Major new US Coast Guard cutter?

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sure, but you don't really need STANFLEX for that part. MEKO has the same plug-and-play modularity for maintenance reasons built into every single piece of equipment onboard, used by nearly a dozen navies.

Of course with LCS it's also not the effectors that are decisive. The whole weapons suite on a LCS amounts to what, 5% of its unit cost? If you really want to play with modularization and saving cost, you'd build it so you can switch out the gas turbines as needed. Or the radar. Or you modularize the FCS to a point where you simply plug in additional computation, interface or input devices as needed.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Sure, but you don't really need STANFLEX for that part. MEKO has the same plug-and-play modularity for maintenance reasons built into every single piece of equipment onboard, used by nearly a dozen navies.
According to the open literature, despite a much larger installed base, attempts at swapping out modular components in MEKO design units has never been successful outside a shipyard overhaul because of major fit-and-trim problems.

StanFlex has a better reputation in this regard, but I suspect that this is mostly due to it being almost exclusively used by the nation in which the firm that designed and built all the ships and modules resides. Being able to immediately ‘lean’ on the manufacturer if anything goes wrong makes a huge difference in quality control.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
attempts at swapping out modular components in MEKO design units has never been successful outside a shipyard overhaul
I'm talking about swapping for maintenance reasons above. The prime example referred to earlier would be leaving out components, centrally storing them and simply installing them when required, preferably outside a shipyard and within a rather short timespan. This is perfectly doable with Meko, and has been done.

Being able to immediately ‘lean’ on the manufacturer if anything goes wrong makes a huge difference in quality control.
In my opinion the Danish Navy has rather ... modular quality requirements. See Absalon and their not-quite-military cost-cutting design.
 

Belesari

New Member
I'm talking about swapping for maintenance reasons above. The prime example referred to earlier would be leaving out components, centrally storing them and simply installing them when required, preferably outside a shipyard and within a rather short timespan. This is perfectly doable with Meko, and has been done.


In my opinion the Danish Navy has rather ... modular quality requirements. See Absalon and their not-quite-military cost-cutting design.
The danes dont really swap though. One of the problems is that the module swapping means that you must,

a) train the crew on ALL modules which is strange because not all modules need the same amount of crew to operate and it is very expensive and if you train on one more than the other you will develop weaknesses.

b) train crews for the specific modules...which presents its own problems. Among them crews are like armies you cant just switch them back and for and expect excellence. Every commander has certain ways of doing things and things to expect. Then there are the ways crews interact. One half of the crew would always be strangers.

The Danes dont switch modules much. They stick to one set mostly. At the end of the day the modular design both fails to deliver and works for a different reason.

Modular works because it means you dont have to strip and rebuild a ship over months to equip a new weapons system. Then train and work the kinks out over more months. It gives the ship almost the flexibility of a carrier in that to update or increase the lethality of the ship simply requires a change of weapons systems and training that instead of months can be done in weeks.

It fails because this change of systems cant happen in the quick style the Navy for saw (as in a couple days which even they have admitted was more of a long shot at best) instead takes a couple weeks maybe even longer. And because of crew and such issues.

If the Navy is smart (which i believe it is) and looks at what has been done i think they can take the experiences and knowledge they have gained from the LCS, DDG-1000, and other such programs and use them to develop better practices, better warships, crews, and tactics. If not we continue wasting untold billions on half good half bad idea's which we should have known better.

I know these are the rantings of a rank amature but, a amature who has had his feed his views with the experience of people who are most deffenitly not either inexperienced in there assessment of the situation.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Here's a little more detail on the tender.

The home site for the tender is here:
USCG: Offshore Patrol Cutter

And the Concept of Operations document there gives the greatest detail of what they are looking for.
The intro:


The tender has just reached the 'final Request for Proposal' stage, & they are looking for up to 11 ships.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...b21b97a5b99135ce1238d0e6e18&tab=core&_cview=1
Since the Coast Guard need so many OPCs, they are planning to get more than one shipyard involved unlike the larger NSCs. I hope we end up with a ship closer in size to the Famous/Bear 270 feet class than the Reliance 210 feet class. Now that two NSCs have been cut, I pray the OPCs order increases by two ships.
 

