JSF in trouble again

RonnyMarl

New Member
News media here are reporting that the JSF is in trouble again. On the radio today, I heard that the cockpit design was so bad that it had to be done again. TV news tonight says that internal (Defence) documents show there is a problem with the cockpit display and with the software development and apparently the Minister for Defence, Brenden Nelson, is heading to the USA for discussions. Anyone heard anything about this?

If it is the case, what are the cost and schedule implications? Will this plane ever fly? The prototype looked apretty cool aircraft on the TV.

Could all be just media speculation, after all the TV news said it was a $16b development project.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
RonnyMarl said:
News media here are reporting that the JSF is in trouble again. On the radio today, I heard that the cockpit design was so bad that it had to be done again. TV news tonight says that internal (Defence) documents show there is a problem with the cockpit display and with the software development and apparently the Minister for Defence, Brenden Nelson, is heading to the USA for discussions. Anyone heard anything about this?
It's all crap. So much so in fact that Defence went to the almost unprecedented step of issuing its own release today...

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=5764

RonnyMarl said:
If it is the case, what are the cost and schedule implications? Will this plane ever fly? The prototype looked apretty cool aircraft on the TV.
It's due to fly in October.

RonnyMarl said:
Could all be just media speculation, after all the TV news said it was a $16b development project.
More like a slow news day for a tabloid disguised as a broadsheet!

Magoo
 

RonnyMarl

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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And that press release sounds like a lot of crap to me.

Part of the debate on the JSF has been the transfer of technology. A huge part of that technology would be the transfer software ( the UK have made a big deal of that). To say that we have someone from DSTO over there monitoring the software development is fine but how much access does that person have to the code? Given that there is still debate on technology transfer, I can't image that it is a great deal of access.

I've been involved with Defence projects that have developed software. One in particular was very simple in terms of what it had to deliver in comparison to the JSF but still had over a million lines of code. As simple as the outcomes were in comparison, it took years to develop and further years to get the bugs out. I'm sure that they are leveraging of the F-22 software, but the project I was involved in was leveraging off another project.

I can't comment on the cockpit display - it is not an area I have any experience in. All I can say is that the whole press release looks like smoke amd mirrors to me. It says a lot but in the end doesn't say much at all quoting "2005" all the time. Guess what - this is 2006.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
See -

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/14885178.htm

The JSF Program is now entering that phase of its life where Congressional oversight will dominate and for some time. It is time to start cashing in the 'cash cow' ticket. This will likely be done through cuts in numbers.

As for whether the Defence media release if crap or not, the claim that the PO has good access and is getting good data is not supported by what is in the December 2005 report by DSTO wherein they say the lack of solid information and data is a risk, in itself.

However, standby for a PR blitz on all of this 'cause that's all they have - to coin a phrase that is now oftentimes used in relation to seniors officials in defence - sophistry and spin. The folks at the working level, like within DSTO and the squadrons know but.
 
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rjmaz1

New Member
The article has no credibility what so ever.

They are clutching at straws and the main reason it came up was in the argument that we should buy the F-22. Some people are trying to gather as much dirt as possible on the JSF to make Australia order the F-22 instead.

Either way the JSF is still awesome.

I'd prefer Australia to purchase the F-22 though as it has a much longer supersonic range, allowing it to cover nearly twice as much territory in the same amount of time.
 

Occum

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rjmaz1 said:
The article has no credibility what so ever.


Either way the JSF is still awesome.

I'd prefer Australia to purchase the F-22 though as it has a much longer supersonic range, allowing it to cover nearly twice as much territory in the same amount of time.

Which article are you referring to - the one in the Australian on the DSTO reports or the one about the US Senate vote?


Don't forget, the JSF has yet to fly and be flight tested.


A good point about F-22 coverage and I agree but for all the other reasons as well, including cost, capability and risk. Also, on the point of coverage, don't forget the radar and the greater power aperture! Can't change the laws of physics though some 'generals' in the department and on this newsgroup think they can.

;)
 

alexsa

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Staff member
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A brief look at history may be useful at this time.

In 1964 Australia signed a contract for 24 F111. delivery was due to start late 1967. The outcome was much different as fatigue issues in the complex (and dare I say it cutting edge airfarme) pushed the delivery back to starting in 1973 (6 years late) after considerable cost blow out and the lease of an interim aircraft. Nobody would argue (including Kopp and Goon) taht we made the right choice in persisting wiht such a troublesome unproven aircraft.

