Middle East Defence & Security

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Binding resolutions are the exception, not the rule when it comes to UNSC.
AFAIK there are multiple debate items where resolutions are issued, and binding ones are only in one of these items.

Also the resolution itself, if binding, must have an operative clause. What is the operative clause of the given resolution?
Incorrect. Article 25 of the UN Charter.

"The Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter. "

All resolutions are binding and all members agree to accept and carry them out.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
The Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter. "

All resolutions are binding and all members agree to accept and carry them out.
You misinterpreted the text. It does not make any and all USNC decisions binding. If the UNSC issues a resolution and is explicit about it being non-binding, then article 25 does not overrule it and makes it binding. It allows the UNSC to decide which resolution is binding and which isn't.

The segment I highlighted literally says that UNSC decisions are described in other articles of the charter.

The UNSC forum is structured into chapters (not items as I previously said). UN resolution 242 which was mentioned earlier, was adopted under Chapter VI. This chapter specifically deals in non-binding resolutions related to security.
Binding resolutions are adopted under chapter VII.

And the reason I asked you to quote the operative part of said resolution, which you failed to do, is because if you had actually read it, you'd see that it contains nothing concrete.
It essentially tells Israel to not keep territories occupied in 1967 indefinitely, and to seek a diplomatic solution to return to the previous territorial state.
Which is exactly what Israel did.
The Sinai went to Egypt in 1979. Peace with Jordan was signed in 1994.
Syria was offered the Golan but talks collapsed following the civil war, and have now resumed with Syrian concession of the Golan to Israel claimed to be on the table.
So the resolution is very close to being fulfilled.
Gaza and J&S are territories which Egypt and Jordan laid no claims on, and are therefore Israeli by law.
In 1993 Israel offered these to the Palestinians to settle that conflict as well, but the Palestinians attacked and that effort is currently frozen.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
You misinterpreted the text. It does not make any and all USNC decisions binding. If the UNSC issues a resolution and is explicit about it being non-binding, then article 25 does not overrule it and makes it binding. It allows the UNSC to decide which resolution is binding and which isn't.

The segment I highlighted literally says that UNSC decisions are described in other articles of the charter.

The UNSC forum is structured into chapters (not items as I previously said). UN resolution 242 which was mentioned earlier, was adopted under Chapter VI. This chapter specifically deals in non-binding resolutions related to security.
Binding resolutions are adopted under chapter VII.
Can you elaborate where it says that? Nothing in the resolution indicates it's non-binding. In general there is an article that makes all UN Security Council resolutions binding. Where does it say something else?


And the reason I asked you to quote the operative part of said resolution, which you failed to do, is because if you had actually read it, you'd see that it contains nothing concrete.
It essentially tells Israel to not keep territories occupied in 1967 indefinitely, and to seek a diplomatic solution to return to the previous territorial state.
Which is exactly what Israel did.
The Sinai went to Egypt in 1979. Peace with Jordan was signed in 1994.
Syria was offered the Golan but talks collapsed following the civil war, and have now resumed with Syrian concession of the Golan to Israel claimed to be on the table.
So the resolution is very close to being fulfilled.
Gaza and J&S are territories which Egypt and Jordan laid no claims on, and are therefore Israeli by law.
In 1993 Israel offered these to the Palestinians to settle that conflict as well, but the Palestinians attacked and that effort is currently frozen.
But it also means that Gaza doesn't belong to Israel and annexing it would violate this resolution. It certainly doesn't give Israel any right to keep the territory in question indefinitely.
 
What precedent?

Inheritance is enshrined in the principle of Uti Possidetis Juris, through which states defined their borders both before and long after Israel did. Ukraine and Jordan are examples that were raised and explained here.
The precedent is that Israel accepted the partition plan, and following the armistice of 1949, made no claims on Gaza.

Since Gaza was allocated to the Palestinians in the partition plan, and is claimed by Palestine, and has never been claimed by Israel, the UN is incredibly consistent in declaring it Palestinian territory, whether or not Palestine accepted the partition plan as such.