Twain

Active Member
The time between UNREPs is not directly comparable to total endurance. Besides increasing endurance underway UNREPs allow the ships to keep their supplies topped off, so that the vessel is ready if maximum endurance is required.

The question is how often does a Burke class destroyer or a CVN undergo an UNREP when part of a CVBG? This paper https://www.navalengineers.org/Site...eedings Documents/AD 2009/Papers/MillerMO.pdf seems to indicate that a CVBG would UNREP every 7 days at a normal operating tempo, or every 2 or 3 days in high tempo operations. So maybe an UNREP every 9 days isn’t significant.
I understand that but it doesn't really address my point. USCG medium endurance cutters can go for about 3 weeks without unrep and 6-8 weeks max. The LCS needs unrep approx every 9 days, more often if they use anything besides the diesel engines. 9 days may not meet their requirements for a medium endurance cutter.
 

Belesari

New Member
I understand that but it doesn't really address my point. USCG medium endurance cutters can go for about 3 weeks without unrep and 6-8 weeks max. The LCS needs unrep approx every 9 days, more often if they use anything besides the diesel engines. 9 days may not meet their requirements for a medium endurance cutter.
True plus they are optimized for high speed.

And personaly i doubt they are up to facing the storms and conditions the USCG puts its ships through.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I understand that but it doesn't really address my point. USCG medium endurance cutters can go for about 3 weeks without unrep and 6-8 weeks max. The LCS needs unrep approx every 9 days, more often if they use anything besides the diesel engines. 9 days may not meet their requirements for a medium endurance cutter.
Simply put navy ships are deployed in battle groups with a replenishment group, coast guard cutters aren't. Probably our most important and vital fishery to protect is our Alaskan fisheries. Only heavy endurance cutters can deploy to the Bering Sea for several weeks and back to their homeport of Alameda, California. Without a replenishment ship a Burke class destroyer would be stranded in the Bering Sea.

The new forthcoming OPCs are medium endurance cutters designed more for our coastal fisheries among the continental 48 states, with the range to deploy to the Caribbean patrolling our fisheries off the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico Medium endurance cutters can also deploy off our Pacific islands fisheries as well home based from Pearl Harbor.

The numbers for NSCs didn't come by chance, to deploy to Alaska and the Bering Sea we need so many. The Coast Guard got out of the ASW escort missions twenty years ago. It has enough on its hands with the funding it gets to do EEZ patrols, even as far as the Bering Sea. Alaska is a very big state.
 

fretburner

Banned Member
Simply put navy ships are deployed in battle groups with a replenishment group, coast guard cutters aren't. Probably our most important and vital fishery to protect is our Alaskan fisheries. Only heavy endurance cutters can deploy to the Bering Sea for several weeks and back to their homeport of Alameda, California. Without a replenishment ship a Burke class destroyer would be stranded in the Bering Sea.
Seriously? I thought Burkes are supposed to go anywhere? And haven't they been deployed on their own for the BMD roles? I never thought the NSC would have more endurance than a Burke.

Edit: a quick google and wiki (I know) had the NSC range at 12,000 NMI vs the Burke's 4,400 NMI. Wow.

I guess I really don't understand the word "endurance". Yeah, I'm looking at range as an "indicator" for "endurance.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Seriously? I thought Burkes are supposed to go anywhere? And haven't they been deployed on their own for the BMD roles? I never thought the NSC would have more endurance than a Burke.

Edit: a quick google and wiki (I know) had the NSC range at 12,000 NMI vs the Burke's 4,400 NMI. Wow.

I guess I really don't understand the word "endurance". Yeah, I'm looking at range as an "indicator" for "endurance.
Endurance involves more than just fuel, food and supplies are also involved. The US Navy has bases abroad, and uses bases of allies as well. Furthermore, the Navy has replenishment groups deployed alongside our carrier battle groups and amphibious groups which are deployed. On the other hand the USCG doesn't have replenishment groups, much less very many cutters deployed abroad. No wonder why, the coasties are too busy patrolling our own EEZs. The CG does have bases in Alaska and around the United States, but the big one on Kodiak Island isn't all that close to Bering Sea operations. Of course, that doesn't mean the CG won't deploy a cutter abroad, but when it does so it taps the Navy's replenishment assets In the Indian Ocean for example. And sadly, the Navy does not deploy replenishment groups to the Bering Sea very often.

