Malaysian Army/Land forces discussions

[STURM]

The army has only recently started to train for combined arms maneuver warfare and rightly so because as you mentioned, the army is the right insitution to deal with external threats. What I mean is that the army should also focus on non-traditional threats, threats we are more likely to face. Can you name me any neighbouring country that is likely to invade Malaysia in the near future? By the same token I'm not saying that the army should cease its modernisation programme with the aim of creating a balanced all arms force.

Surely you're not suggesting the army should not train for any LIW scenarios and just leave it to the GOF? From what what little I know,in the event of civil agencies being unable to cope with a threat,the army will then be called in. What if the threat is thousands of refugees crossing the Kalimantan border or Thai insurgents operating from Kelantan? If you honestly believe that the PDRM's General Operations Force is equipped and trained to handle such scenarios, then I beg to differ with you. I'm not putting down the GOF or VAT69 but the Emergency was 40 years ago and would be very different from current LIW threats we face.

 

[renjer]

Can you name me any neighbouring country that is likely to invade Malaysia in the near future?

Thankfully, I cannot.

However, we must bear in mind that it takes many years to build the capability to repel a conventional invasion. Which means we should start sooner rather than later.

Surely you're not suggesting the army should not train for any LIW scenarios and just leave it to the GOF?

Why not?

... in the event of civil agencies being unable to cope with a threat,the army will then be called in.

To assist, yes. But not as the primary force.

What if the threat is thousands of refugees crossing the Kalimantan border or Thai insurgents operating from Kelantan? If you honestly believe that the PDRM's General Operations Force is equipped and trained to handle such scenarios ...

Yes, I do.

They are policemen, after all. Handling large groups of civilians, such as refugees, is what policemen do.

Also, a police GOF battalion is equipped for counter-insurgent operations and the policemen assigned to these units are trained for such operations.

... then I beg to differ with you.

Ok, I'll agree to disagree with you.

I'm not putting down the GOF or VAT69 but the Emergency was 40 years ago and would be very different from current LIW threats we face.

The 40 years that has passed since the Emergency also applies to the army. Any deterioation in the GOF's COIN skills will also apply to the army. If the LIW of today is so different from the COIN of yesterday then, by all means, start training the GOF now. Leave the army to concentrate on conventional or high-intensity warfare.

 

[STURM]

LIW threats today and what countries are likely to face in the near future will be very different from the Emergency. Take Iraq as a worst case scenario and Southern Thailand at the lower end of spectrum. Or Pakistan. I do not claim to be privy to any inside info but from what i've heard, the GOF's counter insurgency skills, and to a lesser extent the army's, have suffered a bit. which is expected given the army's change of empasis. As you're no doubt aware, skills painfully acquired over the years will lapsed if not mantained through hard training. At the moment the army is neither here nor there, in a transition, its not fully ready or equipped to repel an external threat, nor is it ready to deal with LIW threats. And yes, I am fully aware that creating a modern army takes time, but so does developing the skills needed, plus the right mindset and doctrine.

 

[DavidDCM]

I think we should first agree on the size of the operation we are talking about. The army is able to launch much bigger scale operations than the police, and thus it depends from the strength of the enemy and the size of the affected area which of the two branches should be responsible. If a splinter group of the Southern Thailand insurgents would come to Malaysia and threaten the local people, then the GOF of course should handle the operation (I'm also not familiar with their current state of readiness, but in theory, they are). They are not normal police, they are a paramilitary force and able to take on such terrorist forces. But if the nation itself is in danger of losing it's integrity or even of being completely toppled by armed separatist groups like Iraq or Pakistan, it's a completely different matter. Than off course it would need the military to get control of the situation, basically because this is a situation of war, and not a situation of mere law breaking.

 

[STURM]

DavidDCM, since the end of the Emergency, the GOF has been used mainly to guard the northern border. Its 18 battalions on paper does seem impressive but in reality very little funding has been provided for new equipment. Apart from MP-5s, MAG-58s and M16A1s I'm not sure what they're armed with. Then again, for their role heavier stuff is not required. Nor are they trained to deal with terrorists or hostage taking, those are jobs for VAT69.

There was never really a fear of Thai insurgents harming locals on the Malaysian side of the border. The fear was of the insurgency getting out of hand in Patani leading to Thai military or para-military units crossing the border to seek out insurgents and supporters who had fled across. Another possibility was of thousands of refugees pouring across the border, leaving the police totally overwhelmed and unable to contain the problem.

 

[DavidDCM]

Refugees are a humanitarian issue. It would not be a combat operation anyway, so both branches should work hand in hand to handle the problem.

