Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force Thread

[t68]

Actually its going to be an interesting one to watch as it also must be remembered that in 2014 the Japanese Defence Minister Itsunori Onodera expressed a desire for a multi-role ship for large scale C&C transportation for troops and aviation assets for amphibious operations, the talk at the times was something around WASP size. in the meantime the have upgraded the Osumi class to operate AAV7A1 amphibious vehicles

 

[t68]

China is now questioning the implications of a possible move by the Japanese in regards to the F35B question. Maybe the have forgotten Newtown's third law " For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

China urges Japan to ‘act cautiously’ on considerations to refit Izumo class for F-35Bs | Jane's 360

 

[the concerned]

China is now questioning the implications of a possible move by the Japanese in regards to the F35B question. Maybe the have forgotten Newtown's third law " For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

China urges Japan to ‘act cautiously’ on considerations to refit Izumo class for F-35Bs | Jane's 360

 

[the concerned]

Do you's think Japan would consider nuclear attack subs to match China and provide extra capability against North Korea

 

[t68]

Do you's think Japan would consider nuclear attack subs to match China and provide extra capability against North Korea

politicly no, but the operating advantages of a small SSN cant be ignored strategically as is the same for the RAN

 

[hauritz]

China is now questioning the implications of a possible move by the Japanese in regards to the F35B question. Maybe the have forgotten Newtown's third law " For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

China urges Japan to ‘act cautiously’ on considerations to refit Izumo class for F-35Bs | Jane's 360

Is China really all that surprised that Japan will likely to want to boost their own defences in response to their shipbuilding programs or are they just blowing hot air?

They also have South Korea thinking of operating F-35s from the Dokdo class as well.

I would suggest that it China that needs to act cautiously if it doesn't want the regional arms race to escalate even further.

 

[Ananda]

Somehow in PRC thinking (at least on some that come out of their media)..They have the right to build Carrier Battle Groups for the sake not just China but of Asian security.

At the same time, they see Japan and ROK build up as none other then playing to US interest to curtail China military growth to it's rightfull place.

That their neighbours will react defensively by building their own military as to answered to Chinese build up seems not sink in to many Chinese public. Look at many articles in Chinese media or what Chinese netters wrote in internet...They do believe that they have the right to build up their military, while other Asian neighbours should stay put and accept that, without trying to counter by build up their own.

Japan ability to answered on any Chinese build up is there. They can build their own SSN, even their own Nuclear arsenal if it's need too. ROK also have that ability.

China should realise if they continue let North Korea in building their nuclear arsenal and at same time continue build up it's own military, Japan and ROK will answered it..and they have the ability to do it..
Seems with most of internet access in China control and handle by domestic engines like baidu etc, most china live in their own perspective. They simply did not realise, by pushing Japan, they also turn back most Japanese from passive state of mind into defensive state of mind..

And it already happen, there are talk in Japan now to increase their military spending from 1% of GDP to 2% of GDP..to match Chinese ones (at least not far in GDP percentage)..
That, we are talking from USD 47 bio to USD 94 bio..If that come..they can convert not just 2 of current Izumo class to STVOL operation..but also build another 2 with similar capabilities. That's in theory can put 48 F-35B on the sea.

ROK will follow with at least 2 modified Dokdo class, which in theory also can put at least 20+ F-35B on their own. Well both Japan and ROK already stated their intention for further F-35..it's easy for them to change the order from A to B version.

 

[t68]

I believe its the action of unattended consequence. Whilst the intent maybe sea control its ultimately aimed to counter US influence. Until the US is in a position where it can no longer provide the necessary counter balance JPN & SK will not pursue weapons of mass destruction its still a milestone that would take close to a generation to achieve.

 

[swerve]

I like the idea of this sort of ship.

It could work as an anti-submarine platform, support amphibious operations and disaster relief. I agree it would be useful to Australia as primarily an ASW ship but also as back-up for the Canberra class.

I don't think it would be a particularly effective fixed-wing aircraft carrier though with no ski-jump and no deck heat protection....

Yes, but if a foreign navy wanted to buy some, I'm sure such minor design changes could be made. They're the changes being proposed to the current ships. They could be done in a refit.

There are reports that both Japan and South Korea are investigating the possibility of operating the F-35B off their flattops. In Japans case it would be the Izumo class DDH and South Korea, the Dokdo class of LHD. In both cases the ships would have to be substantially modified. However in Japan's case, this could create problems around the issue of them operation CVs.