To understand Bering Sea operations, one might get a clue a little bit if they watch the Discovery Channel's The Deadliest Catch reality series. Dutch Harbor is key, not Kodiak.

The Coast Guard was wanting 8 NSCs, but have been trimmed to 6. The Coast Guard will need all 6 for far flung Pacific and Alaskan operations just to patrol our EEZs. 2 had been planned to be based on the east coast, but they have been cut, and all 6 will be based on the west coast.

The point is a cutter isn't replenished every seven days alike a navy warship.
 

History1

New Member
Endurance involves more than just fuel, food and supplies are also involved. The US Navy has bases abroad, and uses bases of allies as well. Furthermore, the Navy has replenishment groups deployed alongside our carrier battle groups and amphibious groups which are deployed. On the other hand the USCG doesn't have replenishment groups, much less very many cutters deployed abroad. No wonder why, the coasties are too busy patrolling our own EEZs. The CG does have bases in Alaska and around the United States, but the big one on Kodiak Island isn't all that close to Bering Sea operations. Of course, that doesn't mean the CG won't deploy a cutter abroad, but when it does so it taps the Navy's replenishment assets In the Indian Ocean for example. And sadly, the Navy does not deploy replenishment groups to the Bering Sea very often.

To understand Bering Sea operations, one might get a clue a little bit if they watch the Discovery Channel's The Deadliest Catch reality series. Dutch Harbor is key, not Kodiak.

The Coast Guard was wanting 8 NSCs, but have been trimmed to 6. The Coast Guard will need all 6 for far flung Pacific and Alaskan operations just to patrol our EEZs. 2 had been planned to be based on the east coast, but they have been cut, and all 6 will be based on the west coast.

The point is a cutter isn't replenished every seven days alike a navy warship.
Endurance involves more than just fuel, food and supplies are also involved. The US Navy has bases abroad, and uses bases of allies as well. Furthermore, the Navy has replenishment groups deployed alongside our carrier battle groups and amphibious groups which are deployed. On the other hand the USCG doesn't have replenishment groups, much less very many cutters deployed abroad. No wonder why, the coasties are too busy patrolling our own EEZs. The CG does have bases in Alaska and around the United States, but the big one on Kodiak Island isn't all that close to Bering Sea operations. Of course, that doesn't mean the CG won't deploy a cutter abroad, but when it does so it taps the Navy's replenishment assets In the Indian Ocean for example. And sadly, the Navy does not deploy replenishment groups to the Bering Sea very often.

To understand Bering Sea operations, one might get a clue a little bit if they watch the Discovery Channel's The Deadliest Catch reality series. Dutch Harbor is key, not Kodiak.

The Coast Guard was wanting 8 NSCs, but have been trimmed to 6. The Coast Guard will need all 6 for far flung Pacific and Alaskan operations just to patrol our EEZs. 2 had been planned to be based on the east coast, but they have been cut, and all 6 will be based on the west coast.

