Middle East Defence & Security

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
I don't even say completely clean the other side, consider Netayathu calling Hamas an "asset", and viceversa.

If they clean the other side they wont have any violence to ride on to grip the power.

I lost any faith when Rabin was killed, and his murder instigator is now at the power.
Maybe I'm wrong but I do not recall any instance of an Israeli Prime Minister gaining popularity after a war.

I know there's this concept by which a war allows a leader to paint himself as the nation's guardian and be "Mr. Security", but that has a very different effect between a country in which people see the war on TV, and a country in which people see the war above their houses and in their streets.

One point of criticism against Netanyahu since his early days as PM is general inaction against threats. Rather than seeking wars, he sought to delay them. The general public is not fond of wars, but it is less fond of letting clear threats grow and lead to more destructive wars.

I understand why one might lose faith with Netanyahu in power. But I'm certain we'll be rid of him after this war. Israel had this semi-silent agreement that in wartime we're united and not protesting or looking for whom to blame. But Netanyahu has broken this taboo and it seems we're headed to renewed protests and I'm thinking they'll be greater than ever. According to a recent poll, 76% want him to resign either immediately or after the war.

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Maybe I'm wrong but I do not recall any instance of an Israeli Prime Minister gaining popularity after a war.

I know there's this concept by which a war allows a leader to paint himself as the nation's guardian and be "Mr. Security", but that has a very different effect between a country in which people see the war on TV, and a country in which people see the war above their houses and in their streets.

One point of criticism against Netanyahu since his early days as PM is general inaction against threats. Rather than seeking wars, he sought to delay them. The general public is not fond of wars, but it is less fond of letting clear threats grow and lead to more destructive wars.

I understand why one might lose faith with Netanyahu in power. But I'm certain we'll be rid of him after this war. Israel had this semi-silent agreement that in wartime we're united and not protesting or looking for whom to blame. But Netanyahu has broken this taboo and it seems we're headed to renewed protests and I'm thinking they'll be greater than ever. According to a recent poll, 76% want him to resign either immediately or after the war.

If Netanyahu placed country before self, that would be a good start but perhaps that is akin to asking the Donald to do the same thing, a bridge too far albeit he is considerably more capable than the Donald.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Iran reportedly giving Hamas its maximum thoughts and prayers.

As an observer, I can only speculate what was Hamas's leadership's thought process in the run-up to October 7th. However, one thing is clear, and that is that Iran's defense strategy is one that creates and maintains proxies with the intent to fight for it and keep Iran out of wars, not the other way around.

Iran is a powerful nation but is in a fragile and delicate state. It strives to obtain a nuclear capability to ultimately shield itself from without, and works on subjugating its population to shield itself from within. Perhaps achieve a similar status to North Korea whose leadership is considered untouchable. It does not have a clear interest in entering a war with Israel and the US when it knows it has much more to lose than them, and not much to gain in the first place. Would it gain popularity for it? That is supposed to be a non-issue in the first place, and it will certainly harm its legitimacy at home.

One factor for Iran to consider is that its nuclear program is vulnerable but the US and Israel need a casus belli and operational freedom. Joining the war on Hamas's side means giving them that casus belli, especially if Iran triggers Hezbollah for it. Which brings us to the next point.

Hezbollah is not Iran's way of destroying Israel. Rather, it is its deterrent against a strike on its nuclear program. At least that is its purpose for now.

The US and Israel have an interest in keeping Hezbollah out of it to better focus on Gaza. The best units are in Gaza and the war is already costly, material-wise. However if Hezbollah gives Israel no choice and enters a war, then Israel will no longer be deterred, and chances of it committing to a strike in Iran become significantly higher.

This does leave the Houthis in a peculiar situation - why would Iran use them in the first place? That I do not know, but I speculate that Iran sees an Israel-Houthi conflict as something that all sides agree to contain. It forces Israel to spread its defenses and air force to protect its southern flank and away from Iran's own strike assets, and the frozen state of the Houthi-Saudi conflict means their munitions need to be spent somehow.

One peculiar phenomenon in the Israel-Hamas war is Turkey's posture. A hardline approach was expected, but not of this magnitude. Erdogan's policies have also incited against the US, apparent in the allegedly organized storming of Incirlik airbase during Blinken's visit.