Uti Possidetis Juris is a farcical law to invoke here, as laid out in this excellent argument by David Kretzmer:


Bottom line is that for Uti Possidetis Juris to apply, the emerging state would need to actually claim the borders in question at the time of their establishment. Israel accepted the partition plan and never made a claim on Gaza or the West Bank, nor did they attempt to establish control over them until 20 years later. This is simply a post hoc rationalization to justify their continued occupation, and a particularly weak one at that
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Can you elaborate where it says that? Nothing in the resolution indicates it's non-binding. In general there is an article that makes all UN Security Council resolutions binding. Where does it say something else?
And nothing indicates that it is binding.
Article 33 from Chapter 6, the only chapter referenced in the resolution:

"The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice"


Further, the operative section of UNSC242 reflects that.

But it also means that Gaza doesn't belong to Israel and annexing it would violate this resolution. It certainly doesn't give Israel any right to keep the territory in question indefinitely.
In what way?
By a law of inheritance, Gaza and J&S were Israeli territories the moment Israel declared independence in 1948.
Egypt occupied Gaza in 1949.


The precedent is that Israel accepted the partition plan, and following the armistice of 1949, made no claims on Gaza.
You don't really know what an agreement is, do you?


Since Gaza was allocated to the Palestinians in the partition plan, and is claimed by Palestine, and has never been claimed by Israel, the UN is incredibly consistent in declaring it Palestinian territory, whether or not Palestine accepted the partition plan as such.
No.
Bottom line is that for Uti Possidetis Juris to apply, the emerging state would need to actually claim the borders in question at the time of their establishment. Israel accepted the partition plan and never made a claim on Gaza or the West Bank, nor did they attempt to establish control over them until 20 years later. This is simply a post hoc rationalization to justify their continued occupation, and a particularly weak one at that
I can easily rationalize occupation without invoking law. I did explain the legal framework for annexation of Gaza since @Feanor and several others here are so adamant that:
1. International law be applied to this conflict specifically and exclusively.
2. That Gaza cannot legally claimed and annexed exclusively by Israel.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
And nothing indicates that it is binding.
Article 33 from Chapter 6, the only chapter referenced in the resolution:

"The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice"


Further, the operative section of UNSC242 reflects that.
Nothing needs to indicate that it's binding. By definition all member states have to abide by all UNSC resolutions. Again it's in the charter. Something would have to indicate otherwise for it to be nonbinding. Per the UN Charter by default all UNSC resolutions are covered by Article 25.

In what way?
By a law of inheritance, Gaza and J&S were Israeli territories the moment Israel declared independence in 1948.
Egypt occupied Gaza in 1949.
The text of the resolution explicitly contradicts this and since it's binding, and Israel was a UN member state at the time of the resolution, Israel has to abide by it.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Nothing needs to indicate that it's binding. By definition all member states have to abide by all UNSC resolutions. Again it's in the charter. Something would have to indicate otherwise for it to be nonbinding. Per the UN Charter by default all UNSC resolutions are covered by Article 25.
Then in that case Israel could just ignore the resolution since it has no concrete definitions and can be postponed indefinitely.


The text of the resolution explicitly contradicts this and since it's binding, and Israel was a UN member state at the time of the resolution, Israel has to abide by it.
Can you quote the specific part?

This is the 3rd time I'm asking for a quote, should I just consider it withdrawn?
We haven't even gotten to the part where you explain to whom the land does belong.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
can easily rationalize occupation without invoking law. I did explain the legal framework for annexation of Gaza since @Feanor and several others here are so adamant that:
Yeah right, you just shown Israel can interpret whatever they want on International law. Show arrogance of Israel and no wonder you have that kind of delusional arrogance.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Yeah right, you just shown Israel can interpret whatever they want on International law. Show arrogance of Israel and no wonder you have that kind of delusional arrogance.
Have you ever posted something that is not ad hominem?


