kirov class battle cruiser

[Feanor]

It would be a shame if the Granit line stopped where it is. It's a very interesting missile system, with one of the missiles acting as a target designator for the rest of the swarm.

 

[Balancer]

for sure granite will be followed by Granite-2 (granite-m), because the information that other kirov ships will return to service is confirmed

Kirov ships are great power. Except USA Navy and their 11 carriers no other country's navy can even get close to such ships or will be destroyed by 24 Granite missiles

 

[tphuang]

for sure granite will be followed by Granite-2 (granite-m), because the information that other kirov ships will return to service is confirmed

Kirov ships are great power. Except USA Navy and their 11 carriers no other country's navy can even get close to such ships or will be destroyed by 24 Granite missiles

hmm, not really. Kirov are great for its day, but its sensors and combat system need a serious overhaul to be brought back to the modern standard. And despite its great size, its not as packed as some of the more modern designs like KDX-3 or Atago class, so it really doesn't have much of an advantage in strike power.

 

[Feanor]

I'm under the impression that the modernization and overhaul will involve the sensors and computers.

 

[Balancer]

tphuang

Peter the Great is more modern than 90% of all navies ships. Almost all systems including sensor and processing systems were significantly improved or are absolutely new. Other modernized Kirov cruisers will get all absolutely new what conserns computers, processing, radar

I have checked Sejong the Great class specification, and i am absolutely sure that it will sink in 2 minutes if it comes across Kirov class cruiser.
KDX-3 is armed only with similar to Harpoon antiship missiles with maximum range not more 250km and it is subsonic and easy to intercept and takes 220kg warhead , while Kirov will launch for instance 8(up to 24) Granites - 550-700 km range , speed 2,5-4M , manoeuvrable and with armor with warhead 750kg. and this 8 granites will attack simultaneously

The USA Navy is aware of what can do Kirov class cruisers , so they never planned to send Ticos or Burks against such cruisers - only the carrier can launch its 70 F15/F18 at a range of 1000km not becomung a target for the Granite missiles

Just check specifications of Kirov class and and any other and compare it.

 

[AegisFC]

hmm, not really. Kirov are great for its day, but its sensors and combat system need a serious overhaul to be brought back to the modern standard. And despite its great size, its not as packed as some of the more modern designs like KDX-3 or Atago class, so it really doesn't have much of an advantage in strike power.

I'll believe the stories about upgrades after the first upgraded Kirov leaves the yard.
One of the disadvantages of the Kirovs was that it lacked the number of illuminators to effectively use its large anti aircraft missile batteries so it never had much of an advantage in area air defense either.

The USA Navy is aware of what can do Kirov class cruisers , so they never planned to send Ticos or Burks against such cruisers - only the carrier can launch its 70 F15/F18 at a range of 1000km not becomung a target for the Granite missiles

Anti-surface warfare isn't the primary job of a Burke, Tico or any US ship so you won't be seeing either one in a fight against ANY other major surface combatant without airborne or submerged help.
The Tico/Burke and the Kirovs are not even remotely comparable and they reflect the vastly different doctrines of their respective navies. The USN does not operate F-15 either.

There are a few old threads on this forum about super-sonic ASM's go look them up they are a good read with several posts by people who know what they are talking about. Super-sonic ASM's have not turned out to be as dangerous as they were once believed to be, they have limitations and are not hard to counter.
Besides with truly modern automated air defense systems, shipboard ECW, CEC, the fun stuff that gets tossed out of the SRBOC launchers and systems like NULKA hitting a modern AAW ship with a well trained crew is not easy.

Lastly when was the last time ANY Russian ship deployed for more than a few months without a fleet tug going as well?

 

[stoker]

What can be found regarding Granite M is that its maximum range is at least 800km , max speed more 2,5M (even for granite initially max speed was 4M) , can go both high and low atitude (up to 25km attitude)......and it has armor too

but all data is classified the same as classified for ICBM RS24

Don't get to impressed with all the data put out on any of these missile systems.

No matter what missile you are firing, its is a dumb round, firstly you HAVE to clearly identify and designate the enemy target., you then have to tell the missile where its target is, and generally after the missile is fired, update the missiles systems to where its moving tatget position is at, or is going to be.

I doubt very much that the Russian navy is at present, or will be even if they ever get the whole 3 Kirov's to sea in the distant future capable using the Granite M's range ( 800 km ) to attack a US carrier task force say 500 kms away.

First the Russians would have to have the ability to find the US fleet , then even if they managed to fire every Granite missle in a salvo, how many would actually find their targets, and any that got with in range would be shot down by F18's and the Aegis missile defence network.