The Dokdo class is a lot smaller than Izumo. Almost 50 metres shorter, 7 metres narrower, 8000 tons lighter (full load). And several knots slower. I think they'd need a lot more work than Izumo & be less satisfactory. Izumo is the same size & speed as Cavour.

 

[swerve]

A Japanese delegation inspected the UK CV HMS Queen Elizabeth, I imagine its to gain a different perspective in STOVL operations and how these impact on CV operations and the determination of aircraft numbers. Realistically how much does the Izumo class need to be modified an article states the obvious needs such as the bow and deck but what maybe they also may need increased elevators to handle the weight of a F35B(speculation only) what about increasing the bunkerage for jet fuel and increased explosive magazine, how does limiting the helicopter capacity effect current conops on how they operate now. For these reasons its not a given that they will modify the existing ships they may opt for new build to take advantage of some of the things listed.

The lifts are both more than big enough for an F-35B, & they take a V-22. I don't know the maximum load, but if they can't take a loaded F-35B I'd be a bit surprised.

 

[swerve]

New build would be the most likely. Unless the current ships in the past where designed and built around the possibility of operating the F-35B then the level of work required to modify it (hypothetically) would equal or exceed the cost of a new build ship not even counting the risk and delay factor. The Australian Canberra's where estimated I believe at $1.5 billion AUD to modify and that is for a class that was designed around operating the F-35B.

But have the Canberras had the F-35B-friendly features built-in? IIRC, apart from the ski-jump, lifts & other structural factors which are common to all three, Juan Carlos is equipped to take plug-in kit to convert her to an auxiliary carrier. Did the RAN keep that? I'm pretty sure there were quite a few detail changes.

We should also take into account that the Canberras cost a lot more than the Spanish original. Some of that was the higher cost of doing work in Australia.

 

[t68]

But have the Canberras had the F-35B-friendly features built-in? IIRC, apart from the ski-jump, lifts & other structural factors which are common to all three, Juan Carlos is equipped to take plug-in kit to convert her to an auxiliary carrier. Did the RAN keep that? I'm pretty sure there were quite a few detail changes.
.

Agree, whilst they are not a total replica of the Spanish variant I'm still sceptical of the claimed 1.5B conversion cost (750m per ship?)

We should also take into account that the Canberras cost a lot more than the Spanish original. Some of that was the higher cost of doing work in Australia.

Yep Australianisation of the vessel, I'm lead to believe fit out is to a higher standard

 

[Ananda]

I believe its the action of unattended consequence. Whilst the intent maybe sea control its ultimately aimed to counter US influence. Until the US is in a position where it can no longer provide the necessary counter balance JPN & SK will not pursue weapons of mass destruction its still a milestone that would take close to a generation to achieve.

On weapon of mass destruction, I believe if need be and 'if' the political will and public support behind it, Japan can reach it much sooner than close a generation time frame. They already have stoke pile of Plutonium, and have technology to weaponise them. For delivery system, their space agency satelite delivery system, is already in advance enough level that change it to MIRV is not big endavour to do.
ROK, will need more effort than Japan to reach it, but considering they have much more resources and technological based then their cousin in North..well if Fat Kim can do it..Seoul can definetely done it much faster than the North if need be.
Still I agree, it will much depend on how both Japan and ROK see US policy on covering nuclear umbrella to them progressing in future.

Back to Izumo, it's very interesting how this will progressing. Izumo already in right size to operate at least a fozen F-35B, and modifying internal infrastructure can be done considering it's already operationally capable for V-22. They do have to add sky jum facilities. However it's very doable, which I believe why China do take alarm on this, cause they knew Japan is in possition to change both Izumo's as CV in relative short period.

For ROK, I do agree with Swerve, Dokdo is too small to be modified for that purpose. However, ROK have enough technology, resources and facilities to lengthen and widen Dokdo design for CV purpose. They will do it, I believe, if Japan decided to modified Izumo's.
As for larger Izumo design, I believe they already have prepared it..if not mistaken on reading some Japanese internet..

