Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[youpii]

They're gonna upgrade Monge in 2009 to track in M51 missile tests.

And i think she's also still in use to track Arianespace launches occasionally.

Yes, that does not sound like a 100% utilization.
We're speaking of a 22.000 tons ship here.

MN only needs 6 months per year. And Monge would be better than a ferry.

 

[youpii]

Singapore's LaFayette have Aster 15 missiles.
How much would it cost to fit that on the MN's LaFayette?
What about Cassard? The ship is not so old, would it be possible to remove the Tartar and put Aster15/30 ?

 

[kato]

What about Cassard? The ship is not so old, would it be possible to remove the Tartar and put Aster15/30 ?

The Cassards are supposed to be replaced in something like 10 years. Would be a waste of money in that context.

 

[youpii]

The Cassards are supposed to be replaced in something like 10 years. Would be a waste of money in that context.

Operating a ship with SM-1 missiles for the next 10 years also sounds like a waste of money. If we give him Aster missiles now, they can be later transferred to a LaFayette ship.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Operating a ship with SM-1 missiles for the next 10 years also sounds like a waste of money. If we give him Aster missiles now, they can be later transferred to a LaFayette ship.

The Cassards should be upgraded with SM-2 missiles. A SM-2 upgrade would be far cheaper than arming the Cassards with Asters.

 

[kato]

Is the Loi de programmation militaire 2009-2013 out yet? Should be either this or next month.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Is the Loi de programmation militaire 2009-2013 out yet? Should be either this or next month.

I don't know when the White Paper on Defense will be published? I have heard it may be published at the end of April or as late as sometime in June.

 

[kato]

There's a conference discussing it on 29th May, so it should be out by then.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Here's several quoted paragraphs from Francois Lureau, the Head of the French DGA.

"I don't know what President Nicolas Sarkozy's decisions are, but from what I have heard in Cherbourg, spending will not be cut. "I will not lower my guard," he said. It's hard to be clearer.

"We spend 9.5 billion euros on equipment. We will invest more to get to 11 billion. Financially, can we do it? That's what's behind [Defense Minister] Hervé Morin's cuts in back-office operations, to invest more in equipment. Eleven billion is the order of magnitude. You may have to stretch out this or that program. It's up to the president to decide. A large part of savings will come from the back office and another part from the president's choices in operational forces, where he says, "I want to do more of this, less of that."

source: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466951&c=FEA&s=INT

He said that the decision on the PA2 is up to Sarkozy. It will get built because Sarkozy would get destroyed by backers of the PA2. Last year, I read many articles about, how would the French find money to finance their procurement programs? The French MOD may save about as much as 4.5 billions euros a year by making the staff cuts. The French needed to increase their procurement budget by 5 billion euros a year; inorder, to fund all their procurement programs. They may have gotten the majority of the finances for their procurement programs, but some programs will still be cut. Major items like the FREMM, Barracuda, and Rafale should not face heavy cuts anymore.

 

[contedicavour]

Here's several quoted paragraphs from Francois Lureau, the Head of the French DGA.

"I don't know what President Nicolas Sarkozy's decisions are, but from what I have heard in Cherbourg, spending will not be cut. "I will not lower my guard," he said. It's hard to be clearer.

"We spend 9.5 billion euros on equipment. We will invest more to get to 11 billion. Financially, can we do it? That's what's behind [Defense Minister] Hervé Morin's cuts in back-office operations, to invest more in equipment. Eleven billion is the order of magnitude. You may have to stretch out this or that program. It's up to the president to decide. A large part of savings will come from the back office and another part from the president's choices in operational forces, where he says, "I want to do more of this, less of that."

source: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466951&c=FEA&s=INT

He said that the decision on the PA2 is up to Sarkozy. It will get built because Sarkozy would get destroyed by backers of the PA2. Last year, I read many articles about, how would the French find money to finance their procurement programs? The French MOD may save about as much as 4.5 billions euros a year by making the staff cuts. The French needed to increase their procurement budget by 5 billion euros a year; inorder, to fund all their procurement programs. They may have gotten the majority of the finances for their procurement programs, but some programs will still be cut. Major items like the FREMM, Barracuda, and Rafale should not face heavy cuts anymore.