The Kirov's have always been highly overated, i believe the Russians are bring them back as a matter of expediance to get hulls in the water and out to sea,

And the Kirov's themselves would have great difficulty in defending themselves against even moderate attacks from Western navies, and no hope against a U.S. carrier task force.

 

[StevoJH]

In my opinion the most important thing the Kirov's give the Russian Navy is additional S300 SAM systems, as they and the Slava's are the only ships they have that carry it.

If they put the Kirov's all back into service they should do as little modernisation as possible. They should then lay down a new class of ships of Slava or Udaloy size with the S-300 system on it (even just putting the slava back into production with modernised equipment would do the job).

 

[Feanor]

I wouldn't underestimate the Kirov either. Against a 2nd or third-world Navy it's an extremely capable vessel. And granted that it's not operating alone, it can do quite a bit of damage against an enemy Naval task-force that doesn't include carriers. More improtantly it gives the Russian Navy experience of operating large ships, allows for crew training, establishment of the necessary logistics for it, and gives important modernization orders to the naval yards. Assuming we're not planning for war against the US or NATO (which it seems the new doctrine does not) the ships definetly have their place. Especially given how much cheaper it is to reactivate and modernize those ships, then it is to build new ones (with the Bulava/Borei projects eating all the VMFs financing).

 

[SkolZkiy]

Do you want to say that Kirov's are not capable against NATO and exactle against USN? I think with subs and Tu-22M3 are very very capable.

Modernization of Nakhimov is cost 700-800 millions $. And forget about S-300 - only S-400 would be put on all new ships IMHO.

 

[Balancer]

first of all, modernized Kirov cruisers are not a threat to to the US navy, as US have enough carrier groups to cope with it, but Russia does not see any threat from US navy , Our contemporary probable enemy can be for instance Japan (we have a territorial dispute regarding 4 islands on our borders)


for targeting of Granites and Bazalts we have enough of Tu22M3 +three KA27 on each kirov

What concerns Aegis i will not say that it is "wunderwaffe", i have heard much about "wunderwaffe" Patriot and its incapacity to intercept extremely old SKUDs during Gulf war. (of course now it is improved in Patriot Pac3 , but in 1991 Patriot was concidered to be 100% effective againtst such old missiles as Skuds)

so if one ship has a missile with 750 kg warhead and max speed 3 times supersonic with armor and the other ship has missiles with 220kg warhead and 250km range and subsinic speed without armor - whose missiles will reach whom quicker? and whose missiles will more possible penetrate SAM system of a ship?

If somebody disagrees - pls explain how 2 Atago Class cruisers will destroy 1 Kirov Class Cruiser?

Kirov Class specification
Displacement: 24,300 tons Standard, 28,000 (Full Load)
Length: 252 m (830 ft)
Beam: 28.5 m (94 ft)
Draft: 9.1 m (30 ft)
Propulsion: 2-shaft CONAS, 2× KN-3 nuclear propulsion with 2× GT3A-688 steam turbines
140,000 shp[1]
Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h)
Range: 1,000 nautical miles (2,000 km) at 30 knots (56 km/h) (combined propulsion),
Essentially unlimited with nuclear power at 20 knots (37 km/h)
Complement: 710
Sensors and
processing systems:

Radars(NATO Reporting Name):
Voskhod MR-800 (Top Pair) 3D search radar, foremast
Fregat MR-710 (Top Steer) 3D search radar, main mast
2 × Palm Frond navigation radar, foremast
Sonar:
Horse Jaw LF hull sonar
Horse Tail VDS (Variable Depth Sonar)
Armament: 20 P-700 Granit (SS-N-19 Shipwreck) AShM
96 S-400 (SA-NX-20 Gargoyle) long-range SAM (Pyotr Velikhy)
192 9K311 Tor (SA-N-9 Gauntlet) point defense SAM
44 OSA-MA (SA-N-4 Gecko) PD SAM
2x RBU-1000 305 mm ASW rocket launchers
2x RBU-12000 (Udav-1) 254 mm ASW rocket launchers
1 twin AK-130 130 mm/L70 dual purpose gun
10 533 mm ASW/ASuW torpedo tubes, Type 53 torpedo or SS-N-15 ASW missile
8x AK-630 hex gatling 30 mm/L60 PD guns (Ushakov, Lazarev)
6x CADS-N-1 Kashtan missile/gun system
Armour: 76 mm plating around reactor compartment, light splinter protection
Aircraft carried: 3 helicopters Ka27
Aviation facilities: Below-deck hangar

