Merkava for Singapore ?

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hey OPSSG, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the Singaporean Merkava 4 rumour;
I treat this 'news' report as just a rumour for the time being. Doctrine needs to change of we are to move away from current armour platforms.

it affirms what I had read elsewhere about Singaporean defence procurement.
Just some open source ramblings from me. We even have totally imaginary threads, like the Midtguardian Defence Force, in the Geo-strategic Issues portion of the forums.

If I may, can I ask what are your thoughts about the recent (as well) JMMS announcement
I suspect that JMMS = LHA (and not a LHD)

and especially how does that tie in within a perceived desire to replace the Endurance
IMHO, a LHA will play a complementary role with existing LPDs in an amphibious group. The JMMS adds to existing naval capability because existing CONOPS will not enable us to get troops ashore anymore. It would become too risky (we will be dead ducks if we don't change, as things evolve).

The small USVs (like the Venus USV) carried by the Littoral Mission Vessels (LMVs) will do the mine clearing to clear a lane to shore for the landing craft/amphibious forces. The solution being developed is a package, which includes different types of UAS to perform different roles and carry varied payloads (i.e. a UAV is no longer called that - they are now called UAS). The LMVs will also provide naval gunfire support for landing forces (with the future ScanEagle UAV's replacement providing over the horizon situation awareness). There is also new software being developed for our surface ships (starting with the LMVs) that will improve our ability to provide responsive naval gunfire support.

Retired RSN staff also have a new long endurance USV developed for resupply mission in the littorals - they are trying to sell that solution to the Middle East. All these will come together later for a total ecology. What is being developed is not one platform. It's complementary platforms to enable a certain CONOPS -- it's all about system of systems engineering to develop the relevant solutions.

as well as the interest in the F-35B? I have read names like the Cavour, Mistral and San Juan being bandied about.
IMO, Singapore will acquire the F-35B - it a matter of time. Given that we are closing Paya Lebar in the 2030+ period.

One startling fact alot of Singaporeans don't realise - the US armed services host a number of SAF trainees; and in a US TV interview, the US Ambassador to Singapore, stated that there is no other country with more trainees, attending US courses, in CONUS (eg. Singapore Army Facebook posted the news that MAJ Feroz Bin Mohamed Akber recently graduated from the US Marine Corps Command and Staff Course as the Distinguished Graduate Award and the Brigadier A. W. Hammett Award, for the most outstanding paper by an international student).
...

Mistral is designed to be built in halves, right down the middile. While the integration between the two halves is easier than that planned for the Canberra it makes the ship's hull a nightmare. That Mistral is so bad is no suprise considering the Russians think it is good.
On the ship choice, definitely not Mistral - see above quote by Abraham Gubler from October 2010.

In April 2014, five Singaporean pilot trainees graduated in Italy (see here). I think you can figure out the rest. Keep in mind that the RSAF thinks that it is important that we have Italian speaking pilots, so that in future we can learn from their F-35B operations and CONOPS. And the RSAF have a number of air force trainees with the US Navy.
 
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fireduke86

New Member
I suspect that JMMS = LHA (and not a LHD)


IMHO, a LHA will play a complementary role with existing LPDs in an amphibious group. The JMMS adds to existing naval capability.

I recommend watching CSIS video on the US Army's Future Vertical Lift program - the winner of that would provide the JMMS an aircraft (aka Super Puma replacement in the far future).
Thank you once again for the excellent reply.

I was approaching it from a manpower point of view in that Singapore's military had continually reduce manpower requirements where possible as it upgrades/replaces its platforms in view of our shrinking and greying population. Therefore, to get the JMSS, I am sort of expecting that 1 or 2 Endurance would be "sacrificed" to provide the manpower. Of course, I am also swayed by the attached picture that hints at an Endurance replacement. I apologise for not clarifying in my earlier post which suggested the JMMS as a replacement of the Endurances.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Singapore has bought from a range of countries, including the Russian Igla. You it is a bit buy all over the place.
Singapore as they used the word is "kiasu"--closest meaning is overdoing it. Singapore is better off with more medium tanks or AFVs rather than MBTs.
The Malaysians not only spend less than Singapore, their government also spends their defence dollars more ineffectively. This is an opinion held not just by me but also by an external observer like Dana Dillion, writing on 'Security Challenges in Southeast Asia' in 1997 who said:

