Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD
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My blood pressure sky-rocketed watching it, why bother with people like this :unknownIt has to be a piss take ? Surely
Spanish Harriers life in Juan Carlos.
In 2014 2 agreements for 150 millions euros on extending spanish Harriers upto 2034, they are 17 harriers and 1 bipilot formative. In 2034, 8 of them will have 38 years, and 9 of them 48 years old. At the moment over 50.000 hours of flight.
LIke 10 million per airplane for 20 year more each.
Radar of F18, flir, mavericks, amraam, hud, fuel probe, bigger extrafuel bunks for extra range....
The Juan Carlos is going to have a lot of Harrier life...the Juan Carlos is not for keeping the pilots active is for using it as carrier or amphibious carrier.
Impressive as many other times spanish with little making much.
Other example are the Ab212 that can bo in the Lhd frequently as well, from 1974, 7 helos updated whole electronics, everything, for 21 million for upto 2025-30. 50-55 years old in 2025-30.
I cannot past the links but are in Infodefensa.com.
In 2014 2 agreements for 150 millions euros on extending spanish Harriers upto 2034, they are 17 harriers and 1 bipilot formative. In 2034, 8 of them will have 38 years, and 9 of them 48 years old. At the moment over 50.000 hours of flight.
LIke 10 million per airplane for 20 year more each.
Radar of F18, flir, mavericks, amraam, hud, fuel probe, bigger extrafuel bunks for extra range....
The Juan Carlos is going to have a lot of Harrier life...the Juan Carlos is not for keeping the pilots active is for using it as carrier or amphibious carrier.
Impressive as many other times spanish with little making much.
Other example are the Ab212 that can bo in the Lhd frequently as well, from 1974, 7 helos updated whole electronics, everything, for 21 million for upto 2025-30. 50-55 years old in 2025-30.
I cannot past the links but are in Infodefensa.com.
Blas de Lezo
Member
Apparently it can also do this
http://youtu.be/Y-v7_gvGA-Q
All spots tried, so.... so far we have seen the v22 on the lift, in the garage, and taking off from al spots on JCI.
Not bad
http://youtu.be/Y-v7_gvGA-Q
All spots tried, so.... so far we have seen the v22 on the lift, in the garage, and taking off from al spots on JCI.
Not bad
Thanks for that, very interesting indeed.
As we all know we have only ever seen publicly from the Spanish Armada, RAN and from Navantia reference to only 1 spot for the V22's.
Still and expensive toy to have though
Cheers
Would be nice to have some organic AEW though (sometime during the life of the RAN's LHD's) We can't always rely on the RAAF
No arguments here on that point, I would be guessing/assuming that by the time they realise that and make some firm decisions that there would be a good chance of UAV AEW ?
Cheers
Blas de Lezo
Member
Exactly my thoughts for the Armada , our Sea Kings have done an excellent service on that roll but they are well past their frame life.
Wish we had some extra cash somewhere......,
Your economy is on the up again, so maybe things will improve soon.
A question re helicopter deck parking on the Juan Carlos 1 / Canberra class.
Is there scope to park helicopters on the flight deck next to the island superstructure and still conduct flight opperations as is done with HMS Ocean and the former Invincible class.These ships are not too dissimilar in size and yet I have seen no imagery of it being done so are wondering is it lack of room, or is it just that it's defined as reserved space for flight deck vehicles only.
IMO the more parking space for helicopters that can be found on deck the more usable space you have in the hanger/garage. An extra 3 to 4 helicopter parks on the flight deck in addition to the existing spots I'm sure would not go astray.
Would appreciate any assistance
Regards S
I know there may still be a lot of fine tuning to be done, but is there a general plan as to which units will contribute detachments in the event the LHDs are dispatched on a HADR mission similar to cyclone pam in Vanuatu.
For example would the LHD need to sail north to pick up MH90s and CH47s before departing for the island. I know there are Blackhawks with 6th Aviation in Sydney, but is it better to incur some delay and use the the larger more capable aircraft.
