Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD

[StingrayOZ]

Devils advocate here. As the majority of the helicopters to be operated from the LHDs belong to the army and will be busy doing army stuff most of the time, doesn't that indicate that the LHDs will spend most of their time with an almost empty flight deck and hanger?

If this is the case then they could end up spending more time operating aircraft from allied forces than the intended army airgroup, i.e. potentially F-35Bs, Ospreys as well as the obvious RAN FAA Seahawks? Also if the projected third AOR eventually is ordered as a second LPD, wouldn't that potentially free up space for other stuff on the larger and more flexible LHDs?

2017 Full ARG/ESG demonstration at which point we will no doubt learn a lot and want to repeat the event at some stage with new kit, new doctrine, new procedure, more troops, more kit. We have to get very good at this type of operation very quickly.

2018 New Caledonia referendum on independence
2019 Bougainville referendum (remembering over 20,000 died last time this flared up)
Then you have the election cycles to be ready for which are always going to be warm events.

Assuming Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, PNG all remain politically stable and the West Papua movement doesn't gain traction. Of course, no storms, or HDAR missions. Plus all the regular training and missions.

I worry about PNG. It was just 6 months ago students were setting fire to things to march on parliament. 2011 when they had two concurrent Prime Ministers.

Free West Papua leaders were calling the UN for a vote 6 months ago and the recent blow up with Indonesia gives you an idea how jumpy people are. West Papua has the potential to be Timor times ten. The possibility of concurrent missions at different phases is not impossible.

Right now we should be sourcing every single amphibious force multiplier we can. Chinooks, MV-22's, L-Cats, LARC upgrades, LARC replacement + amphibious recon vehicles (small number of TERREX2's), riverine craft, a short term contract on a fast ferry with two 20mm mounts. I would be talking to Spain about some sort of Pacific deployment of JC1. Getting a quote on a 3rd LHD or a Galacia or Bay class or maybe even a short term lease from someone.

F-35B's? Now? Wheres the priority on that!

 

[Stampede]

2017 Full ARG/ESG demonstration at which point we will no doubt learn a lot and want to repeat the event at some stage with new kit, new doctrine, new procedure, more troops, more kit. We have to get very good at this type of operation very quickly.

2018 New Caledonia referendum on independence
2019 Bougainville referendum (remembering over 20,000 died last time this flared up)
Then you have the election cycles to be ready for which are always going to be warm events.

Assuming Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, PNG all remain politically stable and the West Papua movement doesn't gain traction. Of course, no storms, or HDAR missions. Plus all the regular training and missions.

I worry about PNG. It was just 6 months ago students were setting fire to things to march on parliament. 2011 when they had two concurrent Prime Ministers.

Free West Papua leaders were calling the UN for a vote 6 months ago and the recent blow up with Indonesia gives you an idea how jumpy people are. West Papua has the potential to be Timor times ten. The possibility of concurrent missions at different phases is not impossible.

Right now we should be sourcing every single amphibious force multiplier we can. Chinooks, MV-22's, L-Cats, LARC upgrades, LARC replacement + amphibious recon vehicles (small number of TERREX2's), riverine craft, a short term contract on a fast ferry with two 20mm mounts. I would be talking to Spain about some sort of Pacific deployment of JC1. Getting a quote on a 3rd LHD or a Galacia or Bay class or maybe even a short term lease from someone.

F-35B's? Now? Wheres the priority on that!

Thanks Stingray for the detailed reply and I concur with much of the above re both the Geo political and the urgent,repeat urgent need for additional connectors of ship to shore and additional amphibious assets.The lack of a LCH replacement leaves us with only three ( impressive ) ships which can only be at only so many places at once. This will I suspect be problematic for future amphibious tasking where demand out strips supply. Regrettably I don't see the RAN getting another LHD, but would suggest another BAY would not be too unrealistic as would a few LCH sized vessels.
Should not be too big a political sell but of course it's always about the dollars so such assets would need justification and seen as a priority and funded accordingly.
Your Geo political concerns may of not prove correct and I'm always hoping for a peaceful future but I'm sure we could also add many more areas of concern and potentially troubling situations to deal with across the region.