"From 1985 to 1993, Malaysia and Singapore spent roughly the same amount of money... Yet in all respects, Singapore's military is far more capable than Malaysia's armed forces... The MAF, on the other hand, still has shortfalls in operational efficiency, readiness, and sustainability." Further, "to replace one aircraft, the A-4, RMAF has purchased: the MiG-29, the F/A-18, and the Hawk-200. Further exacerbating the problem is the low number of each aircraft purchased, which makes buying spare parts and services relatively more expensive and retention of an adequate number of qualified crews considerably more difficult."​

When you look at the Malaysian defence spending pattern, it has quite a bit of ups and downs - demonstrating that it is not their national priority. If you look at SIPRI data, there was never a Malaysia-Singapore arms race. Rather, Malaysia spent money on defence whenever her budget allowed for it. In the last few years, the SAF has grown smaller. In fact, we have reduced the size of our air force (and even transferred 7 F-16A/Bs to Thailand), stood down some army units (infantry and artillery) reduced the duration of conscription and length of reserve cycles - because there is no peer threat. Beyond purchasing the Aster 30 and A330MRTT from the Europeans, to give you an idea of how SAF sources for weapons, here's a limited list as follows:-
(i) Swedish built submarines (i.e. 4 Challenger and 2 Archer classes of Swedish submarines) and mine sweepers (i.e. 4 Bedok Class), the ARTHUR weapon locating radar, the GIRAFFE series of radars for the RSAF/RSN. In particular, the Royal Swedish Navy played an instrumental role in helping the Singapore Navy develop its submarine capability;

(ii) French designed Frigates (Formidable Class), French built Super Pumas & Cougars, the Life Extension Programme of RSN's Swedish built Bedok class mine countermeasure vessels performed by Thales, the towed sonar array and the Herakles multi-function radar on the Formidable Class, Mistral missiles, and so on. The French Government is keen to cultivate close defence ties with Singapore and on 16 April 2014, Singapore and France marked a decade of Joint R&D, with Singapore's only offshore defence R&D laboratory located in France (see this post #69 for details);

(iii) since the German win of the design contract to build the 6 Victory Class corvettes from 1987 (each with 4× Maybach MTU 16 V 538 TB93), the RSN has increasingly depended on German engines for marine propulsion. For example, the 11 Fearless Class (2× MTU 12 V 595 TE 90 diesel engines, each), 6 Formidable Class (4× MTU 20V 8000 M90, each), and the forth coming 8 Littoral Mission Vessels (MTU 20V 4000 M93L diesel engines), along with the 2 Type 218SG submarines on order. The Singapore Army are users of the Leopard 2 and its derivative support vehicles; and Singapore built armoured vehicles, like the Bionix, Bronco, and Terrex also use German passive armour technology, from IBD. The Singapore Army also uses the MAN 16.284 LAERC 5 Ton Trucks, Leopard 2SGs and the German made M3G Float Bridges. Coupled with the fact that Singapore armour trains in Germany, Singapore pretty much entrust a significant degree of our defence needs to the Germans;

(iv) the acquisition of HIMARS, the Ford Everest utility vehicles, MaaxPro DASH MRAPs for the Singapore Army, and the acquisition of a range of American aircraft types for the RSAF/RSN (eg. F-15SGs, F-16C/Ds, Apaches, Chinooks, KC-135Rs and Seahawk naval helicopters) and even ScanEagle UAVs and Harpoon missiles for the RSN. Further, the back-bone of Singapore Tri-Service integration is built on American supplied Link 16 communications and encryption terminals. More importantly, even when a platform is 'Singapore-made', it can have significant American content (eg. Terrex Infantry Carrier Vehicle and Bronco All Terrain Tracked Carrier are powered by Caterpillar C9 and C3126B engines, the Primus has a chassis from United Defense and powered by a Detroit Diesel engine). Coupled with the fact that all three services of the SAF trains in the US and the ongoing intense defence cooperation, Singapore has placed its bet on a long term and strategic defence relationship with the Americans;

