J-10, not as bad as you think

[highsea]

Thats what I was saying,it was not me but high sea was saying that Mig-21 was match to F-22.

Ajay, do not quote me out of context. I was describing a specific scenario, ie., the MiG has modern IIR seeker SRAAM and HMCS. And I did not say it was a match- I said some people would consider it ALMOST matched up. Simply because with IIR seekers, if the SRAAM got the Raptor in it's area of regard, it would be a threat.

I was not referring to BVR encounters. The probability of the MiG 21 getting to WVR against the Raptor is very low, and the Raptor is armed with AIM-9x with IIR seeker, and the Raptor can cue the missile with his helmet sight.

 

[Attila]

This topic makes me think of a plane which I'm not sure is being created or has already been developed under a veil of secrecy: the MIG 1.42 and 1.44.

If China has developed a fighter such as the J-10 described above, then one would wonder why the Russians would even consider keeping these planes on their list of possible sale items to allies. Would it not be cheaper to simply buy a few from Russia and make everyone happy?

Finally, as we all should know by now, the best planes are the planes that will never be acknowledged until they are proven in combat. Doesn't matter if they are American, Russian, Chinese, French, British, German, whatever...they'll only be announced after they're either developed or have been successful in a global theatre.

On a personal note though, I've always liked the lines of the F-15 and its newer cousin the F-22. The very fact that they can engineer planes like these makes me wonder how far they can actually push that envelope.

Aurora anyone?

 

[highsea]

The reason that I have faith in the J-10 is exactly because it has so much US engineering in it. Had the US allowed the program to come to fruition under Israeli auspices, China wouldn't even be close today. It was Israel selling the LAVI to China (which I haven't forgiven them for) that makes this discussion possible.

Again, it all boils down to the weapons and avionics. If the J-10 doesn't have it in the cockpit and on the pylons, it doesn't matter how neat the platform is.

 

[aaaditya]

r73dm2 also has helmet cueing system.this missile is in service with the indian airforce.(www.bharat-rakshak.com)

 

[Pathfinder-X]

The reason that I have faith in the J-10 is exactly because it has so much US engineering in it. Had the US allowed the program to come to fruition under Israeli auspices, China wouldn't even be close today. It was Israel selling the LAVI to China (which I haven't forgiven them for) that makes this discussion possible.

Again, it all boils down to the weapons and avionics. If the J-10 doesn't have it in the cockpit and on the pylons, it doesn't matter how neat the platform is.

The Israelis backed out of the deal in the early 1990's and the Russians were helping the Chinese develop the J-10. Based on that, I think most U.S contents found on J-10 comes from the Pakistani F-16A/B that Chinese obtained in late or mid 1990's. Don't forget the fact the J-10 project went through several stages of redesigning.

According to Sinodefence and centurychina, the J-10 is equipped with the Type 1743/K JL3 pulse doppler radar, which is based on American AN/APG-66/68 further reinforces my view that the J-10 has more in common with the F-16 from Pakistan. Well since the Lavi is based on F-16 so I guess we're back to where you started.

 

[highsea]

The question of when Israel actually pulled out of the J-10 is up for debate. Officially they backed away around 1990, but they maintained offices in China for several years afterwards, probably still today. In any case, Israel delivered a complete design. There were already 2 flying prototypes, and 4 more in construction when the US pulled the plug.

The J-10 project did go through a few redesigns, but we can ignore anything pre-Lavi as irrelevant. The only design changes relevant to the J-10 today are the post-Lavi changes. The J-10 is not an evolution of a previous design with Lavi influence- it is the end product of the Lavi design with Russian and Chinese influence.

I would guess that the Russian help was mostly re-engineering the aft fuselage and modifying the airframe to accept the AL-31 engine, and possibly some cooperation from Phazotron on the radar. They may have helped some with manufacturing details on the composites in the wings, etc, stuff that was too high tech for China's manufacturing capabilities at the time. There's really not as much F-16 in the Lavi as it appears. The forward fuselage and intake are similar, but the airframe and wing are all Lavi.

So 90% of the J-10 is still Lavi, and 90% of that development was US dollars. 40% of the components were being made in the US when the program got the ax. All in all, it was a disaster from the US perspective. 2.4 billion dollars down the drain, and much advanced technology given away.

 

[SABRE]

highsea things happen u knw...no point crying spiled milk now...remember that the British were the 1st to research the Super Sonic Jets, but they couldnt get the engine config. right so they contacted USA. USA agreeed to help out, this gave US 1st hand knowledge of Super Sonic jet Engines & USA became the 1st country to fly super sonice AC. This did piss off the British but whose complaining.

 

[Pendekar]

as far as i remember, it is an american pilot who first break the sound barrier. but if i'm not mistaken, it is the Canadian who was the first to developed a true, fly by wire supersonic fighter (Avro Arrow) though never go far from six prototypes before it was scrapped. it is also the first manned aircraft to reach the edge of space.

 

[SABRE]

The british were 1st to design Super Sonic AC but it never flew cause of British were unable to configure the engine thats y they shared the engine with USA. USA did not only help British but they secretly transfered the tech to their R&D & made the first Super Spnic AC before the British.