Funny this has a very familiar ring to it sounding much like the debate going on with the JSF (noting that both the F-111 and F-35 were born from a desire for a joint airframe for the USAF and USN). At the time many were in favour of scrapping the F-111 deal alltogether becasue it seemed a step too far. Currently, as a result of a congress decision, the JSF has just been pushed back 1 year but it seems to have great potential for the role it is intended. The F-111 went back 6 years an proved to be a fantasitic platform.

Suggestion; how about a balanced discussion on the the capabilities of the aircraft and the alternaitive available. From what I have read we should consider the following:

1. The F22 has not been offered to Australia as far as anybody can say.
2. The F22 does not have the multirole capability of the JSF without additional cost.
3. The official word is the the JSF will still cost a great deal less than F22. If this changes then I guess DMO will look carefully at the next decision point.
4. The JSF is a quatum leap over anything else operated in the region in so far as stealth and NCW is concerned (lets face it the Su30 has the RCS of a barn). If we don't get the JSF and the F-22 is not offered and/or proves to be too bloody expensive (noting the need to upgrade for NCW and strike) what are we going to choose (please nobody say evolved F-111, remember the barn size RCS of the Su30, well the f-111 if of the ilk.)
5. The JSF give the ADF the option (however unlikely) of operating a close to common air frame at sea on the LPD's and on land.

On this basis DMO must continue to evaluate this aircraft with a view to purchase. Should it become apparent that it is not going to perform or it will cost a great deal more than expected then revaluation should be considred. In the current sitaation the carry on seems premature.

Personnaly I like the idea of a F-22/F-35 mix but Iam realistic enough to realise the cost and capability issue are very likley to preclude this.
 

Occum

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Personnaly I like the idea of a F-22/F-35 mix but Iam realistic enough to realise the cost and capability issue are very likley to preclude this.
The weakness in this force structure is tanking. Without tanking neither the F/A-18 Classic nor the JSF can get to Lombok.

A single point of failure in a force structure is not a good idea.
 

alexsa

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Staff member
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Occum said:
The weakness in this force structure is tanking. Without tanking neither the F/A-18 Classic nor the JSF can get to Lombok.

A single point of failure in a force structure is not a good idea.
Can the F-22? The F-111 has fantasitic range but no stealth and can only rely on terrain for protection when over land (noting much of the mission is over sea).

The combination of JSSM and JSF appear to give a pretty good reach. The A330 will extend that.
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Occum said:
The weakness in this force structure is tanking. Without tanking neither the F/A-18 Classic nor the JSF can get to Lombok.

A single point of failure in a force structure is not a good idea.
Who needs to get to Lombok! Nothing I've seen indicates that we have to worry about that in the short to medium term. However if in the medium term we did have to hit targets to our north then we will have the JSF operational with tanking support and new stand-off weapons. Recently the JASSM has been touted as being upgraded to even greater stand-off ranges which if they eventuate will result in the ADF ending up with similar range capabilities to the current F-111 fleet (without tanking). PLUS we get all of the other benefits of having a real 5thGen aircraft (NCW + stealth as mentioned ad naseum) as opposed to a re-hashed 3rd or 4th Gen aircraft. People get stuck on the red circles around a map of Northern Aus, PNG/Indo - I would argue that we should not be overly concerned about range alone.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
JASSM-ER won't enable what you are hoping. Take a look at the Defence endorsed maps in the ASPI Paper entitled 'The Big Deal'. They are not quite right but close enough for government work.

But why not F-22s to do exactly the same thing, only much better.

See -
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123022371
 

Occum

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Verified Defense Pro
Who needs to get to Lombok! Nothing I've seen indicates that we have to worry about that in the short to medium term.
What gets bought through the NACC Project has got to last Australia some 30 to 40 years. Why not buy the best, particularly when it will be cheaper (both unit price and fleet price) and is far less risky?
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Occum said:
JASSM-ER won't enable what you are hoping. Take a look at the Defence endorsed maps in the ASPI Paper entitled 'The Big Deal'. They are not quite right but close enough for government work.

But why not F-22s to do exactly the same thing, only much better.