(v) Russian designed SAM missiles (Igla); and

(vi) Israeli supplied Spike anti-tank missiles, Protector USVs, Heron 1 and Hermes 450 UAVs, G550 AEWs, the Barak missile system on the Victory Class vessels, the EL/M-2238 3D-Surveillance & Threat Alert Radar on the Endurance Class, the Typhoon Gun stabilised gun system on various classes of RSN vessels, and the Spyder air defence anti-aircraft missile system, just to name a few. In Lee Kuan Yew's book, "From Third World to First: The Singapore Story 1965-2000," Singapore's founding father and its first prime minister, disclosed the secret that had been kept for almost 40 years: It was the Israel Defense Forces that had a critical role in shaping the Singaporean Army's doctrine when it was first founded. The Israeli military training mission to Singapore in the late 60s to early 70s was headed by Yaakov (Jack) Elazari, then a colonel, who was later promoted to brigadier general,​
making the SAF's supply network truly global. Having said the above, a reader can be forgiven in thinking that I'm happy with each and everyone of Singapore's arm's purchases. That is not the case. In actual fact, I have some concerns about capability gaps, deployability and sustainability due to platform age.

Singapore's air space is criss-crossed by a heavy volume of civilian air traffic; is protected by a customised fibre optic linked IADS, with a number of onion layers; these onion layers can discriminate between normal civilian air traffic with a filed flight plan, and any aircraft that deviates from its filed flight plan — this capability to conduct 24x7 homeland air defence and air sovereignty, was demonstrated on 23 January 2008, when a Cessna 208, flew into Singapore air space without an approved flight plan and failed to communicate with Singapore air traffic control — this resulted in the closure of commercial airspace for about 50 minutes (that disrupted 23 flights in and out of Changi Airport), while F-16s scrambled to intercept the Cessna 208. This was a sound tactical decision to ensure the safety of the civilian population. As the 2008 air intercept demonstrates, there various onion layers in Singapore's defenses.

(i) The outer most onion layer of Singapore's networked air defence zone, is provided by five fighter squadrons (including F-15SGs, F-16C/Ds and F-5s), whose intercepts may be guided by airborne controllers on the G550-AEW (or ground based controllers using the FPS 117, a 3-dimensional surveillance radar, which has a detection range of over 400 km), before coming into the range rings of the Aster 30 (or upgraded I-Hawk air defence batteries) that may be cued by Singapore's Shikra radar (which is based on the Thales Ground Master 200) or the Giraffe AMB radars or linked to the AN/TPQ-53 (V) counterfire target acquisition radar systems.

(ii) Below the outer air defence onion layer, lies the Spyder batteries; and thereafter, the short range air defence systems, like the Igla (including the Mechanised Igla squadrons), Mistral, RBS-70 and such other counter-fire batteries that may be adopted.

(iii) Even if these onion layers fail, dispersals are part of the RSAF's war plans. That is, if a RSAF aircraft cannot land at location A, then divert to location B, if location B is attacked, then divert to location C. The RSAF currently has 3 fixed wing air bases and at least 11 runways (not counting alternate runways or aprons). Therefore, runway cratering alone is not seen as the most effective way to keep a tertiary air force, like the RSAF from sortie generating, as runway repair crews are trained to conduct repairs in "nn" minutes.

(v) Further, to make things even harder for the attacker, the Singapore has an underground National Emergency System (NEST) and underground ammunition facilities (see here for more details). NEST controls more than 250 sirens that form Singapore's Public Warning System to alert Singaporeans to tune in for emergency broadcasts, warn of impending air/missile attack. Food security, energy security and the continued running of essential services such as fresh water, electricity and transport are among items addressed under NEST. The NEST checklist reads like a doomsday survivalist's manifest, but upsized enormously to protect Singaporeans should the worst happen.​

While the forum members don't take ourselves too seriously in discussions, our members have a thing against trolls, who can't follow the Forum Rules or take simple instructions from the Mod Team, not to continue to post one-liners and derail threads (eg. Phd8511 aka Jeneral2885 who was repeatedly banned for ignoring numerous warnings). Please note that a name appearing as pink in colour is a banned member.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
There five things to note about preparing for forward defence, in a Singaporean context, that I am sure you are aware of:-