Since every informative or analytical post turns into a multi-page battle of pedantry, I decided to now post like a proper "pro-palestinian" as well, at least for a week, and see where this is going.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Then in that case Israel could just ignore the resolution since it has no concrete definitions and can be postponed indefinitely.
No it can not. Israel is obliged to:

"accept and carry out the decision"

In other words, not ignore it.

Can you quote the specific part?

This is the 3rd time I'm asking for a quote, should I just consider it withdrawn?
We haven't even gotten to the part where you explain to whom the land does belong.
It's a very short resolution linked a few posts above. You should consider clicking on links and reading their contents. However, since you ask, here's the relevant part, hope this helps'

"The Security Council,
Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,
Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition
of territory by war and the need to work for a just
and lasting peace in which every State in the area can
live in security,
Emphasizing further that all Member States in their
acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have
undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with
Article 2 of the Charter,
1. Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles
requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace
in the Middle East which should include the applica-
tion of both the following principles:
(i) "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from terri-
tories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belliger-
ency and respect for and acknowledgement of
the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political
independence of every State in the area and
their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
2. Affirms further the
necessity
(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through
international waterways in the area;
( b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee
problem;
( c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and
political independence of every State in the · area,
through measures including the establishment of de-
militarized zones;
3. Requests the Secretary-General to designate a
Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States
concerned in order to promote agreement and assist
efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement
in accordance with the provisions and principles in
this resolution ;
4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the
Security Council on the progress of the efforts of
the Special Representative as soon as possible.
"
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Interesting. I actually didn't know this. So which country is it actually a part of? Egypt? Some sort of independent Palestine?
That's complicated. Not Egypt. Egypt formally relinquished any claim to it long ago, & had never claimed it was part of Egypt. It was governed as a separate terroritory under an Egyptian protectorate for some time, but was always legally distinct.

As far as I understand it, it's not part of any currently existing state, but would be part of a Palestinean state if there was an internationally recognised independent one.

What is it de jure?
Again, complicated. And disputed. But AFAIK nobody - not even Israel - officially considers it to be part of, or legally a possession of, Israel.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Have you ever posted something that is not ad hominem?


Since every informative or analytical post turns into a multi-page battle of pedantry, I decided to now post like a proper "pro-palestinian" as well, at least for a week, and see where this is going.
Ad Hominem? That's the best you always can get after you continue talking on land grabbing of what's left of Palestine ? Your retort not much different then most Israel and Pro Israel retorts to anything Pro Palestine as Anti Semite.

There are only two solutions either two state which mean two real independent sovereign state or one state where Israel absorb all Palestinian as citizens same level as their Jewish ones. I and others already say this in this thread for so long. There are no third solution of grabbing and absorb Palestinian land and cleanse out their Palestinian citizens.

All your ranting are just similar some Israeli excuses and justifications to do the third solutions. And all your response of Ad Hominem is just another way to hide that fact, just like any call of anti semitic to any pro palestine position. Basically it is just simply phatetic round around response.


This is just shown where the real ancient (biblical if you want to call it) population of that land are.
 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
Its only been of march this year when Palestine was voted in a a member of the U.N ,having previously been a non member observer state ,not all countries maintain diplomatic offices there
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
There are only two solutions either two state which mean two real independent sovereign state or one state where Israel absorb all Palestinian as citizens same level as their Jewish ones.
There IS a third solution - The Resistance wins and drives the imperialist colonialist occupier out of Palestine, and creates a proper Palestinian state according to Sharia law where Jews are respected and treated as equals like they always have been under Muslim rule.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
When you suggest all Palestinians do you include those forced out into countries like Lebanon there would be more displaced Palestinians than Israelis ? Only a small percentage currently in Jerusalem less than ten percent are Israeli citizens viewing this as complicity with occupation
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
There IS a third solution - The Resistance wins and drives the imperialist colonialist occupier out of Palestine, and creates a proper Palestinian state according to Sharia law where Jews are respected and treated as equals like they always have been under Muslim rule.
special taxes ,walking other side of road when a Muslim approaches ,remove shoes when walking in Muslim areas could be problematic for some
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
There's this bit of news circling in my feed today.
I won't talk about it specifically or the legitimacy of this information aside from saying media attention patterns indicate it's a low value item.
But the essence of it does illustrate a new opportunity for Israel, including in how it forms a strategy.