The same applies to the combat support elements required, (medical,transport, engineers etc ) will they come from Sydney based units, be flown in from elsewhere or picked up in transit. Perhaps a combination of all three.
Would it be better to base the LHDs further north, closer to to majority of the army's field units. This would seem to be better for both for day to day training and speedy dispatch in the event of an emergency.
For example would the LHD need to sail north to pick up MH90s and CH47s before departing for the island. I know there are Blackhawks with 6th Aviation in Sydney, but is it better to incur some delay and use the the larger more capable aircraft.
The same applies to the combat support elements required, (medical,transport, engineers etc ) will they come from Sydney based units, be flown in from elsewhere or picked up in transit. Perhaps a combination of all three.
Would it be better to base the LHDs further north, closer to to majority of the army's field units. This would seem to be better for both for day to day training and speedy dispatch in the event of an emergency.
It wouldn't really make sense to base the LHDs anywhere but where they are in Sydney, for many reasons.
The landing force could come from any of the brigades, so the LHDs might have to go to Townsville, Brisbane, Darwin or Adelaide to pick up the embarked force, so there is really no one spot you could put them that would be convenient for all.
Another point is that, in the event of an emergency that needs an amphibious response, it takes time to conduct planning on what it is you need to take with you, giving orders to those units and allowing them to prepare, and then mustering everything at the port for embarkation. So even if the LHD was based in the same city as the embarked force, it's not like they would simply drive aboard and off they go - it would still take days for everything to get to sea. As it is, the sea transit time for the LHD is the time used for the preparation of the embarked force (and preparation of the ship to receive the embarked force), so when it arrives the embarked forces will be mustered at the port ready to embark as soon as it docks.
Another point is that Sydney is where the escorts are based, so even if the LHDs were based further north you would still need time for the escorts to transit north and close up (and lose the opportunity for the task group commander to conduct planning/orders/rehearsals with all his ships en route). Also, all ammunition for the amphibs and escorts is taken on at Eden, south of Sydney. As it stands all ships will depart Sydney, move down to Eden to receive ammunition, then head off to wherever it is they are going. It is technically possible to ammunition the ships elsewhere, but there are lots of considerations involved that would make it a much slower and more painful process (civilian ports don't like having bulk explosives lying around - who knew?)
There are also environmental factors involved. For instance, there has been a big push by local members of parliament to have the LHDs based in Townsville. A big problem with that is Townsville itself is right in the middle of the cyclone belt. So for the Christmas period, which is the high risk season for disaster relief in the region, the ship itself would be right in the line of fire. In the event of a cyclone the ship would have to transit further south to get away from the danger anyway, which obviously would negate the advantage of basing it there in the first place
Basing the LHDs in Sydney isn't perfect, but it's still the best compromise there is.
The landing force could come from any of the brigades, so the LHDs might have to go to Townsville, Brisbane, Darwin or Adelaide to pick up the embarked force, so there is really no one spot you could put them that would be convenient for all.
Another point is that, in the event of an emergency that needs an amphibious response, it takes time to conduct planning on what it is you need to take with you, giving orders to those units and allowing them to prepare, and then mustering everything at the port for embarkation. So even if the LHD was based in the same city as the embarked force, it's not like they would simply drive aboard and off they go - it would still take days for everything to get to sea. As it is, the sea transit time for the LHD is the time used for the preparation of the embarked force (and preparation of the ship to receive the embarked force), so when it arrives the embarked forces will be mustered at the port ready to embark as soon as it docks.
Another point is that Sydney is where the escorts are based, so even if the LHDs were based further north you would still need time for the escorts to transit north and close up (and lose the opportunity for the task group commander to conduct planning/orders/rehearsals with all his ships en route). Also, all ammunition for the amphibs and escorts is taken on at Eden, south of Sydney. As it stands all ships will depart Sydney, move down to Eden to receive ammunition, then head off to wherever it is they are going. It is technically possible to ammunition the ships elsewhere, but there are lots of considerations involved that would make it a much slower and more painful process (civilian ports don't like having bulk explosives lying around - who knew?)