  • the most dangerous war may not be the most likely;
  • you can only fight where your logistics reach; and the reach where it matters is the last mile;
  • there may be little room for grand maneuver, with terrain features; and once a SAF unit is deployed within an urban area, to achieve specific national objectives, it is stuck there until relief in place arrives;
  • just because the SAF wants to meet in decisive battle does not mean that the enemy will do so; and
  • just because Singapore wants to stop the war (and declare mission accomplished, after a 'swift and decisive victory'), it does not mean that the enemy will stop fighting because the enemy gets a vote.
Thank you once again for the excellent reply.
You are welcome and I hope to see more posts from you.

If you are interested, I recommend watching a CSIS video on the US Army's Future Vertical Lift (FVL) program (see: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhLBXjUyY6k"]Future Vertical Lift: The Next Generation of Rotorcraft - YouTube[/nomedia] ) - the winner of that may provide the JMMS with its vertical lift aircraft (aka Super Puma replacement in the far future). The maritimization of an aviation platform is a very extensive, technical thing. Currently, the US Army does not have platforms that are as well suited for operating at sea and suffer significant challenges but that will change in the FVL (which also awards points for building a vertical lift aircraft that suits the navy). FVL enables the US Army to:-

(i) create a replacement roadmap prior to the block obsolesce of existing army helicopters (i.e. to provide options for the leadership with options in the foreseeable future);

(ii) get started on early joint requirements development (i.e. multi-service requirements - aka things like maritimization, which is important to the USN);

(iii) mature key technologies to align with key decision milestones (for replacement) as the current helicopter fleet ages;

(iv) develop a family of aircraft and systems for the future joint force;

(v) use common systems and open architecture (more than just from a logistics standpoint). This includes the US Army leveraging on the US Navy's understanding of open systems architecture to develop common systems to be used by the FVL; and

(vi) get industry engaged with government (i.e partner with industry) to build FVL that flies faster, further and cost less per operating hour (see CSIS panel with the 4 industry contenders for FVL: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSgsRg95tno"]The Joint Multi-Role Technology Demonstration: Promise for the Future? - YouTube[/nomedia]). The FVL industry partners includes:-

(a) AVX Aircraft Company (offering a coaxial compound helicopter with ducted fans as their demonstrator);

(b) Bell Helicopter (offering a tilt rotor called the V280 as their demonstrator);

(c) Boeing-Sikorsky Team (offering a coaxial compound helicopter called the SB-1 Defiant JMR demonstrator); and

(d) Karem Aircraft (offering an optimum speed tilt rotor called the UTR-36 as their demonstrator).​

...to get the JMSS, I am sort of expecting that 1 or 2 Endurance would be "sacrificed" to provide the manpower. Of course, I am also swayed by the attached picture that hints at an Endurance replacement.
IMHO, it's not so simple simply because the plan to replace the various platforms in existing service is complex. More importantly, new/replacement platforms have new mission sets that did not exist in the same manner in the past. The 8 LMVs are a case in point. The LMVs are designed to carry 30 sailors (and in platform numbers less than the 11 Fearless Class & 4 Bedok Class) but when you add the mission module crew, it is another plus 30 (making it a total of 60). The 8 LMVs replace 15 vessels in 2 classes.

The RSN understands the risk of task saturation having lost one Fearless Class from an accident. They do not want this to happen again, which is why there is a limit to multi-tasking or training crews from multiple roles. Too much automation may result in no one knowing if someone is hurt on the ship, and if I am not wrong, one member of the Endurance Class crews died, when he was trapped by a door on one of these vessels. He was not discovered trapped for sometime and when they finally found him, he was dead, if my memory serves me correctly.

And in every deployment for operations abroad, both the Endurance (200++ crew for the Northern Arabian Gulf missions) and Formidable Classes (about 150+ crew for the counter-piracy missions) did not sail with the 'minimum' crew requirements. The actual manning required to fight the ship for the mission assigned in a high threat environment is different from published specifications - you can't just believe the brochure crew numbers from ST Marine.
 
