i was waiting for this ozzy,i didnt think you would be able to resist......
geesh you pommies never quit do you...... Cant wait 'till the Ashes so we can give you boys a right kicking again!
as per my 'badly put'(but correctly spelt) piece,the proof is in the pudding and as,when and if the f22 bests the tiffy in combat (and i include red flag exercises),you will be able to make a similar statement.until then,the f22 can be hyped up by its somewhat blinkered supporters but without actual evidence in the field.
First of all when i said padly put i was refereing to the guy you were quoteing.
Second the Tiffie and F22A will never meet in combat, and red flag is hardly a substitute (as has been explained many many times by many many members). Exercises have virtually no bairing on the capability of a platform because they are stacked in one or the other sides favor. They are not designed to demonstrate capability but train pilots. THAT is all. Therefore useing the outcome of a patricular exercise (this one isnt even confirmed) to justify a claim on platform A's capabilities vs platform B's, you will be wasteing your time. So even after they are both at red flag that will reveal nothing about which one is a more capable platform.
Anyway war isnt fought platform vs platform, its systems that count, and what matters in a platform is how its various capabilities fit into and complement the wider system. In this context F-22A provides many capabilities that EF-2000 does not, includeing VLO (the big one), a very capable AESA and LPI.
incidentally,if the u.s just wanted a missile carrier and not a more manoueverable aircraft then perhaps then could have gone back to the early f111 fighter development which would be just the job.
in fact the us navy realized that air to air combat in the close in regime is still very much required and necessary in the modern age and invested in the superb f14 tomcat(with the same main systems and ultra long range weaponry developed specifically for the f111)instead which was extraordinarily agile for its size and more than a match for the soviet aircraft of the era.
(presumably the f22 was given the much lauded thrust vectoring to gain a similar advantage or why did they bother if it isnt necessary?)
Because heaters were not at the same technological level they are now. Anyway maneuverability is usefull, sure, but it wont be the defineing factor in WVR combat. Consider this: The AIM 9X and AIM 132 have 290 degree and 360 degree enguagement envilopes respectively, can pull 50g's+ and have a phocal plane array that according the the manufacturor "can not be defeated by maneuver alone". Considering that, how is a low wing loading or faster turn rate going to counter HOBS heater capability I ask you?????? Let me answer, it WONT. Thats why they didnt bother with thrust vecotring on the F35, its a waste of money in the current missile environment. IRCM is much more usefull than turning ability in WVR. That my freind is a FACT! If it degrades to a gun fight then the Typhoon will probably have the advantage, but not if they are within heater range.
the fact is ozzy,you are unable to see that the f22 is not all conquering and that its disadvantages could still cause it problems against more agile opponents in the future.
i would ask that you take off your blinkers and swallow your pride on this one.(and stop making excuses!!!!)
nfloorl:
MODS;Im aware that this thread has gone off topic somewhat and its partly my fault.im sure ozzy will agree(after his reply!)
back to the j10.....
Dont claim to know what i can and cant see mate, i justify my opinions with logical evidence, not just some unconfirmed rumors of exercise results, that still dont acount for when the Typhoon was locked and fired on by the Raptor.
I dont think the Raptor is some unbeatable god, but i do think it is the most capable Air superiority fighter on th plannet, which would make sence considering it is the most expenseive and had the largest R&D budget of any fighter (pending F35). In sertain sircumstances, could a more maneuverable fighter stand its own? Sure, but those sircumstances are very very narrow. BVR not a chance... F22 has a better radar and more comprehenseive VLO than anything flying now (apart from rhino B2 with the APG 79), which means it see's first, shoots first & kills first every time, and that will NOT change untill someone makes a platform with comperable VLO & radar which is unlikely to say the least. Also its kinematical performance is much better than anything else flying which again will give the raptor an advantage in BVR. WVR well, its probably prety even with most other advanced 4.5th gen platforms becasue of comperable HOBS heater capability. An RAAF pilot at red flag last year stated that he could actually see the platform but could not track it with his radar (talk about frustrating). This can be countered to an extent by an IRST, although the Raptors IR supression would help aswell. F-22A is a BVR killer and NOTHING can stand toe to toe with it in this engagement regime, not even the mighty typhoon. WVR well, considering HOBS heaters the effect of VLO and IRCM and raptors raw performance, once F-22A is fitted with AIM 9X and JHMCS, it would be hard to argue realistically that any platform is any better. The only reason it wont perform at the moment is becasue its WVR missile is a generation behind the ASRAAM/AIM 9X. The reason it has not been upgraded to this level is becasue at the moment it doesent need to. It will pretty easilly kill anything opponent in BVR anyway, altthough it may not be allowed to in exersises (the pilots on both sides may not learn much that way).
I know you pommies love your Typhoon. Its a truely beutifull aircraft and a seriosly capable platform. However you have to be reasonable... have a look at the capabilities of the aircraft, without those nationalistic sunglasses. The F-22A is true VLO platform, has superior kinematical perforrmance and a better radar. Considering those things alone it will be a much much better BVR performer. Blind Freddy could see that. It is clearly a more capable air superiority platform, and considering the money put into the project it bloody well should be. Your the one who should be swallowing his pride mate (i have no investment in the platform, I'm an aussie and we didnt build it, i like the F35 better and i'd rather have a model of a Typhoon, no kidding), The typhoon is a great platform and a huge achievement, worthy of the pride you have in it. But dont let that cloud your judgement, It lacks some serious capabilities that only the F22 & F35 will have, & those capabilities will make them more effecteive air superiority fighters. They have either been developed later or with more moey (both on the last count i think) so there is no shame in it. Typhoon is at least a match for any other operational fighter anyware, but 5th gen it aint my friend.
Honestly, I mean really honnestly (without the nationalism) do you think in a no rules fight than a flight of Typhoons would stand a chance of surviveing (let alone defeating) a BVR engagement with a flight of Raptors???
p.s. nice photo's, i've got over 200 typhoon shots myself, i think i've got 2 of those allready.