I find Sarkozy's thinking on defence very enigmatic.
He's delaying decisionmaking and being very silent about defence policy.
With a slowing economy the budget deficit is already bound to go beyond the theoretical EU threshold of 3%, so defence procurement will continue to suffer.
I see eventually the PA2 to be confirmed, but all programmes will suffer from a mix of delays and number cuts.
Sarkozy's attempts to find customers for Rafale and FREMM are also somewhat linked to the necessity not to anger the Lagardere, Dassault and other barons of the French defence industry who have supported him. But for instance the FREMM Morocco will now order will clearly come from the 17 supposed to be built for the French Navy.

cheers

 

[youpii]

I find Sarkozy's thinking on defence very enigmatic.
He's delaying decisionmaking and being very silent about defence policy.
With a slowing economy the budget deficit is already bound to go beyond the theoretical EU threshold of 3%, so defence procurement will continue to suffer.
I see eventually the PA2 to be confirmed, but all programmes will suffer from a mix of delays and number cuts.
Sarkozy's attempts to find customers for Rafale and FREMM are also somewhat linked to the necessity not to anger the Lagardere, Dassault and other barons of the French defence industry who have supported him. But for instance the FREMM Morocco will now order will clearly come from the 17 supposed to be built for the French Navy.

cheers

I think he plan to cut a lot of back-office staff and buy most of the weapons.

 

[contedicavour]

I think he plan to cut a lot of back-office staff and buy most of the weapons.

Yes but as you know cutting public employment in France is a mission impossible, so you have to wait for people to retire and try your luck by not replacing them.
Even worse if the back office staff you are thinking of is civilian, because then we're talking of "fonctionnaires" and of their extremely powerful trade unions.
It's certainly not with a few hundred salaries saved that France will be able to afford all its planned acquisitions...

cheers

 

[youpii]

Yes but as you know cutting public employment in France is a mission impossible, so you have to wait for people to retire and try your luck by not replacing them.
Even worse if the back office staff you are thinking of is civilian, because then we're talking of "fonctionnaires" and of their extremely powerful trade unions.
It's certainly not with a few hundred salaries saved that France will be able to afford all its planned acquisitions...

cheers

Not a few hundred, 42.000 actually.
I can't post a link but you can google "42.000 défense" to see many newspapers talking about it.

 

[contedicavour]

Not a few hundred, 42.000 actually.
I can't post a link but you can google "42.000 défense" to see many newspapers talking about it.

Here we go with the official interview - thanks for the link.

Hervé Morin veut réformer la Délégation générale pour l’armement
Premier-ministre.gouv.fr
mardi 15 avril 2008, sélectionné par Spyworld
Hervé Morin a accordé, le 15 avril, un entretien au journal La Tribune. Il indique vouloir "que la réorganisation du ministère permette d’améliorer l’efficacité de l’ensemble de la structure" et prévoit une réforme de la DGA.
Lors de l’entretien, Hervé Morin a confirmé que les grandes lignes de la réforme participent à "l’objectif gouvernemental" de la Révision générale des politiques publiques (RGPP).

Les départs en retraite ne seront pas remplacés. Quelque 6000 postes civils et militaires par an sur une période de six à sept ans seront supprimés.

La réforme de la DGA qui verra ses attributions renforcées, devrait être effective au début de l’année 2009. Cette instance sera transformée en direction générale. Le déroulement des programmes d’armement devra également être amélioré. A ce titre, il est envisagé "la création d’un comité ministériel d’investissement" présidé par le ministre de la Défense.

Rappelant que le budget de la Défense a augmenté d’un milliard et demi d’euros entre 2002 et 2007, le ministre souhaite inclure dans la conduite des programmes "l’idée de stricte suffisance technologique et l’exportabilité de matériel". La DGA se verra confier l’instruction des dossiers d’autorisation d’exportation jusqu’ici répartis dans deux services différents au sein du ministère.

Dans la perspective d’un marché européen, Hervé Morin évoque la nécessité d’encourager une politique industrielle en développant des partenariats : "Il est clair que nous avons besoin d’avoir une réflexion à l’échelle européenne et pas seulement au niveau franco-français. Nous entretenons un dialogue avec les britanniques qui représentent l’essentiel de l’industrie d’armement en Europe. Il le faut aussi avec l’Allemagne et l’Italie", a conclu le ministre.