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nairobian

New Member
I can't comment on Singapore and the Merk 4 but I do know its been tested somewhere in a Southern hemisphere country this year and the Brass loved it. Will open a specific thread on this when I have solid details.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
I can't comment on Singapore and the Merk 4 but I do know its been tested somewhere in a Southern hemisphere country this year and the Brass loved it. Will open a specific thread on this when I have solid details.
Thanks for the update and will look forward to your new thread on this. By the way, your 1st post got caught by the spam filter (and it needed to be approved, which I have done). I have just only approved it. Sorry.

If you have a problems with the spam filter again, please let any member of the Mod Team know and we will be pleased to assist. I have alerted the other Mods to the problem you faced and try to keep a special lookout to approve your posts.
 

nairobian

New Member
Thanks for the update and will look forward to your new thread on this. By the way, your 1st post got caught by the spam filter (and it needed to be approved, which I have done). I have just only approved it. Sorry.

If you have a problems with the spam filter again, please let any member of the Mod Team know and we will be pleased to assist. I have alerted the other Mods to the problem you faced and try to keep a special lookout to approve your posts.
Good to know! Was just about to PM you. The country that field tested them is facing
terror threats though they're not intended for that type of LIC. The possible war theatre is savannah and semi desert with little possibilities of FIBUA action like Lebanon. The potential enemy has mainly T-72 s,some Chinese models and may upgrade to T-90s.
The purchasing country liked the proven protection since none of the 4 Merk 4s penetrated by the advanced Kornet Es were destroyed. Also the possibility of carrying a half section in the rear was a plus.
Its 6 mn$ price tag compares well with the top 5 tanks. Btw,its a 3rd world buyer!
 

TankovayaVoyska

New Member
Since we are talking about Singapore's tanks here, I thought I'd might go off on a slight tangent, if the OP and the rest will permit me.

Is there any development in the active protection system department of the Leo 2s in service with Singapore. I am aware that Merkava IVs do have Trophy, which as of 2011 is battle-tested. Are there any plans to adopt an APS for Leo 2s, and would they only be used for urban ops, or will they also be mounted in conventional ops? (Though I loath to term it as conventional, the terrain your Leos are expected to operate is hardly ideal tank country, as is traditionally understood)

I hear the Germans came up with a direct energy APS, but my reading on that has been very rusty.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
With the hints given I could think about it being Colombia. Some of their borderline with Venezuela is dry and flat. The tone between them seems also to have become rougher in last years. And Venezuela added refurbished and upgraded T-72s to their inventory with T-90s being a natural addition due to ease of transition and their ties to Russia.

I don't think anybody south of the Sahara has the money for them not even the South Africans. And they could defenitely use a successor to their Olifant. And nobody north of the Sahara buys Israeli kit. So Africa should be out.

Armenians could also be possible as they bought Israeli stuff before and have potential enemies on their border with the mentioned tank park (not sure about the Chinese stuff though...).

Edit: I totally forgot to add the southern hemisphere bit into my thinking. Colombia is still in (kind of---;)) but Armenia is out.

I am still puzzled and eager for more infos! :D
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Do Kenya or other central African countries actually have the money?

I can see them getting older Mk.II or III but Mk.IV? Seems like a huge investment for them.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #33
Do Kenya or other central African countries actually have the money?

I can see them getting older Mk.II or III but Mk.IV? Seems like a huge investment for them.
Few Sub Sahara begin to piled up Flankers..eventhough they do not face immediate threat that really need Flankers. If folloeing that logic, and considering Isreal also will not found ready market for Merk...then some deal with Kenya can be designed by them.

Perhaps not brand new IV, but refurbished and upgrade III..it's already using same gun with IV and share many sub system. German can found market fot Leo 2 A4 and modified A4 like Leo2 RI. Perhaps Isreal tgen decided to keep the Merk line continued, they are ofering upgrade III or II with upgrafe kit to III+.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Few Sub Sahara begin to piled up Flankers..eventhough they do not face immediate threat that really need Flankers. If folloeing that logic, and considering Isreal also will not found ready market for Merk...then some deal with Kenya can be designed by them.