So to answer your question I am a complete advocate for a balanced ADF and that is an ADF with integral fast air.
It does not have to be in great numbers, but it Is something which I believe will give the ADF so many options that any adversary will definitely take into account. I'm confident it will be the game changing asset that may not only win battles but more importantly provide the deterrence to prevent them in the first place.
I don't see the F35 b on the Canberra's as a whim or a nice to have.
I don't see this asset as some staring eyed boy saying "look at what we have!"For me 'it's the missing item not found,discussed or seemingly planned for the Canberra's. I must confess to be completely perplexed why there is so much hostility to the mating of this asset and the LHD's as to me it just does not stack up to history ,geography or global trends or even the economics of acquiring said capability.

So fund the F35B to be at the crawling stage when we are running stage with the amphibious stuff and aim to be running with the F35b by the early to mid 2020's
We have the money , do we have the foresight
Regards S

 

[hauritz]

I would consider operating AEW aircraft before F-35s

You could have the AWD with SM-6 missiles capable of hitting targets out to 400 km. To take full advantage of that capability you will need some sort of AEW.

 

[ASSAIL]

I would consider operating AEW aircraft before F-35s

You could have the AWD with SM-6 missiles capable of hitting targets out to 400 km. To take full advantage of that capability you will need some sort of AEW.

Surely the RAN would be working in coalition in a high threat environment.
The whole revolution in the ADF revolves around networks all contributing to situational awareness, which means; the Wedgetails, P8s, F35, Triton, JORN et al can all provide national contributions to the battle space for both national (in lower threat ops) and coalition forces.
I'd suggest under this circumstance dedicated AEW for embarkation on the LHDs is a luxury not needed and a waste of critical space.

 

[t68]

I'd suggest under this circumstance dedicated AEW for embarkation on the LHDs is a luxury not needed and a waste of critical space.

Having never been involved with naval operations even withou fast jets I would have thought something like Crowsnest wold be a good addtion to have as it not only looks at the ariel picture but also gives a self deployable ground surveillance capabilty, I'm fairly sure the UK AEW Sea kings were works hard in overland ops as well.

 

[ASSAIL]

Having never been involved with naval operations even withou fast jets I would have thought something like Crowsnest wold be a good to have as it not only looks at the ariel picture but also gives a self deployable ground surveillance capabilty, I'm fairly sure the UK AEW Sea kings were works hard in overland ops as well.

Your supposition assumes that no other SA source will play a part.
But first, I agree that some organic AEW would assist but at what cost in space and flexibility. Many posters here have commented that every square metre of deck and hanger is needed to conduct AEG/ARG/Seabasing ops and that these will be conducted as part of a coalition in contested ops,and independently otherwise.

The ADF has undertaken a revolution in all 3 services in how it constructs SA and that includes all the resources I previously mentioned and this picture will be perfectly adequate in the type of independent operations planned and gamed for.

Finally you tout the Crowsnest system which, if there is no other capability available, is an adequate though imperfect tool, it is a compromise coddled together because there was no alternative.

The ADF has alternatives in our own future capabilities and with our coalition partners.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I would consider operating AEW aircraft before F-35s

You could have the AWD with SM-6 missiles capable of hitting targets out to 400 km. To take full advantage of that capability you will need some sort of AEW.

the comms and combat bubble goes well beyond that

you're only looking at organic reach

 

[t68]

Your supposition assumes that no other SA source will play a part.
But first, I agree that some organic AEW would assist but at what cost in space and flexibility. Many posters here have commented that every square metre of deck and hanger is needed to conduct AEG/ARG/Seabasing ops and that these will be conducted as part of a coalition in contested ops,and independently otherwise.

The ADF has undertaken a revolution in all 3 services in how it constructs SA and that includes all the resources I previously mentioned and this picture will be perfectly adequate in the type of independent operations planned and gamed for.

Finally you tout the Crowsnest system which, if there is no other capability available, is an adequate though imperfect tool, it is a compromise coddled together because there was no alternative.

The ADF has alternatives in our own future capabilities and with our coalition partners.