See -
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123022371
For a few reasons;
1. As of right now the F-22 has not been offered to anyone outside of the USAF
2. The F-22 whilst being the pre-eminent air-superiority fighter is not going to the 'able' multi-role aircraft that many seem to believe (my opinion only of course) but one that seems to be held by the planners in the USAF and USN who are looking at the F-35 as their bomb truck/mud mover.
3. The cost - even with your high-range estimates for the JSF and assuming that the ADF is way off target with their platform cost estimates the JSF is not going to cost as much as the Raptor. You've pointed out before how nice it would be and how cheap it would be if orders for the Raptor went up into the 1000+ airframes - I agree wouldn't it be nice! But that all assumes the US will sell Raptors via FMS AND that allies will actually buy them. None of this is actually true today.

What makes you say that JASSM won't be able to add range to the strike capability of the JSF? I suggest you take a look at this and have a think about it.

Source: JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - MAY 31, 2006 "JASSM-ER test flight proves a success"

"Lockheed Martin completed a successful test flight of an extended-range variant of its AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM-ER) on 18 May"...."The new variant has a range of about 950 km, a greater fuel capacity and is fitted with a more powerful engine, larger wings and tail. JASSM has a range of about 300 km."


Also, I've notice that whilst making some pretty good points and certainly arguing fervently why won't you accept that the ADF brass/DMO/DSTO/DefMin might actually be on the right track?
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Occum said:
JASSM-ER won't enable what you are hoping. Take a look at the Defence endorsed maps in the ASPI Paper entitled 'The Big Deal'. They are not quite right but close enough for government work.

But why not F-22s to do exactly the same thing, only much better.

See -
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123022371
Nice article but it still relates to the air dominace role not strike. No argument, the F22 can do that better than any other aircraft, but still need changes to be an ISR asset comparable to what is intended in the JSF as far as I have read. To bring this to reality as I noted before:

1. The F22 has not been offered to Australia as far as anybody can say.
2. The F22 does not have the multirole capability of the JSF without additional cost.
3. The official word is the the JSF will still cost a great deal less than F22. If this changes then I guess DMO will look carefully at the next decision point.
4. The JSF is a quatum leap over anything else operated in the region in so far as stealth and NCW is concerned (lets face it the Su30 has the RCS of a barn). If we don't get the JSF and the F-22 is not offered and/or proves to be too bloody expensive (noting the need to upgrade for NCW and strike) what are we going to choose.
5. The JSF give the ADF the option (however unlikely) of operating a close to common air frame at sea on the LPD's and on land.

However the counter argument I see from much of the discussion is that we should:

1. Go for the F-22 whihc is not currnetly on offer and is not a true multi role strike aircraft at this stage and/or
2. Evolve the F-111. This should give those S-300's, that Mr Kopp is so concnered about, some great target practice.
3. pay off the other two services to pay for it. Mind you Carlo Kopp did state at one stage that the only purpose for land and sea forces was to provide targetting for aircraft.

I think the current debate is very poorly balanced.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Occum said:
The weakness in this force structure is tanking. Without tanking neither the F/A-18 Classic nor the JSF can get to Lombok.
You wouldn't buy an F-22 because it has greater range than the F-35. Besides, the F-35 reportedly has greater internal fuel capacity (~19.5k lbs vs ~18k lbs) and (granted, on paper) has a greater combat radius than the F-22 with internal stores. So, whether they're going to Lombok, Jakarta or Beijing, the JSF and the F-22 will have similar range issues.

Where I agree with Kopp and Goon is the fact that five tankers will not be enough for Australia to maintain high intensity operations in a full-blown regional conflict. Whether that is politically or strategically likely or not, I think at least three or four more MRTTs would be a prudent investment in an AIR5402 'Tranche 2' buy, to give us a true operational capability rather than the limited support capability at best offered by just five aircraft. Five aircraft is fine for dragging a six-ship across the Pacific to Red Flag, or a squadron to Curtin for an exercise, but when you take reserve aircraft into account, at least eight to ten makes much more sense.

Now that Airbus has committed to an A330F launch (or at least, it will at Farnborough), we can also get the cargo door and floor fitted at the same time without being the lead customer and assuming the associated risk. Perhaps more funding can be diverted from Mr Costello's huge surplus to fund the estimated $1bn required, and a 'left field' initiative involving reserve crewing options in conjunction with Qantas can be devised!