Perhaps not brand new IV, but refurbished and upgrade III..it's already using same gun with IV and share many sub system. German can found market fot Leo 2 A4 and modified A4 like Leo2 RI. Perhaps Isreal tgen decided to keep the Merk line continued, they are ofering upgrade III or II with upgrafe kit to III+.
The question still bags, did Singapore really buy 50 Merk IV as reported or was it a case of misinformation.

I still can't believe Merk IV would be purchased as they already have an MBT in the form of Leo2A4/SG, but nothing will surprise me when it comes down to Singapore.

I would rather see SAF upgrade the Leo2A4/SG with further to the Evolution standard. Besides, I think SAF still lacks a light tank in the MLC 40 class.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Besides, I think SAF still lacks a light tank in the MLC 40 class.
From a doctrinal standpoint, I believe (but I cannot confirm) that this is evolutionary dead end in armoured warfare moving forward.

I would be very surprised if the SAF acquires a light-tank as an AMX-13 replacement in numbers (as it traditionally is used for fire support). However, a light tank may have a role in amphibious and armoured fire-support or anti-tank/assault support platform, with non-line-of-sight missiles or such other similar technology (aka an AMX10P replacement in its role) is needed to cover existing capability gaps for the SAF. The LSV Mk 2 provides an interim and partial coverage of this capability gap but wholly inadequate in the 2020/3030s, if it is not augmented by other capabilities being developed now.
 
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fireduke86

New Member
The question still bags, did Singapore really buy 50 Merk IV as reported or was it a case of misinformation.

I still can't believe Merk IV would be purchased as they already have an MBT in the form of Leo2A4/SG, but nothing will surprise me when it comes down to Singapore.

I would rather see SAF upgrade the Leo2A4/SG with further to the Evolution standard. Besides, I think SAF still lacks a light tank in the MLC 40 class.
Mind sharing why would a light tank be an absolute must?

I have read of trials with a modified BX chassis and some foreign chassis with a 120mm gun but I assume those were unsuccessful since nothing had came out of those and SAF subsequently benefited from the Bundeswehr's fire sale of Leopard 2A4s. I suppose if there are available alternatives, SAF wouldn't have tried to develop a new model.

Would it not have been more economical to get more Leopard 2A4s/2SGs instead of presumably getting a new vehicle which would entail investments on development, training on a new platform, logistical support for the new platform in the ABGs, etc?

Besides, aside from the benefits of having more platforms available for fire support, I can't think of any benefits since the weight entailed would mean that it would not be much more protected than the BXs or AFVs around. I wouldn't even think that it would be cheaper than getting more Leopard 2s since we will need to develop and induct a new model.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Mind sharing why would a light tank be an absolute must?

I have read of trials with a modified BX chassis and some foreign chassis with a 120mm gun but I assume those were unsuccessful since nothing had came out of those and SAF subsequently benefited from the Bundeswehr's fire sale of Leopard 2A4s. I suppose if there are available alternatives, SAF wouldn't have tried to develop a new model.

Would it not have been more economical to get more Leopard 2A4s/2SGs instead of presumably getting a new vehicle which would entail investments on development, training on a new platform, logistical support for the new platform in the ABGs, etc?

Besides, aside from the benefits of having more platforms available for fire support, I can't think of any benefits since the weight entailed would mean that it would not be much more protected than the BXs or AFVs around. I wouldn't even think that it would be cheaper than getting more Leopard 2s since we will need to develop and induct a new model.
Not thinking about a 1-to-1 replacement of SM1. A 105mm or 120mm armed light tank that can be dropped by C-130 or even transported quickly from ship to shore via LCMs are highly desirable assets and capability for a mobile force which is what SAF is based on. Just image what firepower can light tanks add to the Guards units.

Furthermore, assuming a light tank with an autoloader like the M8 AGS require less manpower in the form of reduce tank crew, and being lighter also translate to easier logistic. Missiles armed platform in my mind just wouldn't work well as per shot is way too expensive and one probably wouldnt carry as many rounds as a light tank. The 30mm gun Bionix 2 also a little on the light on the hitting power side of things.