The point is a cutter isn't replenished every seven days alike a navy warship.
That is well put. The conditions of the open ocean and requirement of operation at sea for long periods without resupply or refueling is essential to task.
True - the protection of economic zone and the approaches to it by foreign vessels, are now, alongside life-saving rescue, the priority of (the strategic and tactical goal) the USCG. These two entries of higher priority among the several other jobs it is tasked with. The I.D. and handling of potential terrorism by ship as vehicle figures prominently is this new era of tasks faced by USCG. The protection of the economic zone (including the rightful seizure of violating ships) emerges as the great area of requirement in this new era. One of the areas requiring more attention is the protection of the fisheries. Alaska is vital. This is also becoming an alarming problem in the Pacific (U.S. Territories, and assistance to Federation of Micronesia).
The requirements of USCG vessel is unlike naval warship. This type must operate on it's own without being dependent on other ships or aircraft to be near and ready to serve it, in time and proximity to immediately replenish.
It does not need modular change-out features; it's weaponry does not require it to counter naval warships or be an deterrent offensive weapon (job of USN), yet be equipped to either severely disable or render inoperable (not destroy) non-military vessels.
A pair of conventional, single-barrel cannons (bow and stern) that can disable or wreck (without sinking) a large ship, including mega-ships.
Equipped with suppressive-fire machine-gun, should the use of cannon not be used.
It cannot, by obvious reason, possess or be equipped to fire torpedoes or missiles (only USN reserves such armament).
A vessel of this kind and role must have endurance. Nine days is obviously insufficient. (Twice that would be insufficient)
Fast cruising speed.
Designed for minimal crew but not robotic.
Hull built to withstand running in (up against) sea ice.
Personnel trained to board large, even mega-vessels.
The same personnel must be trained to possibly remove and detain the violating crew.
One helicopter pad.
One helicopter.
It must not, by obvious reason, be equipped with an armed helicopter.
Sufficient steel armor to withstand possibility of rockets, machine-gun fire or even light to medium cannon fire.
It's cannons must be smaller-caliber, high-velocity, armor-piercing, flat-trajectory, fast-firing type. The barrel must be able to withstand sustained firing.
State of the art navigation and communications, as well as signalling.
Two fast launches.
It must have aboard fluent speakers of various languages (as applicable) as interpreters/intake specialists (not interrogators).
Infirmary with surgeon.
Equipped sufficiently with lifeboat craft that is efficient to release and operate.
Simple, spartan, yet comfortable and useful in accommodation of crew.
 

Belesari

New Member
And for those that continually rumble about LCS, Range for LCS 2 at 18 kts = 4,200 NMI, very similar to the WWII Gearing class DD's
One thing i've never understood. The LCS are designed for very high speeds. This has hampered them in some ways. But why were they designed for that in the first place? The Navy admitted that the ships might use their speed very, very, very rarely....so?
 

colay

New Member
One thing i've never understood. The LCS are designed for very high speeds. This has hampered them in some ways. But why were they designed for that in the first place? The Navy admitted that the ships might use their speed very, very, very rarely....so?
Google the August 2012. GAO report to Congress.. highlights how the Navy sees the LCS capitalizing on it's speed among lots of other useful info.
 

Belesari

New Member
Google the August 2012. GAO report to Congress.. highlights how the Navy sees the LCS capitalizing on it's speed among lots of other useful info.
I've heard the Reasons. Able to quickly sprint from port to a place its needed. Or to get out of harms way (lets not touch how that affects how it can get away from a antiship missile..) I like the idea of using the wake as a weapon....someone needs to be smacked for that one.

I've seen all the stuff been reading about it and listening and learning sense they (LCS, DDG-1000, CG-X) were depicted as a group of trimaran superships with railguns and lasers and fusion plants in the 90's. (Popular mechanics article)
 

colay

New Member
I've heard the Reasons. Able to quickly sprint from port to a place its needed. Or to get out of harms way (lets not touch how that affects how it can get away from a antiship missile..) I like the idea of using the wake as a weapon....someone needs to be smacked for that one.

I've seen all the stuff been reading about it and listening and learning sense they (LCS, DDG-1000, CG-X) were depicted as a group of trimaran superships with railguns and lasers and fusion plants in the 90's. (Popular mechanics article)
Well, you want every edge you can get, specially in combat.. given the choice, why wouldn't a faster ship be better? It's not like the throttle will be stuck at 40 knots from the moment it weighs anchor until it's fanks run dry.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I can see why they would want a turn of speed ... I wouldn't want to stick around and fight in one of those things.

What sort of battle damage could those things sustain?
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
How about we keep this USCG related, instead of getting into the LCS when there's already an ongoing discussion on the very same in the USN thread?
 

fretburner

Banned Member
Has the USCG been fired upon with RPGs ever? I know it's probably stupid for pirates to try to hit it with an RPG while a Bertholf (or the new medium endurance cutter) is pulling at a pirate ship's side perhaps for boarding and such, but how much damage can these cutters take? Will a couple of RPGs just below the waterline "hurt" it at all?
 
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