But, I digress. During a chat with a senior RAAF official last week, I put it to him that perhaps, in an effort to eliminate risk to the RAAF surrounding both the Hornet centre-barrel replacement (AIR5376, Phase 3.2) AND the JSF programs, that the RAAF should consider acquiring 40-50 Block 2 Super Hornets or F-15SGs (or whatever the latest equivalent would be) from 2008, not as interim aircraft, but as a 20-year proposition. The new aircraft could be 'flogged' for 20 years, with the current 'classic' Hornets being gradually wound down from 2012 as their centre-barrels time expire.

We could then tap into the JSF program (which I still believe is the right aircraft for us) as a later customer and still as a partner in the 2016-18 timeframe, to the tune of 50-60 Block 3 airframes. The per unit acquisition cost will be coming down to somewhere near the mean NRFAC price by then, estimated to be around US$80m in 2012 dollars, and hopefully any development bugs will also have been sorted.

Some very rough costings would see:

  • 50 F/A-18Fs @ ~A$120m each = A$6bn
  • 60 JSFs @ ~A$120m = $7.2bn
  • = ~A$13.2bn (est.)
  • less >A$1bn (est.) for Hornet centre-barrels
  • less >A$1bn (est.) for Pig ops in 2011 & 12
  • = A$11.2bn (est.)
Although there are numerous short term non-recurring costs and personnel issues associated with standing up a new type (and the Super Hornet is a completely new type compared to our 'classics'), this represents a potential real saving over the A$15.5bn currently budgeted for AIR6000, whilst also removing three large elements of risk surrounding the HUG program, keeping the Pigs an extra two years, and buying early JSFs. At the same time, we could still remain partners in the JSF program, and hopefully maintain the Australian industry participation in the program (although this is likely to drop if we only buy 60 jets compared to the currently planned 100).

Such a buy would also stagger the life-of-type (i.e. replacement) of these aircraft, with the Super Hornets from the late 2020s, and the JSFs 10-15 years later, instead of the current budget nightmare we have of having to replace 100+ combat aircraft at once!

His answer was interesting to say the least. Thoughts???

Magoo
 
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Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
Magoo said:
But, I digress. During a chat with a senior RAAF official last week, I put it to him that perhaps, in an effort to eliminate risk to the RAAF surrounding both the Hornet centre-barrel replacement (AIR5376, Phase 3.2) AND the JSF programs, that the RAAF should consider acquiring 40-50 Block 2 Super Hornets or F-15SGs (or whatever the latest equivalent would be) from 2008, not as interim aircraft, but as a 20-year proposition. The new aircraft could be 'flogged' for 20 years, with the current 'classic' Hornets being gradually wound down from 2012 as their centre-barrels time expire.

We could then tap into the JSF program (which I still believe is the right aircraft for us) as a later customer and still as a partner in the 2016-18 timeframe, to the tune of 50-60 Block 3 airframes. The per unit acquisition cost will be coming down to somewhere near the mean NRFAC price by then, estimated to be around US$80m in 2012 dollars, and hopefully any development bugs will also have been sorted.

Some very rough costings would see:

  • 50 F/A-18Fs @ ~A$120m each = A$6bn
  • 60 JSFs @ ~A$120m = $7.2bn
  • = ~A$13.2bn (est.)
  • less >A$1bn (est.) for Hornet centre-barrels
  • less >A$1bn (est.) for Pig ops in 2011 & 12
  • = A$11.2bn (est.)
Although there are numerous short term non-recurring costs and personnel issues associated with standing up a new type (and the Super Hornet is a completely new type compared to our 'classics'), this represents a potential real saving over the A$15.5bn currently budgeted for AIR6000, whilst also removing three large elements of risk surrounding the HUG program, keeping the Pigs an extra two years, and buying early JSFs. At the same time, we could still remain partners in the JSF program, and hopefully maintain the Australian industry participation in the program (although this is likely to drop if we only buy 60 jets compared to the currently planned 100).

Such a buy would also stagger the life-of-type (i.e. replacement) of these aircraft, with the Super Hornets from the late 2020s, and the JSFs 10-15 years later, instead of the current budget nightmare we have of having to replace 100+ combat aircraft at once!