If Thai military forces cross the border without Malaysian permission than we have a border violation and yes, than the army should be called in. In this case the Malaysian territorial sovereignty is not respected by Thailand anymore and as it is the army's job to guarantee the territorial sovereignty, they should handle the matter.

I would like to know more about the current role of the GOF in the Malaysian security concept. With the anti-communist fighting being over, it seems they are lacking a proper task to fulfil in modern Malaysia. Do you know any good reads on the subject? I only found the Wikipedia article, which is not very informative.

 

[STURM]

David, sorry I'm not aware of good published references to the GOF. Since the official end of the Emergency in 89, I believe they spend most of their time policing the Thai/Malaysian border. As you're no doubt aware, they used to be called the Police Field Force, in line with their new role they were re-designated as the General Operations Force. I'm also not sure sure how much time they still spend on jungle training and COIN. The police has a fleet of V-150s and Saxons, but I'm not sure if these are operated by the GOF. During the Emergency, the police actually had a had a higher kill rate than the army. I do however have a book about VAT 69. If you want, I''d be happy to send you a xerox copy, let me know.

The link below [Al Jazeera feature] has some footage of the GOF along the border.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqWvWJJeqLw]YouTube - Thailand / Malaysia Border - 18 Nov 07[/ame]

 

[DavidDCM]

Thanks for the info, Sturm.

The policemen in the video above wear a blue camo-patterned uniform. Is this only worn by GOF or is also by other policemen? I know that UTK and VAT 69 have their own pattern, but what about normal police?

In regards to the book, I will get back at you via private message

 

[STURM]

David, unless I'm mistaken that pacticular uniform is only worn by the GOF. Normal policeman dont have camo uniforms. In recent years, a whole new set of camo uniforms have been introduced for various government bodies and military units. The MMES's special unit wears the US ACU, PASKAL wears a copy of the US Woodland. If the RMN ever get its way and forms its Marine Regiment, they will probably have their own cammo. Soon we'll be like Russia where even the Ministry of Power and Energy has its own cammo, so do many private secury agencies!

 

[DavidDCM]

Alright, so all these guys in blue are probably GOF. Thanks for the answer.

I had a few thoughts about the topic. I think today the GOF's job is basically that of a border patrol police. Meaning patrols, checking people, preventing illegal border-crossing by show of force.

Jungle warfare is probably not trained by them. They simply don't need that. The only exception would be the Senoi Praaq battalion, who were raised as jungle fighters and probably retained this ability until today.

If something needs to be done in the jungle, for example if criminal suspects or terrorists hide out somewhere deep in the woods, it's not the normal GOF that is called in but rather Senoi Praaq or VAT 69. If even these two units can't handle the operation than we probably have a situation where the military needs to be called in anyway, because that would mean that some real big mess is going on there.

 

[STURM]

David, GOF used to be called Polis Hutan [Jungle Police] in Malay. Their training base is in Ulu Kinta in Perak. Perhaps Dzirhan would be able to shed some light with regards to the GOF's level of training, organisation and post-Emergency roles. Training for VAT 69 was first done by the Kiwi SAS. As for Gerak Khas it was the Royal Marines.

Ironicly, a few years after the Confrontation, Gerak Khas sent a team to Java for training. A year later, a Kopassus team arrived in Malaysia for training and undertook joint patrols along the Kalimantan border. What i find really bizzare is that at the request of the Indonesians, Malaysia returned AK-47s that were captured during the Confrontation,
because the Indonesians urgently needed them for their own counter insurgency operations. These are all mentioned in Ken Conboy's 'Kopassus'.

Anyway, since we're on the subject of jungle warfare, to those interested, here are some nice clips taken during the Emergency and Confrontation. No doubt, Filem Negara probably has a lot showing local troops, in its archives.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX9nsUOMGiE]YouTube - Malaya patrol[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgqOZYpHsyI]YouTube - Australians at War. Malaya & Indonesia[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLY54ytXfss&feature=PlayList&p=A91C429C0C41EB35&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1]YouTube - Malaysia: Kuala Medang, Pahang, fighting,1952.[/ame]

 

[renjer]

... since the end of the Emergency, the GOF has been used mainly to guard the northern border.

Not entirely correct. They are actually quite spread out across the country. You can get a feel of this from the battalion location table in Wikipedia.

For instance, 3 battalions alone are deployed to guard the east coast of Sabah.

 

[renjer]

I had a few thoughts about the topic. I think today the GOF's job is basically that of a border patrol police. Meaning patrols, checking people, preventing illegal border-crossing by show of force.

Jungle warfare is probably not trained by them. They simply don't need that. The only exception would be the Senoi Praaq battalion, who were raised as jungle fighters and probably retained this ability until today.