 

[highsea]

Okay guys, let's stay on topic...J-10.

 

[Attila]

Tough to stay on topic when there is no official information on the fighter..lol

Attila

 

[SABRE]

I doubt that the official Information would differ in any ways from the privately publsihed information on the net.

Official info might be released later this year as China would bring out the first Export version of J-10. Offcourse with export versions u'll need the official information. Export version is due at the end of 2005 & beginning of 2006.

So far China has tested J-10 against Su-27 with Chinese pilots on both the ACs. So we cant realy say if J-10 truely defeated the Su-27. The other pilot might have played softly. China should test the AirCraft with Russian pilots, if not than with Pakistani pilots. May be even test it against JF-17. Or even better test it against Israeli F-16s. This would even give Israel some info on how the Levi would have performed if they had persued it to be manufactured & inducted into the Israeli AirForece.

 

[adsH]

I doubt that the official Information would differ in any ways from the privately publsihed information on the net.

Official info might be released later this year as China would bring out the first Export version of J-10. Offcourse with export versions u'll need the official information. Export version is due at the end of 2005 & beginning of 2006.

So far China has tested J-10 against Su-27 with Chinese pilots on both the ACs. So we cant realy say if J-10 truely defeated the Su-27. The other pilot might have played softly. China should test the AirCraft with Russian pilots, if not than with Pakistani pilots. May be even test it against JF-17. Or even better test it against Israeli F-16s. This would even give Israel some info on how the Levi would have performed if they had persued it to be manufactured & inducted into the Israeli AirForece.

This is all just bunch of rumors but its not far from reality, I guess. J-10 have been flying in and around Karachi, as far as i can recall one person stating that. it was here i think.

 

[SABRE]

J-10 never flew Karachi....If it did I would have known or most probably I would have. I live in Karachi & one of the AirForce Base (Korangi) is nere my university. J-10 cant land at Faisal as it only houses Mirage 3 & 5 (mostly 5), Super Mushaq & couple of K-8. The largest base is always busy with F-7s taking off & landing, Oqaab's college is there, if J-10 was there he would have told us.
Even if J-10 was in Pakistan it would have been at PAC Kamra or at Sargodah base or 1 out 10 chances it would have been at Peshawar. There is no chance of J-10 flying in the skies of Karachi. If it flew some where else in Pakistan, it would have been made known even by the media. Keeping J-10 in Pakistan is not like its a crime, it would have been made public just like JF-17 (actualy early version that stats Super-7 on the tail, is in Pakistan). It went super sonic over Rawalpindi causing a sonic boom with a panic in the city & PAF publicly apologized & stated that the Super-7 was being tested for the speed.

Believe me J-10 is not in Pakistan but it would be probably even before export versions & official announcements are released.

May be JF-17 flew from PAC Kamra to Karachi & it was reported as J-10. But thats unlikely too.

If u r refering to J-10 being tested against PAF F-16s, than who ever told u this has lied. All F-16s r at Sargodah. 2ndly Pakistan wnt test J-10 against this F-16s this soon. Why???

1. Dady is thinking of buying us new F-16s

2. Dady will get angry if we play with cousin China's toy along with ours.

3. Cousin China's toy at the moment is better in targeting & range so no point testing F-16 A/B against them as J-10 would win any ways. But if we get Block 50/52+ than its going to be fun game. May be we could arrange a small war game.

 

[rafale_2k5]

rest assure the day j10 comes in paf colours , these western airforces shall be qued up 4 testing / evaluating this aircraft against their own n the flood gates of exercises would open up 4 paf, same anology as in indian case .....

 

[dalden]

Cousin China's toy at the moment is better in targeting & range so no point testing F-16 A/B against them as J-10 would win any ways. But if we get Block 50/52+ than its going to be fun game. May be we could arrange a small war game.

A small war game with China and Pakistan!!! could there be such a thing?? the reaction from the other major regional player would be most interesting.

 

[P.A.F]

actually now that a war game has been mentioned. well china and pakistan haven't had one in ages. sould have one soon. hopefully.

 

[rafale_2k5]

Theres another disturbin rumour but no official response of course regarding tailoring down of JF-17 order to 75 instead of original 150, inlight of bush administration's willingness to provide f-16s, may be the rumour may turn out to be right !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! some worthy member may put me wise on this if somebody has a better picture of the oer all issue !!!!!!

 

[Salman78]

Can J-10 carry medium range AAM's like Mirage 2005, F-15/14/18 Su-27 etc ? or are they for air to ground ordinance.
I would like to see J-10 carrying its under fuselage missiles.

Anyone has pics of it ?

 

[SABRE]

Can J-10 carry medium range AAM's like Mirage 2005, F-15/14/18 Su-27 etc ? or are they for air to ground ordinance.
I would like to see J-10 carrying its under fuselage missiles.

Anyone has pics of it ?

J-10 will carry SD-10 BVRAAMs (Beyound visiual range air to air missile) these are medium range missiles & according to its chinese developers the initial versions' capability lies with AIM-120B AMRAAM.

SD-10 will also be mounted on FC-1/JF-17s.