Atago class specification
Builders: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
Operators: Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force
Built: 2004–2008
In commission: 2007–
Completed: 2
Active: 2
General characteristics
Type: Guided missile destroyer
Displacement: 7,750 tons standard
10,000+ tons full load
Length: 170 m (557 ft 9 in)
Beam: 21 m (68 ft 11 in)
Draft: 6.2 m (20 ft 4 in)
Propulsion: 4 Ishikawajima Harima/General Electric LM2500-30 gas turbines
Two shafts
100,000 shaft horsepower (75 MW)
Speed: 30 knots (56 km/h)
Complement: 300
Sensors and
processing systems: AN/SPY-1 radar
Armament: • 8 x SSM-1B SSM
• SM-2MR Standard SAM
• ASROC anti-submarine rocket
• 1 x 5 inch (127 mm)/62 cal Mk.45 mod 4 lightweight gun
• 2 x 20 mm Phalanx CIWS
• 2 x HOS302 triple torpedo tubes
(6 x Mk-46 or type73 torpedoes)
Aircraft carried: 1 × SH-60K helicopter

 

[Feanor]

Did you compare the displacement? These are different classes of ships. It's like asking how a missile boat can sink a destroyer. The disparity in armaments is even greater. One carrier 12 megatons of nuclear payload. The other, a handful of conventional ASMs.

 

[Balancer]

Feanor i just answer the below quoted statement

hmm, not really. Kirov are great for its day, but its sensors and combat system need a serious overhaul to be brought back to the modern standard. And despite its great size, its not as packed as some of the more modern designs like KDX-3 or Atago class, so it really doesn't have much of an advantage in strike power.

I want to explain that modernized Kirov will be deployed not against US navy , but against other states , with which we will have to fight using conventional weapons. For instance if Japan will decide to "return back" some islands or Sahalin their navy will come across Kirov +Slava + Oscar II with Shipwrecks
That's the case We in Russia are not leaving in "USSR vs USA" world(we see much more threat from some of our neighbours) , whereas some Nato generals are still in in the past.

 

[StevoJH]

Kirov is a one shot wonder. If those two Atago's survive the granit barrage (and they probably would). Then they move into Harpoon Range and fire them off. Then as the distance closes further they bring their guns into action and start using their SM-2's and ESSM as Anti-Ship missiles (which I don't think the Active Guided S-300 can do).

 

[stoker]

I want to explain that modernized Kirov will be deployed not against US navy , but against other states , with which we will have to fight using conventional weapons. For instance if Japan will decide to "return back" some islands or Sahalin their navy will come across Kirov +Slava + Oscar II with Shipwrecks

I don't like to get in to comparisons of ships in futuristic never will happen naval battles..

Japan and Russia will NOT come to blows over the disputed north of Japan islands.

China is Russia's only likely major future combatant, and that would be in the main, a land battle.

My arguement is purely and simply that Russia is bringing back 3 of the remaining Kirov's as a matter of expedience, to get operational hulls in the water.It will be very interesting to see , considering Russia's past history in modernising naval ships,what systems will appear and if they can network them in to fully operational self defence and attack system.

I would also be very surprised if Russia, as mentioned, put nuclear weapons onboard these renovated Kirov's. Hasn't Russia sign some protocols with the U.S./U.N. over carriage of nuclear weapons on surface ships?

The Kirovs are very big impressive ships, but I still believe they were highly overated in convential warfare. Nuclear warfare may have been a different outcome, fortunately we had enough sense never to find out.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I wouldn't completely rule out the russian stuff, its no longer as edgy as it once was but its still dangerous enough you don't want to be putting warships in front of hostile incommings, there is some risk. If anyone can saturate a modern setup, it would be Russia. I would assume any launch from Kirov would be part of a larger attack including SSN's and smaller ships. Even a fairly flimsy Russian taskforce of 1 Kirov, 1 SSN, 1 Slava and 1 Sovremenny would give a single or two burkes a run for their missiles and could proberly saturate them. Then you have underwater nasties too.

I don't think Russia has signed any protocol regarding nuclear weapons on surface ships (according to my google fu) apart from the much older 90's obligations (at which state Soviet stuff had a nuke on anything worthwhile). I certainly wouldn't be using that as a defence.

Certainly wouldn't be getting close to them trying to gun them down, the Kirov operate usually a 2 x 130mm automatic/radar gun so unless you are firing GPS guided rounds I would be keeping well away from that. It also has 8 x 30mm guns so anything slow and predictable (shells atleast) is proberly going get something hitting it.