Right now we know multiple clans are operating in Gaza on Israel's behalf, doing a variety of tasks. From protecting GHF sites in the south, to clearing areas in the north.
In J&S there were also always collaborators but these are several orders of magnitude apart.
Technically the PA is cooperative with Israel but it so far refuses to take it a step further into de-radicalization. And the youth are further radicalized by its excessive corruption.
If a militarized clan in J&S was to take over from PA or Hamas territory, and would go these few steps forward of being more technocratic, work toward de-radicalization, and invest in popularity, then that would be a strategic shift for Israel.

First I'd like to estimate the basis for emergence of such parties:
  1. Armament - Obviously a prerequisite is armament and that could be from Israel, if they meet criteria.


  2. Power - Not values like democracy or LGBT rights, but who has the power and who can use it. Despite being the top dog of the entire MENA, Israel was passive, barely even reactionist. Until October 7th that is.
    Israel will therefore be judged on the universal challenge of being proactive in its defense. Not just until the war ends, but also in peacetime.
    It should matter to a rising party as a sudden Israeli decision to disengage could mean death for them.


  3. Interia - Past wars showed us Israel is eager to return to a status quo. Show muscle in a contained arena for a month or two, end it when the threat is more or less sufficiently diminished, and finish there. But Israel is not slowing down. It fought Hezbollah until a decisive victory, took up the Houthis' challenge and destroyed their economy, went head on with Iran and subdued it for a while, and is not letting the pressure off Hamas until either the hostages return or Hamas is destroyed, whichever comes first.
    This is of course connected to #2.


  4. Renegotiation - Israel seeks to renegotiate the power balance in the region, and set better conditions for itself going forward. This includes an anti-Hezbollah government in Lebanon, and the toppling of Assad. Both new governments consider normalization with Israel and entry into the Abraham Accords a possibility.
    Israel is very open about its desire to change the regime in Gaza, and this leads to point 5.


  5. J&S as a central front - Despite media attention being on Gaza, Lebanon, and Iran, the J&S front has been active for about as long as Gaza, and it's not particularly peace-keeping ops.


  6. Demolition - What characterizes all front on Israel's borders - Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, is demolition. And Israel is doing that in J&S as well right now, in areas known for being terrorist hotspots like Jenin.

This reminds me:
Demolition in Syria's Hermon.

The goal here is quite clear. Undo years and decades of terrorist infrastructure buildup. But that's the surface level of it. The deeper level is that Israel is determined to break the status quo and reshape the region to secure itself from any serious attack.
By far the biggest threat to Israel is not the rockets and missiles of its adversaries, but the economical impact of shutting down airports, businesses, and calling up working reservists.
When defense capability is often reduced to defense expenditure in % of GDP, economical performance has a tremendous impact on Israel's preparadeness for the next war.

What Israel can do:
  1. Set up "Emirates" in J&S and Gaza - Each capable of policing but nothing more.

  2. PA and Hamas would be replaced, as are Fatah and other hostiles.

  3. Israel could start a selection process for groups that are less antagonistic and extreme.

  4. Use these groups to negotiate a longer term solution that solves territorial issues.
    1. Including perhaps a Golan model in J&S. Western half (in a moon shape) + Jordan Valley to Israel, eastern half to the Palestinians.
    2. Perimeter (2km) in Gaza and northern Gaza to Israel.
  5. In exchange, Israel opens up economical integration options for them.
    1. The minimal bar is raised far high to include de-radicalization in schools and media.

Of course this is more of a ceiling to the potential of such development, and not the expectation.
Realistically, Israel should cultivate proxies in every Palestinian territory and continuously re-assess the development potential of such relationships.
If the Palestinians adopt such approach, this could also convince Israel to dial down rhetoric and potential efforts for displacement and relocation, simply by showing that it is no longer a necessity.
 
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