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Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by BOFORS, Aug 24, 2012.

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  1. BOFORS

    BOFORS New Member

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    EXCELLENT (long) article on Juan Carlos and Galicia class ships.Google : Amphibious Warfare Ships The Navantia Experience. Many diagrams , tables and photos.Well worthwhile.
     
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  2. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    This is the link http://infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/JCI_en_v2.pdf Its an 85 page PDF file in english by Francisco Javier Álvarez Laita & María Luisa Medina Arnáiz, sponsored by Navantia.
     
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  3. King Wally

    King Wally Member

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    *this apears to be the most relevant existing thread I can post this in*

    The Turkish Navy looks likely to build themselves a LHD based on the JC1

    Major Turkish companies bid for country's first aircraft carrier

    Would start as a Helicopter Carrier essentially and evolve into an Aircraft Carrier to be used by their F-35's when they arive in the future. The article seams to alude to changes in design to the original JC1 to suit Turkish needs but doesn't go on to specify what exactly.
     
  4. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    Having read the article, I have to wonder whether something did not translate correctly, or if this is another instance of journos writing about something which they do not understand, therefore they explain things incorrectly.

    If the programme name is Landing Platform Dock, then that would seem to indicate that Turkey is interested in an amphib capability. Further on in the article it even specifically mentioned having capacity for 100 tracked military vehicles (which means a vehicle deck) and a pool for two LCAC (well dock).

    The JCI was designed with weight for the F-35, and it is likely that design would carry over to other nations' follow-on builds, but that is still a far cry from calling an amphib an aircraft carrier. Me thinks the journos were overly enthused.

    There is also the matter of whether or not Turkey will opt to get any F-35B models, and AFAIK while they are an F-35 partner, Turkish interest was always for the F-35A.

    -Cheers
     
  5. King Wally

    King Wally Member

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    Yeah I have to admit I noticed some odd references in the article as well. I quickly checked on wikipedia to see if there was any reference there to it and got this...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I_(L61)

    Will be very interesting to see where their direction goes. If they do decide on using the JC1 design I'd be keen to see how they manage it to pull off an Aircraft Carrier role.
     
  6. RobWilliams

    RobWilliams Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Didn't think Turkey was gunning for the B.

    Either way, the article seems a bit odd. Like Tod said, could easily be translation. But LPD isn't a LHD (like JC1) and a LHD certainly isn't what the article demonstrates as an aircraft carrier in the image :rolleyes:

    But still, can notch up another win for the JC1 I guess.
     
  7. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Well the JC1 has been designed to operate in a STOVL capacity so no reason why the Turks cannot do the same if they follow the JC1 design.
     
  8. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    JCI is designed to handle the heat, deck weight, and with the ramp allow for flight off of and landing on. Having said that though (and this goes back to some arguments in the RAN thread...) being able to fly F-35's from a vessel is not the same as the vessel being able to support F-35 operations.

    The Spanish plan on using their LHD to maintain flight ops skills while the Spanish carrier is unavailable via maintenance, etc.

    Unless there were to be a massive rearrangement of the internals for any Turkish design, then there would be insufficient aviation fuel and magazine space to sustain F-35 ops. Remember, the article specified the vessel having space for 100 tracked military vehicles which would require a fair amount of space and available weight. And that space is not exactly the sort where extra munitions or fuel could be safely stored.

    -Cheers
     
  9. AegisFC

    AegisFC Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    The Príncipe de Asturias was decommed on 06 Feb. Leaving only the LHD's.
     
  10. harryriedl

    harryriedl New Member

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    This has changed now they have decommissioned PdA I would assume that JC would be their sole fixed wing platform with no sign of a PdA replacement as it decommissioned a few weeks ago. as its the only thing in the fleet capable of Harrier and F35 capability.
    http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/conten...rine-espagnole
     
  11. RobWilliams

    RobWilliams Super Moderator Staff Member

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    That is if they want the F35B. Last I heard was some discussions with Spain about it in '08.

    Although to be honest, how the current financial climate is in Spain I wouldn't like to comment about the realistic possibility of when an actual purchase will come about.

    Trouble with the JC1 for me is that the ski jump is integral to the design, so it'd probably be nastily expensive to get it changed. You'd easily get another helo spot on the deck if she was flat. So for Turkey's purposes, that's a slot sacrificed to pretty much bail out an ally (i.e Italy/RN/USMC) if they got into trouble with one of their F35B's

    I like the design of the ship, but that'd drive me up the wall if I had to give up a slot for the sake of a design requirement for an aircraft you've no intention of operating at all.

    All that is based on the assumption that Turkey isn't getting B's.
     
  12. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    Interesting, I missed that. Was she decommed due to the Spanish economic crisis, or was she due to be paid off?

    Also any work on a replacement for the PdA?

    -Cheers
     
  13. RobWilliams

    RobWilliams Super Moderator Staff Member

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    No replacement coming AFAIK, at least there wasn't any talk of one coming along when there was chatter about PdA leaving.

    Leaving just JC1.
     
  14. AegisFC

    AegisFC Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    The ship was at a point where it would either be SLEP'ed or decommed. They choose to decom her for economic reasons.

    Here are some pictures from her fairwell cruise.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G7Ur5fpRIzg/UPyzpgs563I/AAAAAAAAGM0/01jnZ1sg_e4/s1600/Farewell%2Bto%2BPrincipe%2Bde%2BAsturias%2BPDA%2BJAN%2B2013.jpg

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BEiC7xLvRLY/UPyzpEUVCsI/AAAAAAAAGMo/gD8xrCHznng/s1600/Farewell%2Bto%2BPDA%2BJAN%2B2013.jpg

    I've seen her in Rota, Spain a couple times, good looking ship, a pity she wasn't modernized. It is also nice to see non-nuetered Perries. :p:
     
  15. King Wally

    King Wally Member

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    Looking at those pics you really get a feel for how large the JC1 is, she litterally dwarfs the Aircraft carrier in size.
     
  16. weegee

    weegee Member

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    JC1 and the Canberra's still have 6 spots for choppers even with the jump don't forget, so for gaining 1 extra spot for a chopper with removing the jump does it gain you that much for the exspence. but then you also loose the option of not operating all the time but being able to launch or land fix wing aircraft if you had too at a push. I bet the top of the LHD looks a crap load more inviting to make an emergency landing on with the ability of taking off once fixed better than ditching in the ocean haha. I suppose if these ships are operating amongst coalition forces this could be a reality or a possibility in the future if required?
     
  17. harryriedl

    harryriedl New Member

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    I remember I think on this board that the discussion on making PdA F35 capable would be quite significant. Bringing up another important discussion on whether this was a marginal capability rather the full capability of the Harrier on PdA.
    agree a pretty design and well thought out for the tonnage apart from perhaps a too shallow ski jump
     
  18. AegisFC

    AegisFC Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    While the JC1 is a big ship the Príncipe de Asturias was pretty much the smallest and cheapest effective "Harrier Carrier" produced. It was a direct replacement for a WW2 vintage escort carrier and it has about the same dimensions.
    There was not much in the way of engineering redundancy and overall it is a very compact design.
     
  19. AegisFC

    AegisFC Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    It all depends on what the military using the ship requires. The USN and the Marines looked at installing ski jumps on the Tarawa class but came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth giving up the helo spot for what was very much a secondary capability.
     
  20. weegee

    weegee Member

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    That's a valid point but I suppose they have that luxury when your operating LHD's twice the size and weight of everyone else in the world? but as you say it all depends how important your choppers are to what you are trying to use your lhd for? 1 extra chopper can land a lot of extra men on the beach at the same time.