 

[tphuang]

tphuang

Peter the Great is more modern than 90% of all navies ships. Almost all systems including sensor and processing systems were significantly improved or are absolutely new. Other modernized Kirov cruisers will get all absolutely new what conserns computers, processing, radar

I have checked Sejong the Great class specification, and i am absolutely sure that it will sink in 2 minutes if it comes across Kirov class cruiser.
KDX-3 is armed only with similar to Harpoon antiship missiles with maximum range not more 250km and it is subsonic and easy to intercept and takes 220kg warhead , while Kirov will launch for instance 8(up to 24) Granites - 550-700 km range , speed 2,5-4M , manoeuvrable and with armor with warhead 750kg. and this 8 granites will attack simultaneously

The USA Navy is aware of what can do Kirov class cruisers , so they never planned to send Ticos or Burks against such cruisers - only the carrier can launch its 70 F15/F18 at a range of 1000km not becomung a target for the Granite missiles

Just check specifications of Kirov class and and any other and compare it.

I could be respond, but this pretty much sums out that you have no clue.

Feanor i just answer the below quoted statement



I want to explain that modernized Kirov will be deployed not against US navy , but against other states , with which we will have to fight using conventional weapons. For instance if Japan will decide to "return back" some islands or Sahalin their navy will come across Kirov +Slava + Oscar II with Shipwrecks
That's the case We in Russia are not leaving in "USSR vs USA" world(we see much more threat from some of our neighbours) , whereas some Nato generals are still in in the past.

JMSDF is probably the strongest navy in the world after USN. A couple of Kirovs aren't going to scare them away.

This doesn't mean I dislike kirov or anything like that. I'm actually a huge fan, but I just have some issues. I think it could easily become one of the most powerful non-carrier ships in the world if it can get a modern set of sensors, combat systems, resolve any issue it may have with propulsion and get the latest versions of Rif. It's getting late here, so I won't go through all my pros and cons of the ship, but I do have a list.

 

[Feanor]

The Petr Velikiy actually carriers nuclear ASMs. And as far as I know carried them on the cruise including anti-piracy missions, and joint exercises in the Carribean. So I think that if any of the others return to service they too would have the nuclear Granit.

 

[Balancer]

Kirov is a one shot wonder. If those two Atago's survive the granit barrage (and they probably would). Then they move into Harpoon Range and fire them off. Then as the distance closes further they bring their guns into action and start using their SM-2's and ESSM as Anti-Ship missiles (which I don't think the Active Guided S-300 can do).

How will Atago survive? do you know any real evidence that its SAM can intercept simultaneous barrage of 10-20 supersonic missiles(Mach 3 or even 4) with deception jammer system , maneuvering guidance system,and part of its group will go very low attitude and has armor which together with high kinetic energy can let it reach the target even with some damage made by antimissile sysem of the target.
Moreover even 1 Granite missile success means 100% that Atago is destroyed and sunk in minutes or seconds. At the same time , i have plenty evidence regarding tests of SAM of Kirov cruisers against subsonic targets imitating Harpoon missile and even 2-3 successes of Harpoon does not guarantee that Kirov will be destroyed totally (2 harpoons were not enough for even 3 times smaller and older Wainwright during tests)

As i see the discussion is becoming "ship X is much better as it has better electronics and computers" but why do not pay attention that this ship has only 8 antiship subsonic missiles (copies of harpoon) with 3 times shorter range and to launch even this 8 missiles Atago will have to get very close to Kirov . Doubtless all Granites will have been launched very long before Atago reaches its missiles range

I deliberately do not compare Kirov and Tico/Burk , as such battle is impossible , as this ships are designed to operate in carrier groups and will not act without air support.

 

[Bonza]

How will Atago survive? do you know any real evidence that its SAM can intercept simultaneous barrage of 10-20 supersonic missiles(Mach 3 or even 4) with deception jammer system , maneuvering guidance system,and part of its group will go very low attitude and has armor which together with high kinetic energy can let it reach the target even with some damage made by antimissile sysem of the target.

Moreover even 1 Granite missile success means 100% that Atago is destroyed and sunk in minutes or seconds. At the same time , i have plenty evidence regarding tests of SAM of Kirov cruisers against subsonic targets imitating Harpoon missile and even 2-3 successes of Harpoon does not guarantee that Kirov will be destroyed totally (2 harpoons were not enough for even 3 times smaller and older Wainwright during tests)

As i see the discussion is becoming "ship X is much better as it has better electronics and computers" but why do not pay attention that this ship has only 8 antiship subsonic missiles (copies of harpoon) with 3 times shorter range and to launch even this 8 missiles Atago will have to get very close to Kirov . Doubtless all Granites will have been launched very long before Atago reaches its missiles range

It seems to be a condition of this scenario that both sides are operating their respective vessels totally unsupported by other systems. Would any modern military operate like this in the event of conflict?

If the answer is no (and it is), then the comparison has extremely limited relevance to reality...