So yes it claims 6000 less personnel by year for 6-7 years, basically by not replacing retiring personnel. I wonder if he's talking civilian or military personnel or both. Given current salaries we're talking of approx 250 million euro saving per year supposing they all leave the 1st day of the new fiscal year. I'm curious to see this materialize ...

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Yes but as you know cutting public employment in France is a mission impossible, so you have to wait for people to retire and try your luck by not replacing them.
Even worse if the back office staff you are thinking of is civilian, because then we're talking of "fonctionnaires" and of their extremely powerful trade unions.
It's certainly not with a few hundred salaries saved that France will be able to afford all its planned acquisitions...

cheers

so back office members of french defence are unionised. Are soliders airmen

 

[contedicavour]

so back office members of french defence are unionised. Are soliders airmen

The civilian personnel is heavily unionised as all government employees, yes. Trade unions like CGT and FO are tough nuts indeed...
The military personnel aren't AFAIK

cheers

 

[Spacearrow99]

I find Sarkozy's thinking on defence very enigmatic.
He's delaying decisionmaking and being very silent about defence policy.
With a slowing economy the budget deficit is already bound to go beyond the theoretical EU threshold of 3%, so defence procurement will continue to suffer.
I see eventually the PA2 to be confirmed, but all programmes will suffer from a mix of delays and number cuts.
Sarkozy's attempts to find customers for Rafale and FREMM are also somewhat linked to the necessity not to anger the Lagardere, Dassault and other barons of the French defence industry who have supported him. But for instance the FREMM Morocco will now order will clearly come from the 17 supposed to be built for the French Navy.
cheers

There want be any massive cuts to the FREMM program like 5 or 6 vessels; they probably cut 2 or 3 LA FREMMs from the planned 17. Sarkozy already has a ton of bad press; he cannot afraid to crapple French defense spending. The French defence barons would turn against him, and the socialists would call him a lair because Sarkozy didn't implement his election promises. The White Paper on Defense and national Security will be published in early June.

 

[contedicavour]

There want be any massive cuts to the FREMM program like 5 or 6 vessels; they probably cut 2 or 3 LA FREMMs from the planned 17. Sarkozy already has a ton of bad press; he cannot afraid to crapple French defense spending. The French defence barons would turn against him, and the socialists would call him a lair because Sarkozy didn't implement his election promises. The White Paper on Defense and national Security will be published in early June.

I'll certainly be interested in reading it when it comes out in June !

The Socialists can't really attack him on defence matters, Segolene Royal, Fabius and the other party stalwarts were even for cutting PA2 or asking the UK to share one of their Queen Elizabeth carriers with France to make up for no PA2... never mind the fact that the Rafale are different from the F35B...

If the economy's growth falters in the coming quarters, and the budget deficit explodes, Sarkozy will have more urgent spendings to make to keep people happy than to increase the defence budget

cheers

 

[swerve]

...
So yes it claims 6000 less personnel by year for 6-7 years, basically by not replacing retiring personnel. I wonder if he's talking civilian or military personnel or both. ...

cheers

It says here both civil and military.

BTW, I think your calculation of savings is wrong. 250 million divided by 6000 is a bit over 40000. With payroll taxes and the general overheads of employment, average cost of employing a person is much more than salary, probably about double in France, so I think the actual reduction would be more.

 

[Spacearrow99]

I'll certainly be interested in reading it when it comes out in June !

The Socialists can't really attack him on defence matters, Segolene Royal, Fabius and the other party stalwarts were even for cutting PA2 or asking the UK to share one of their Queen Elizabeth carriers with France to make up for no PA2... never mind the fact that the Rafale are different from the F35B...

If the economy's growth falters in the coming quarters, and the budget deficit explodes, Sarkozy will have more urgent spendings to make to keep people happy than to increase the defence budget

cheers

Of course, the socialists can attack Sarkozy on defence matters. The socialists said that they were cutting defence spending. They could say that he laid to French voters about maintaining France's defence effort. Again, Sarkozy has had a of ton of bad press, and his poll numbers are very low. France has 3 major economic problems high taxes, welfare, and rigid labor laws. Sarkozy's economic reforms will take years before we see any major growth. France's estimated growth is below 2% for 2008. Sarkozy doesn't need retired French generals and admirals complaining about his defense policy.