His answer was interesting to say the least. Thoughts???

Magoo
I believe that to be a sensible option, works on paper, would be interesting to see the reaction you got from the RAAF officer.

I note, and I am not suggesting that this is the case with the RAAF, that sometimes a branch of the service will get fixated on a shiny new toy, much like a kid in the toy store, and the new toy will do everything and be the answer to everything. Very dangerous especially if they use there standing as 'experts' in the field to convince the politicians.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Magoo said:
But, I digress. During a chat with a senior RAAF official last week, I put it to him that perhaps, in an effort to eliminate risk to the RAAF surrounding both the Hornet centre-barrel replacement (AIR5376, Phase 3.2) AND the JSF programs, that the RAAF should consider acquiring 40-50 Block 2 Super Hornets or F-15SGs (or whatever the latest equivalent would be) from 2008, not as interim aircraft, but as a 20-year proposition. The new aircraft could be 'flogged' for 20 years, with the current 'classic' Hornets being gradually wound down from 2012 as their centre-barrels time expire.

We could then tap into the JSF program (which I still believe is the right aircraft for us) as a later customer and still as a partner in the 2016-18 timeframe, to the tune of 50-60 Block 3 airframes. The per unit acquisition cost will be coming down to somewhere near the mean NRFAC price by then, estimated to be around US$80m in 2012 dollars, and hopefully any development bugs will also have been sorted.

Some very rough costings would see:

  • 50 F/A-18Fs @ ~A$120m each = A$6bn
  • 60 JSFs @ ~A$120m = $7.2bn
  • = ~A$13.2bn (est.)
  • less >A$1bn (est.) for Hornet centre-barrels
  • less >A$1bn (est.) for Pig ops in 2011 & 12
  • = A$11.2bn (est.)
Although there are numerous short term non-recurring costs and personnel issues associated with standing up a new type (and the Super Hornet is a completely new type compared to our 'classics'), this represents a potential real saving over the A$15.5bn currently budgeted for AIR6000, whilst also removing three large elements of risk surrounding the HUG program, keeping the Pigs an extra two years, and buying early JSFs. At the same time, we could still remain partners in the JSF program, and hopefully maintain the Australian industry participation in the program (although this is likely to drop if we only buy 60 jets compared to the currently planned 100).

Such a buy would also stagger the life-of-type (i.e. replacement) of these aircraft, with the Super Hornets from the late 2020s, and the JSFs 10-15 years later, instead of the current budget nightmare we have of having to replace 100+ combat aircraft at once!

His answer was interesting to say the least. Thoughts???

Magoo
I like it. I'm a big fan of swapping out the Pigs and a Sqn or 2 of the oldest legacy Hornets for SH's. I think F-15 might be a step too far, but SH shouldn't be too much of a drama, whilst still maintaining an air combat aircraft that is more capable than our HUG BUGS.

Your costings look about right and though I think JSF is the right "long term" combat aircraft for RAAF, I don't see any great need to rush into the capability from the very start of the project, so long as our current fighters are viable, both structurally and capability wise for a while longer, which new build SH's certainly would be.

I DO think that RAAF should always maintain a minimum of 4 fighter/strike Sqn's though, giving us 3x Sqn's to provide "homeland defence" and 1x Sqn to provide a deployment option, so an eventual SH replacement would have to be programed.

Possibly by 2020-2025 a stealthy UCAV based solution would be a viable strike option and could provide RAAF with a good capability enhancement.

Interesting to see if RAAF pursue this idea, and secondly whether they can strongly convince their political masters to take the "hit" that would come from the decision politically, given the interest shown in JSF to date.

Reports from Boeing indicate that they could supply RAAF with SH in 2-3 years if ordered...
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Umm, what was his response if I may be so bold as to ask?

I don't disagree on a few extra tankers and I remember hearing something about 5 QANTAS 330-200 being offered.

In respect of your proposal I would prefer to F-15 but realise the Super hornet is a better matach for us.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
alexsa said:
Umm, what was his response if I may be so bold as to ask?
Sorry, it was over a beer, and therefore shall forever remain off the record until he tells me otherwise.

Magoo
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Magoo said:
Sorry, it was over a beer, and therefore shall forever remain off the record until he tells me otherwise.

Magoo
Been hanging out at (Admin: reference deleted) again eh???
 
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