 

[t68]

On weapon of mass destruction, I believe if need be and 'if' the political will and public support behind it, Japan can reach it much sooner than close a generation time frame. They already have stoke pile of Plutonium, and have technology to weaponised them. For delivery system, their space agency satellite delivery system, is already in advance enough level that change it to MIRV is not big endeavour to do.
ROK, will need more effort than Japan to reach it, but considering they have much more resources and technological based then their cousin in North. Well if Fat Kim can do it. Seoul can definitely done it much faster than the North if need be.
Still I agree, it will much depend on how both Japan and ROK see US policy on covering nuclear umbrella to them progressing in future.

Agree that they have less technical hurdles to overcome

Back to Izumo, it's very interesting how this will progressing. Izumo already in right size to operate at least a dozen F-35B, and modifying internal infrastructure can be done considering it's already operationally capable for V-22. They do have to add ski jump facilities. However it's very doable, which I believe why China do take alarm on this, cause they knew Japan is in position to change both Izumo's as CV in relative short period.

Agree even the US changed the Essex class from a thru deck carrier to a angled design in 9 months (SCB-125) But I'm not convinced that they will go down this road as they had aspirations in the past for an Amphibious warfare vessel in the size of the USN Wasp class

For ROK, I do agree with Swerve, Dokdo is too small to be modified for that purpose. However, ROK have enough technology, resources and facilities to lengthen and widen Dokdo design for CV purpose. They will do it, I believe, if Japan decided to modified Izumo's.
As for larger Izumo design, I believe they already have prepared it..if not mistaken on reading some Japanese internet..

I tend to think that SK wont do it as there immediate concern is NK China a secondary concern but a concern none the less

 

[weaponwh]

as far as japan gettting F35B, they likely need to change its article 9 1st before acquire F35B, that will take long time.

 

[t68]

as far as japan gettting F35B, they likely need to change its article 9 1st before acquire F35B, that will take long time.

That's an interpretation, if it were interpreted in that fashion JMSDF would not have Aegis equipped destroyer either that have offensive and defensive capability let alone submarines they would look more like the USCG

 

[alexsa]

Agree, whilst they are not a total replica of the Spanish variant I'm still sceptical of the claimed 1.5B conversion cost (750m per ship?)



Yep Australianisation of the vessel, I'm lead to believe fit out is to a higher standard

Actually below the flight deck I understand they are identical. The issue is that the carriage of F35Bs will compromise other missions and there was some question as to how long they could sustain operations. Flight deck coatings may also need work but the solution instituted on the QE may be suitable.... but not cheap.

However the ability of the F35B to provide situational awareness and targeting for SM6 adds utility even with a small number of airframes. I suspect this could be the attraction for Japan.

I suspect that we will not see the F35B on the LHD unless something changes.

 

[spoz]

Actually below the flight deck I understand they are identical. The issue is that the carriage of F35Bs will compromise other missions and there was some question as to how long they could sustain operations. Flight deck coatings may also need work but the solution instituted on the QE may be suitable.... but not cheap.

However the ability of the F35B to provide situational awareness and targeting for SM6 adds utility even with a small number of airframes. I suspect this could be the attraction for Japan.

I suspect that we will not see the F35B on the LHD unless something changes.

Agreed; and F44 capacity for fast jet ops would certainly be one significant issue even if the need was there.

For the Japanese I would imagine that if they thought they had the need and sufficient time, and could square it with their constitution, they would go for a new build. OTOH if they wanted a “quick fix” they might be tempted to try a conversion, although the end capability probably wouldn’t be as effective.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Leaving the implications and politics aside.

If the Japanese wanted to create purely an air defence carrier, carrying only air to air weapons I don't think they would need a ski-jump and I think that could possibly be acceptable under the guise of a self defence force. That would still be a very useful addition to the force, as a sensor and a2a platform.

As for the Canberras, I would be happy if they could fill the amphibious role first.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Leaving the implications and politics aside.

If the Japanese wanted to create purely an air defence carrier, carrying only air to air weapons I don't think they would need a ski-jump and I think that could possibly be acceptable under the guise of a self defence force. That would still be a very useful addition to the force, as a sensor and a2a platform.

Someone had better tell the USMC they can only carry air to air weapons on their F-35Bs.
Seriously, the USMC had the F-35B developed to launch from a flat deck in ~400 ft. (122 m) carrying a crap load more than just air to air weapons.
The Izumo-class, at 814 ft, are only 30 ft shorter than the US Navy's Wasp/America-class.. The Izumo's current bow configuration would necessitate an angled takeoff run, limiting ondeck staging of aircraft, restricting sortie rates. Which would likely already be effected by the elevator locations.