Some here may be aware of a 2010 incident between Turkey and Israel. A multinational flotilla set off in an attempt to "breach the Gaza blockade". The IDF ordered the ships to dock in the Ashdod port, from which any aid they wish to transfer can be loaded onto trucks and transferred via a land crossing, after inspection. Most ships agreed and indeed diverted. One ship, named Mavi Marmara, however, declined. The IDF prepared to take over the ship and manually divert it to Ashdod. As troops rapelled down onto the ship, at first for some reason unarmed, they were pulled, separated, beaten, and some even thrown over board. A second force came in with arms, killed a few assailants, and established control over the ship. Substantial quantities of cold arms were found, and parts of the ship were apparently salvaged before the incident for improvized weapons.

For those interested in the incident, here is a video explaining the timeline:
If you choose to not believe Israel's narrative, the video also contains footage from the incident.

Turkey responded to the incident by severing ties with Israel. This somewhat puzzled me, but Netanyahu chose to apologize for the incident in 2013. Since then, relations have been on and off.

It is now reported that another flotilla is planned, for the same purpose. I think I know how the IDF will react to this one as well, but this time it seems relations with Turkey cannot be any worse, at least on the surface level.

On the topic of Erdogan, what is presumed to be a Mossad bee attempted attack was foiled by Turkish security services.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Sooner or later like in any war, more clarity will come out, and not just some propaganda justification.


In the end when it is hurting you most is your wallet. We can talk about casualties, we can talk on pride, in the end back to your wallet. Everyone will see how far they can afford, especially for those who actually on better possition to begin with.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Sooner or later like in any war, more clarity will come out, and not just some propaganda justification.
Utterly disgusting that you would knowingly share fakes that accuse the victims.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
TheGrayZone is a fake news site.
They are left wing American, but not saying they are fake. They are not glorified Hamas, but shown confusion in Israel side on 7th of October. What fake on that. You are clearly not the trusted authority to call others fake because not agree with your line.


Or this is also fake to you too?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
I shouldn't have expected much more than simple ad hominem and whataboutism
Well so far that's also that you put from Israel side. Nothing more then accusing everyone else that's not working with Israel line are bias. Including UN and International opinion. Big whataboutism.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Well so far that's also that you put from Israel side. Nothing more then accusing everyone else that's not working with Israel line are bias. Including UN and International opinion. Big whataboutism.
Despite witnessing the most horrific and largest massacre of Jews since the holocaust, including several of my close friends who thankfully survived it, I have remained cool headed in this forum and even included in many cases other narratives, like the Hamas and Palestinian narratives. Even attributed some moral equivalence when there really wasn't any.

Yet you speak with hostility as if I am somehow your designated enemy and your web activity is monitored.
So I'll lay it clearly so you'll understand that you shouldn't see me as an enemy:
I am not a Jew.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
More strikes in Lebanon. This time, and the second instance as I recall since the start of the conflict in Lebanon, is a fairly high profile assassination.
Considering Hezbollah's massive arsenal, taking potshots at it will hardly make a dent without commiting to a campaign that will escalate things to full fledged war. But assassinations seem to be under the escalatory threshold, and that's what really hurts Hezbollah. In the end, organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas are just the people at the helm. Deter the helm - deter the entire organization.

Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, who appears to be much more united with rival Benny Gantz (National Unity party) than fellow party member and prime minister Netanyahu, on matters of the current war, implied that Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal will be assassinated. This could be a true intention to assassinate them, or similar to Hezbollah - drive them into hiding, thus simultaneously preventing succession and deterring them. The latter option is less likely IMO.
In a press conference he said:
Haniyeh and Mashal are living on borrowed time. They are marked for death. The war on Hamas is a global one. The terrorists in Gaza, as well as those flying in expensive jets and living in palaces.

It's not at all obvious how Israel plans on assassinating them. Qatar is not a friendly country to Israel, but it is friendly to the US, which makes it not that far off.
Qatar may not have the strategic need to keep Hamas housed there, as a mediator for the west, as Hamas are indeed marked for death along with its entire leadership. However it may want to maintain some appearance of strength. It is thus entirely possible that an arrangement will be found in which an assassination will occur outside Qatar.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
I have remained cool headed in this forum and even included in many cases other narratives, like the Hamas and Palestinian narratives. Even attributed some moral equivalence when there really wasn't any.
moral equivalence? You are attacking other posts that are not in line with your narrative. You call other whataboutism, when your post shown similar things against any agencies that not working with Israel agenda. What moral equivalence on that.

speak with hostility as if I am somehow your designated enemy and your web activity is monitored.
Hostility? You are the one that attacking my post first. Again what that grayzone article put, is nothing on glorifying Hamas, but shown confusion on Israel sides that attributes to some friendly fires. Seems you are the one that showing hostility toward anything not in your agenda.