In the past every policeman, including those not assigned to the GOF, would receive jungle warfare training. I don't know if this is still true with the end of the Emergency. Some boys who recently joined the police and are assigned as ordinary beat cops told me that they are still trained for jungle operations though this might not necessarily be for jungle warfare. The jungle is still Malaysia's wilderness environment after all.

If something needs to be done in the jungle, for example if criminal suspects or terrorists hide out somewhere deep in the woods, it's not the normal GOF that is called in but rather Senoi Praaq or VAT 69. If even these two units can't handle the operation than we probably have a situation where the military needs to be called in anyway, because that would mean that some real big mess is going on there.

This would depend on which unit was available nearest to the incident. For instance, it would not be practical to wait for the Senoi Praaq or Komando 69 to be airlifted to the east coast of Sabah from the Peninsular. Only if the situation required the specific skills of the 2 units mentioned would these be called in.

Just a note, my understanding is that Senoi Praaq is now a jungle tracker unit.

 

[renjer]

I would like to know more about the current role of the GOF in the Malaysian security concept. With the anti-communist fighting being over, it seems they are lacking a proper task to fulfil in modern Malaysia.

David, I am curious. What does the German Border Police do? Are they a separate organization from the normal police? Or part of it like the GOF is of the PDRM?

Perhaps a role for the GOF would be one similar to the Gendarmes of France. Which I assume is internal security.

 

[DavidDCM]

Renjer, the German border police was an agency of it's own, and not part of the normal police. But today Germany has open borders with all it's neighbours, so in 2005 the border police (BGS) has been disbanded and reorganized into the Federal Police.
In the very early years after World War 2, the BGS was a paramilitary force, and as Germany did not have a military until 1955 the BGS was effectively the defence force of young Germany. But when the real German army was founded, the BGS's role became less important and when finally the Europeans started to get more friendly to each other in the 1990's the BGS was gradually transformed into the Federal Police.

But this is very off topic

 

[STURM]

David, here's a few tank related questions for you... You mentioned in another forum that the Vigy 15 on the PT-91M is not equipped with a thermal for the commander. I was really suprised to learn this. Eveything else was done,
[1] Slovakian gun
[2] Vigy 15
[3] EADS fast turret drive
[4] mine protected seat for the driver
[5] uprated engine and new transmission
[6] Thales comms
[7] co-axial MAG58 and pintle mounted HMG
[8] new FCS
BUT no thermal for the commander.
Doesn't the commander not having a thermal defeat the the purpose of having a panaromic sight with 360 coverage. Correct me if i'm wrong but the whole point of having a panaromic sight is so the crew is provided with a hunter killer capability, the abilty to engage a target whilst the commander is acquiring other targets. Do you know if the driver has an II or a thermal? Despite earlier reports that Wegmann smoke launchers had been selected, I believe the PT-91 still has the Polish ones.

 

[DavidDCM]

Hunter-Killer in this case only works during daytime, not in the nighttime. This is a definite lack of capabilities. Thermals are very expensive equipment, so I guess it was the price that caused Malaysia not to go for a thermal periscope for the commander. Either this or inexperience with tank warfare. Instead of the Vigy 15, they could for example have been gone for the MVS 580 from the same company. The MVS 580 has a thermal imager and a laser-rangefinder and has succesfully been combined with the Savan-15 gunner's sight in the Challenger 2E tank.

I do not know for certain, but I would be very surprised if the driver has a thermal. It's not needed for him. He only has to see the road a few metres in front of him, not kilometres away like the gunner. So a cheap image intensivier is good enough.

 

[margerm]

Alright, so all these guys in blue are probably GOF. Thanks for the answer.

David, the GOF is currently in the process of changing that blue camo into a dark green/blue camo (subdued woodland pattern). That clip is an old one, taken back in 2007.

 

[STURM]

Here's a link to an article about Malaysian special forces in the December issue of Special Weapons. One of the best articles in English to have been written about special forces in Malaysia.

Tactical-Life.com Malaysian Special Forces

 

[DavidDCM]

I got one more question that puzzles me quite a bit. It is about the coexistence of both the Malaysian Police's "UNGERIN" maritime enforcement unit and the Malaysian Coast Guard's (MMEA) "STAR" maritime enforcement unit. They appear to me as being almost identical in their scope of duties. Only that one belongs to the Police and is made up of Police officers and the other belongs to the Coast Guard (which is under the Armed Forces supervision) and thus is made up of military servicemen.

If Piracy (or a similar event) occurs, when is Ungerin called in to handle it, and when is Star called in to do it? Is this a simple question of "the one who is nearer" or is it a legal decision that has to be decided on grounds of Malaysian law?