There are also environmental factors involved. For instance, there has been a big push by local members of parliament to have the LHDs based in Townsville. A big problem with that is Townsville itself is right in the middle of the cyclone belt. So for the Christmas period, which is the high risk season for disaster relief in the region, the ship itself would be right in the line of fire. In the event of a cyclone the ship would have to transit further south to get away from the danger anyway, which obviously would negate the advantage of basing it there in the first place
Basing the LHDs in Sydney isn't perfect, but it's still the best compromise there is.
And the other big issue is the access to the ports and the risk of being 'bottled' up. Sydney is a deep water port with unrestricted waters beyond the port entry. North Queensland ports are within the reef restricting the number of egress options and meaning vesel or are within these restricted routes much longer with a number of choke points well beyond the coast.
To be honest even getting in and out of Brisbane is not easy with extended standby times.
There is very limited utility in basing further north given it is essentially a day or so (about 27 hours at 17 knots) from Sydney to Brisbane and vessels are more likely to transit outside the reef negating any advantage.
While your answer is no doubt comprehensive and correct in so far as the necessity for the LHDs to be home ported in Sydney, I have to ask whether ammunitioning is a high priority on HADR missions? I can see the need for small arms ammo in the event that the destination has become (or started out) lawless, but I'm not sure that it's generally the first thing on anyone's mind.
oldsig
True, in a HADR response mission ammunition won't be a priority at all. All the other considerations apply though.
With HADR, there is essentially two different things we can assist with - the response and the recovery. The response is obviously about providing aid in the immediate aftermath of an emergency, things life SAR, providing first aid, immediate needs like food and clean water. Recovery is the long term rebuild, providing long term accomodation, rebuilding infrastructure, getting services like power and water back online etc.
The thing is, unless the amphib force is already at sea, it is unable to assist in the response phase of a natural disaster. If the amphib was alongside here in Australia, the time it would take to get to sea, warn out an embarked force, load an embarked force and transit to the area would mean it would get there too late. Where we can assist in the response is with the ARE, which will spend about four months each year sailing around the region doing various things. If the ARE is already at sea, obviously they will be able to respond to a disaster very quickly, and be able to assist with the reponse. This is why you see the ARE being advertised as having HADR as a primary role, despite only being a reinforced combat team of infantry - the speed with which they can arrive at a disaster and the organic mobility they bring makes them a very, very effective response force.
To assist in the recovery phase of a disaster, generic forces like the ARE aren't helpful, because the embarked force needs to be tailored to the scenario and bring the specific assets and capabilities that are needed. This actually takes a fair bit of time to plan - you need to allow time for governments, AGOs, NGOs etc to assess the situation and work out how to respond. Generally this will call for people like engineers with heavy engineering plant and lots of other heavy and bulky stores. It takes a long time to gather these capabilities together and embark them, and then to transit to the area.
Essentially this all means that for the amphib force, they will rarely have to rush to sea to respond to a disaster. If they aren't already at sea with embarked forces they will not be able to respond quickly enough to be part of the response force, and therefore there is actually a lot of time before they will need to arrive as part of the recovery force. Which again reinforces that the amphibs don't need to be based in the north to be effective.
Excellent video mate, thanks for posting it.
Disaster commitees should be made to watch it as part of their inductions.
Disaster commitees should be made to watch it as part of their inductions.
The Spanish routinely parked folded Hueys between the island and the stbd foul line. It does not disrupt RW or STOVL evolutions. Plenty of room there for folded Tigers, but they rarely embark in JCI.
But don't you just love the lack of OH&S BS as the sailors go about their tasks. No one got hurt, they all got sunburnt and enjoyed working in shorts and no shirt. One of the most unpleasant tasks was cleaning out tons of rotten prawns from the NR prawn factory, the men could only last a few minutes, even with respirators, before coming out and vomiting profusely, then back for another set. Not a pleasant task.
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