ADF AEW capbilty is moving ahead in leaps and bounds, but depending on the nature of tr operation those systems may not be avalible or only avalible for short periods of time. An ARG battle group will rely on freedom of movement there are no guarantee that land based AEW will have host nation to operate from, Crowsnest might be a compromise but lead its something when there is no alternative. It's like the ld chestnut that the RAAF combat patrols over the fleet at distance it's a myth.

 

[gf0012-aust]

ADF AEW capbilty is moving ahead in leaps and bounds, but depending on the nature of tr operation those systems may not be avalible or only avalible for short periods of time. An ARG battle group will rely on freedom of movement there are no guarantee that land based AEW will have host nation to operate from, Crowsnest might be a compromise but lead its something when there is no alternative. It's like the ld chestnut that the RAAF combat patrols over the fleet at distance it's a myth.

there's a whole pile of other priorities that would come before organic rotary AEW - especially in light of the CONOPs for the ships and where and when we are likely to deploy them

they won't be going into a threat area without approp support - and the protection screen be it AEW, CAP, AWD, AMD will be scoped before they lift anchor

I'd also argue that whatever we consider if at all in the future re organic AEW for that type of vessel will be in concert with solutions already being scoped

the last thing we should be doing at this point in time is designing our own solution set bearing in mind all the other priorities.

I'm with Assail - because the other thing that has to be considered is that if you shove anyone up a pole within nn metres of the comms stuff in place you will be cooking their bodies in no short order. the energy upstairs is huge

nobody is going upstairs for medical reasons - and the benefit as a form of additional lamination just does not warrant it

closure rates, extant sensor range rings etc .... there's a whole pile of technical and practical reasons why you wouldn't do it.

edit

misread on my part - crowsnest read as biped up a mast and not the system.... thank goodness as I was wondering whether sanity had left the room

 

[gf0012-aust]

Ignore my prev as I obviously have suffered from cognitive dissonance and misread the prev post

I'll leave it up as the broader discussion around organic AEW for phatships will invariably come up

 

[Boagrius]

Ignore my prev as I obviously have suffered from cognitive dissonance and misread the prev post

I'll leave it up as the broader discussion around organic AEW for phatships will invariably come up

Rotary wing AEW like Crowsnest does seem a little inefficient as an organic solution - although I take it the RN have been left with little other choice for the foreseeable future. Wondering if a similar solution might find itself onto a high endurance UAS at some point down the track? Might make more sense as far as phatships are concerned...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Rotary wing AEW like Crowsnest does seem a little inefficient as an organic solution - although I take it the RN have been left with little other choice for the foreseeable future. Wondering if a similar solution might find itself onto a high endurance UAS at some point down the track? Might make more sense as far as phatships are concerned...

I think that the push will be towards UAS AEW - persistence, projection advantages etc....

and based on improvements to AI re swarm and hive management - then the airborne array model starts to get traction

 

[Boagrius]

I think that the push will be towards UAS AEW - persistence, projection advantages etc....

and based on improvements to AI re swarm and hive management - then the airborne array model starts to get traction

That seems intuitive to me. Mind you, two challenges I could see (from my comfortable, civilian, utterly unqualified armchair) would just be visibility and response time. I imagine you might not always want a UAS like that constantly orbiting, radiating and potentially giving away the position of your ARG/SAG/whatever and would thus want to be able to launch it and recover it quicker than your typical MALE/HALE UAS might allow. Perhaps a small price to pay for the persistence and potential sensor footprint though... one that things like swarm AI might help to mitigate down the track(?)

 

[t68]

there's a whole pile of other priorities that would come before organic rotary AEW -

Agree ADF has a lot on its plate with new AEW capbilty to reach FOC (f35, P8, 550,triton?) without introducing a new capabilty now it's something that can be pushed down the road a little bit.

I'd also argue that whatever we consider if at all in the future re organic AEW for that type of vessel will be in concert with solutions already being scoped

Are you referring to aircraft already in te works or mentioned in the last DWP such as the light SOF helicopter ( ULB demonstrator?)

nobody is going upstairs for medical reasons - and the benefit as a form of additional lamination just does not warrant it

Yeah got a very basic understanding of that when I work some RA Sigs can just imagine the power outputs ship mounted stuff puts out.