I'll lay it clearly so you'll understand that you shouldn't see me as an enemy:
I am not a Jew.
Did any of my posts shown my 'hatred' to a Jew? Or are you simply put that conclusion base to where I'm coming from. Did any of my posts saying Israel has no right to exist? Or are you simply put anyone that say Palestinian right to exist, Palestinian right to be Free as equivalence as threat to Israel right of existence.

So let me make my self clear. I agree with Obama statement that what Hamas done is inexcusable, but also what Palestinian face for decades under occupation is also unbearable.

Israel Zionism not same with a Jew, and Hamas is not the same with all Palestinian. Pro Palestinian cause is not the same with pro Hamas or anti Jew.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
moral equivalence? You are attacking other posts that are not in line with your narrative. You call other whataboutism, when your post shown similar things against any agencies that not working with Israel agenda. What moral equivalence on that.
Moral equivalence between Israel-Palestine. That's what I was referring to. I am strongly against whataboutism, so if you can find a post in which I exercise that, give me a link and we'll talk about it and I'll gladly retract any such statement.


Hostility? You are the one that attacking my post first. Again what that grayzone article put, is nothing on glorifying Hamas, but shown confusion on Israel sides that attributes to some friendly fires. Seems you are the one that showing hostility toward anything not in your agenda.
The Gray Zone is a pro-Russia, pro-China, pro-Iran, and anti-Israel website. I have not read much of their content, but I have never seen them posting a factual article.
But even if we dive into the content in their article - they do not cite a single verifiable source.
They quote a person named Tuval Escapa. A quick google search indicates that he was only ever mentioned in that specific paywalled Haaretz article.
His testimony does not indicate any form of mass friendly fire incidents as indicated by the article. IDF troops were inside Israeli towns to clear them, but no concrete cases of friendly fire were reported. Bodies are still being analyzed and in the future that may clear up. But even if it did happen, it's a far cry from the extreme-left narrative that Hamas didn't know about the music festival or that the partygoers were all killed by the IDF.

Other than Tuval's short, ambiguous, and cherrypicked testimony, TGZ do not cite any source. In the editor's note they cite an alleged police report from an anonymous source to Haaretz that Israeli Apache helicopters fired on Israeli civilians. The report itself was denied by the Israeli police, which said that the police only investigated its own operations, not the IDF's, therefore it could not contain information on attack helicopter activities.


So the only source they cite is actually refuted by that same source, and the rest of the article is just speculation based on a false report. From there they dive into imaginary numbers of Israelis murdered by other Israelis to blame the victims of some false flag operation.


Did any of my posts shown my 'hatred' to a Jew? Or are you simply put that conclusion base to where I'm coming from. Did any of my posts saying Israel has no right to exist? Or are you simply put anyone that say Palestinian right to exist, Palestinian right to be Free as equivalence as threat to Israel right of existence.
Pushing the narrative of racist entities with racist agendas is in itself racist.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Moral equivalence between Israel-Palestine. That's what I was referring to. I am strongly against whataboutism,
Try to shown you have higher morality then Palestinian? So you are come out clean that your Israel having higher morality then Palestinian. People that's being occupied by Israel. Read again your posts on UN and others that not inline with Israel. Is all about whataboutism.


The Gray Zone is a pro-Russia, pro-China, pro-Iran, and anti-Israel website. I have not read much of their content, but I have never seen them posting a factual article.
Then shown the fact to contradict that. All you can say it is base from media that are not in line with Israel security forces. Israel sides is not high in credibility at this moment also. Greyzone is US base even leftist ones.

As for racist agenda. You are that pushing agenda not to accepting Palestinian sovereignty back on their land. Keep them under Israel watch. That's pretty racist.

Israel try to sell the world Free Palestine is racist, just like becoming anti Israel is anti semite. While they themselves continue teach their children to exterminate Palestinian. Or are you going to say those songs are false news too. Whose the racist now.
 
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