Just have a look at the US Army's experience with Strykers, they also found the need to have an AGS version of the Strykers. Besides, it has been said enough that SAF had tons of experience using tanks in the jungle and the AMX-13SM1 has been proven to be invaluable in fire support. I wouldnt think that you would see too many Leos bashing through the thick forest.
 

fireduke86

New Member
Not thinking about a 1-to-1 replacement of SM1. A 105mm or 120mm armed light tank that can be dropped by C-130 or even transported quickly from ship to shore via LCMs are highly desirable assets and capability for a mobile force which is what SAF is based on. Just image what firepower can light tanks add to the Guards units.

Furthermore, assuming a light tank with an autoloader like the M8 AGS require less manpower in the form of reduce tank crew, and being lighter also translate to easier logistic. Missiles armed platform in my mind just wouldn't work well as per shot is way too expensive and one probably wouldnt carry as many rounds as a light tank. The 30mm gun Bionix 2 also a little on the light on the hitting power side of things.

Just have a look at the US Army's experience with Strykers, they also found the need to have an AGS version of the Strykers. Besides, it has been said enough that SAF had tons of experience using tanks in the jungle and the AMX-13SM1 has been proven to be invaluable in fire support. I wouldnt think that you would see too many Leos bashing through the thick forest.
If it is in the context of your current post, then I suppose I can see merits in the arguments for an MLC 40 light tank. It is in the context of your earlier post that I wonder if SAF genuinely has any needs for a like for like SM1 replacement since whatever it can do, the Leopard mostly can and do it better too, not to mention the Leopard being more survivable overall.

As for it being air droppable, are you postulating it being used to support airborne operations? If not, why the need for this capability?
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not thinking about a 1-to-1 replacement of SM1. A 105mm or 120mm armed light tank that can be dropped by C-130 or even transported quickly from ship to shore via LCMs are highly desirable assets and capability for a mobile force which is what SAF is based on. Just image what firepower can light tanks add to the Guards units.

Furthermore, assuming a light tank with an autoloader like the M8 AGS require less manpower in the form of reduce tank crew, and being lighter also translate to easier logistic. Missiles armed platform in my mind just wouldn't work well as per shot is way too expensive and one probably wouldnt carry as many rounds as a light tank. The 30mm gun Bionix 2 also a little on the light on the hitting power side of things.

Just have a look at the US Army's experience with Strykers, they also found the need to have an AGS version of the Strykers. Besides, it has been said enough that SAF had tons of experience using tanks in the jungle and the AMX-13SM1 has been proven to be invaluable in fire support. I wouldnt think that you would see too many Leos bashing through the thick forest.
I think the AGS has been described rather colourfully as a "WOFTAM" in Australian service - 8 rounds of ammo mean it's not exactly cost effective.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
I think the AGS has been described rather colourfully as a "WOFTAM" in Australian service - 8 rounds of ammo mean it's not exactly cost effective.
I didn't think ADF has any AGS variant for their ASLAV-25. Only the US Army has the AGS variant.

BTW, the AGS mentioned here is the M8 Buford Armoured Gun System, also sometimes known as Thunderbolt for the 120mm variant.

I think there's definitely merit having a light thank that can drop in via C-130. As for the SAF, do they have such a need, for sure they do or did. Except ST couldn't make it work on both the Bionix chassis as well as the Primus' UCVP chassis. The Primus has been mistaken as artillery being mounted on a Bionix chassis, and in the earlier days of development as a Bionix MBT variant. This was brought about by the fact that the UCVP (which the Primus was based on) bears a superficial resemblance to that of the Bionix and the fact that ST Engineering had indeed at the time been experimenting on a light tank variant of the Bionix.

Have you guns checked out the Anders light tank from Poland. Now, this is a light tank I would say would fit into what I was talking about:

Anders 120mm Light Tank Expeditionary technical data sheet specifications description pictures video - Army Recognition - Army Recognition

Anders Prototype Light Tank | Military-Today.com

I sure can image ST license build some of these for the SAF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSPH_Primus#cite_note-4
 
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