 

[gf0012-aust]

That seems intuitive to me. Mind you, two challenges I could see (from my comfortable, civilian, utterly unqualified armchair) would just be visibility and response time. I imagine you might not always want a UAS like that constantly orbiting, radiating and potentially giving away the position of your ARG/SAG/whatever and would thus want to be able to launch it and recover it quicker than your typical MALE/HALE UAS might allow. Perhaps a small price to pay for the persistence and potential sensor footprint though... one that things like swarm AI might help to mitigate down the track(?)

I think the other things to consider are the fact that having an array, especially with UAS that have hardpoints allows them to be used in multi-capability roles. The days of having platforms performing niche tasks are diminishing. ie its much like the CAS debate or the current boss of the USMC philosophy that every platform that can contribute to the fight will do so, ie its a capability event with everything avail in the fight, not a platform event in the near future

so your UAS assets will be flying bearers, contributing to ASW prosecution, part of the sensor laminate etc...

Its also a whole lot harder to pick up sig optimised UAS than a manned asset.

anything that adds another sensor range ring to the group is a benefit. better to lose a sub $1m UAS asset than a manned aviation asset - or worse a ship.

then add in the fact that the ADO is no longer just fighting in the traditional 4 environments commonly presented - they're heading towards 6 environments. add that connectivity to other partners own multi-environment capabilities and you have a significant sensor and fighting bubble

 

[gf0012-aust]

Agree ADF has a lot on its plate with new AEW capbilty to reach FOC (f35, P8, 550,triton?) without introducing a new capabilty now it's something that can be pushed down the road a little bit.

the advantage of having a very close and personal working relationship with the US is that we get to leverage of their developments at some point

Are you referring to aircraft already in te works or mentioned in the last DWP such as the light SOF helicopter ( ULB demonstrator?)

yes, and some

Yeah got a very basic understanding of that when I work some RA Sigs can just imagine the power outputs ship mounted stuff puts out.

they'd be hamburger meat

I did some ground based portable comms relay work a few years back - we tested it on a golf course, there were hazard tapes all over the place and warning signs telling everyone to stay away. if anyone had stepped in front they would have suffered pretty quickly - those systems would have fitted in the back of a bunnings rent a trailer and were small genset powered - you can imagine what a shipboard system would do

 

[ngatimozart]

Yeah got a very basic understanding of that when I work some RA Sigs can just imagine the power outputs ship mounted stuff puts out.

Yep, sometimes if we had to go up the mast or work around the radar we'd lock it down and take the key with us, just in case.

 

[ASSAIL]

Yep, sometimes if we had to go up the mast or work around the radar we'd lock it down and take the key with us, just in case.

RADHAZ safety is Standard practice in all ships. Man aloft requires all radiating machinery whether emitting or not to be switched off and the tags/keys placed with the OOD in harbour or OOW at sea.
I presume the practice remains.

 

[ngatimozart]

RADHAZ safety is Standard practice in all ships. Man aloft requires all radiating machinery whether emitting or not to be switched off and the tags/keys placed with the OOD in harbour or OOW at sea.
I presume the practice remains.

Was when I was in and we were supposed to hand key to OOD / OOW but sometimes we forgot. It was always logged what we were doing, when we switched off radiation emitting machinery and switched it back on.

 

[Stampede]

I think that the push will be towards UAS AEW - persistence, projection advantages etc....

and based on improvements to AI re swarm and hive management - then the airborne array model starts to get traction

I see a lot of this conversation really about the potential of future systems and how the Canberra class is well suited to exploit them.
It would be interesting to fast forward a few decades to the end of the ships lives and see just how they are utilised in the future.
I recall an article by the head of the DMO some years ago when the LHD contract was signed for the Canberra class that speculated the ships would be used, 80% for HADR and 20% for other duties. Now I guess back then we didn't want to scare the neighbours with such a potent new class of vessel so I guess the speculation as to the ships reason d' etre was somewhat good politics.

Before I put the F35B on the Canberra does anyone want to guess its role and emphasis in future missions. Will note It has already being of assistance in FIJI doing HADR.

80 / 20 ?

Regards S