it with many components share similarities with E Series. In short, it is Military transport with shares similarities on maintenance with airliners standard.
This's matter because means C390 can piggyback on airliners logistics chains. Perhaps not all, but certainly quite significant parts. This in the end I do believe influences many operators decision-making.
This's matter because means C390 can piggyback on airliners logistics chains. Perhaps not all, but certainly quite significant parts. This in the end I do believe influences many operators decision-making.
C390 has a higher & wider cargo hold than C-130 IIRC, which may be more important than lifting maybe 25% more weight & being a bit faster.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
As far as i know the C390 has different engines than the E-family, but yes, the V2500 is used by the MD-90 and many A320s.
One of the strongest points of the C390 is the amount of engines.
For some reason Indonesia has chosen the A400M above the twin-engine A330 MRTT, so STOL-capabilities and an aft ramp door have higher priorities than ease of maintenance, cargo compartment length, payload, range and speed for Indonesia.
But indeed the choice depends on the requirements of the customer. (And politics)
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Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
According to a report from the French senate, FCAS may not be ready until 2045 or 2050 - the delay is so bad that the senators called for an upgraded Rafale order, which appears to have been placed recently. That would put FCAS 10-15 years behind GCAP in terms of entering service.
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
At this point, would the GCAP partners want Germany in their program? France’s carrier requirement and Germany’s uncertain export restrictions are a problem for FCAS and of course workshare adds another layer of difficulty.