Isreali Tech transfers

[rrrtx]

You have to give them credit for coming up with upgrade products that are more attractive than those proposed by the original producer. They'll upgrade your MiG, F-5, F-4, or Mirage as well or better than the manufacturer.

 

[Big-E]

You have to give them credit for coming up with upgrade products that are more attractive than those proposed by the original producer. They'll upgrade your MiG, F-5, F-4, or Mirage as well or better than the manufacturer.

Yep, Israeli avionics are a step ahead of the rest.

 

[merocaine]

Got any links to support your stories? Israel is the Biggest recipient of US AID. With Loans ,Grants and Aid....the total comes out closer to the $7 to $10 Billion range annually.And please stick to the topic, No need for moronic self comparisons as posted by some clown in an earlier thread.

The second biggest recipient of US AID is Egypt.

The Aid to Columbia is mostly assistance in the fight against Drugs. We recently gave them a few more Black Hawks to support the war on drug lords

according to your sources for the year ending 2006 they recived 2 billion in military aid, which is what I said.
Way to go dude.....and you had the gall to call me a moron:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

It's incredible, isn't it? He is such a twit that even the articles he links to contradict his own argument!

 

[gf0012-aust]

This thread is on life support.
​

I don't want to see a continuation of people getting snippy with each other.

If there are issues with individuals then sort it out via a PM

 

[rrrtx]

I am as well. I had heard of a certain Israeli company that has developed upgrades for the Mig-29 to SMT standard. They are catering to our adversaries... hmmm

I'm trying to remember - didn't the Israelis also furnish the L7 105mm tank gun to China to upgrade it's T-55/59's?

I don't think China was making a licensed copy of the original British gun.

 

[SATAN]

according to your sources for the year ending 2006 they recived 2 billion in military aid, which is what I said.
Way to go dude.....and you had the gall to call me a moron:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

U.S. Aid to Israel: What U.S. Taxpayer Should Know
by Tom Malthaner

This morning as I was walking down Shuhada Street in Hebron, I saw graffiti marking the newly painted storefronts and awnings. Although three months past schedule and 100 percent over budget, the renovation of Shuhada Street was finally completed this week. The project manager said the reason for the delay and cost overruns was the sabotage of the project by the Israeli settlers of the Beit Hadassah settlement complex in Hebron. They broke the street lights, stoned project workers, shot out the windows of bulldozers and other heavy equipment with pellet guns, broke paving stones before they were laid and now have defaced again the homes and shops of Palestinians with graffiti. The settlers did not want Shuhada St. opened to Palestinian traffic as was agreed to under Oslo 2. This renovation project is paid for by USAID funds and it makes me angry that my tax dollars have paid for improvements that have been destroyed by the settlers.

Most Americans are not aware how much of their tax revenue our government sends to Israel. For the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, the U.S. has given Israel $6.72 billion: $6.194 billion falls under Israel's foreign aid allotment and $526 million comes from agencies such as the Department of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency and the Pentagon. The $6.72 billion figure does not include loan guarantees and annual compound interest totalling $3.122 billion the U.S. pays on money borrowed to give to Israel. It does not include the cost to U.S. taxpayers of IRS tax exemptions that donors can claim when they donate money to Israeli charities. (Donors claim approximately $1 billion in Federal tax deductions annually. This ultimately costs other U.S. tax payers $280 million to $390 million.)

When grant, loans, interest and tax deductions are added together for the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, our special relationship with Israel cost U.S. taxpayers over $10 billion.

Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.

I am angry when I see Israeli settlers from Hebron destroy improvements made to Shuhada Street with my tax money. Also, it angers me that my government is giving over $10 billion to a country that is more prosperous than most of the other countries in the world and uses much of its money for strengthening its military and the oppression of the Palestinian people.

Mod edit: Get back on topic guys or the thread will be closed. We (the moderators) are not happy with what we perceive as flame baiting and thread hijacking that is occuring lately. Stick to the topics of the threads, play by the rules or people will be taking a break from posting here. AD.

 

[SATAN]

I am curious about the guidelines used by Israel when exporting defense technology. I see few restrictions with tech sometimes sold to opposing sides or even predominantly Islamic countries.

For example - Lavi tech to China used to develop the J-10 while simultaneously selling anti-ship and if memory serves air-to-air missles to Taiwan.

There is large scale cooperation with Turkey including fighter upgrades, tank upgrades etc.

Israel also worked with apartheid era South Africa in a variety of areas - Kfir tech to upgrade SA Mirages, anti-ship missiles, and the Galil derived R4 come to mind.

I think Russia, China, and France have rightly become more notorious for exporting arms indiscriminately in recent years but I was curious about Israel especially given the previously discussed implication of it's ties to the US.

This should answer your question rrtx. I didnt want to post the entire article so here is the link

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2400866&C=mideast

enjoy

 

[radiosilence]

U.S. Aid to Israel Subsidizes a Potent Weapons Exporter
By Jim Krane
Associated Press
June 19, 2002


Israeli soldiers guard an Israeli Merkava tank at the Eurosatory military equipment show held in Villepinte, north of Paris, June 17. Israel showed the world’s military shoppers fruits of its hich-tech arm industry.

At an arms trade fair in Paris this week, Israel showed the world’s military shoppers fruits of its high-tech arms industry, including its Merkava tank, unmanned spy planes and the planet’s most sophisticated missile defense system.

With its tourist industry all but shuttered by a 21-month Palestinian uprising and high-tech in a slump, the Jewish state depends deeply on the foreign currency earnings of its weapons industry, now the world’s 10th largest.

Deftly marketed missiles, radar and other products from Israeli companies now compete with those of top-tier arms producers including the United States, reaping about $2 billion of a $27 billion yearly worldwide market, said Kuti Mor, deputy director general of Israel’s Ministry of Defense.

In France, Turkey, The Netherlands and Finland, Israeli companies have edged such U.S. firms as Raytheon, Northrop Grumman and General Atomics out of arms deals worth hundreds of millions of dollars in recent years.

The irony, experts say, is that tens of billions of U.S. tax dollars and transfers of American military technology helped create and nurture Israel’s industry, in effect subsidizing a foreign competitor.

No other country receives as much U.S. aid or freedom to plow it into its own export industries as Israel, say experts in academia, industry and the U.S. government.

“It’s allowed them to advance faster than Lockheed or Boeing or Hughes would have liked,” said David Lewis, a doctoral candidate at Rutgers University who has researched Israel’s defense industry for a forthcoming book.

While the United States gets certain benefits from its 50-year partnership with Israel — political leverage, a proving ground for new weapons and intelligence cooperation among them — critics point to a serious downside.

“It’s a new concept for most people.” said Joel Johnson, a vice president at the Aerospace Industries Association of America, which represents many of the largest U.S. arms producers. “We give them money to build stuff for themselves and the U.S. taxpayer gets nothing in return.”

The rationale, said Richard Fisher, a defense analyst with the Jamestown Foundation, is that Washington is willing to sacrifice some defense industry competitiveness in order to give Israel incentive to make peace.

Supporters of Israel tend to view the transfers of U.S. technology and funds as good for both countries’ economies, akin to post-World War II assistance for Europe and Japan.

“It’s true that Israel sometimes competes with the U.S., but so do all those countries,” said Mark Regev, a spokesman at the Israeli Embassy in Washington D.C. “Is it that different than American aid to Japan, or the Marshall Plan in western Europe?”

Beyond competing with U.S. armaments, Israeli weapons also flow to countries off-limits to American companies. Its weapons buttress the arsenals of nations such as China that the United States considers strategic competitors, alarming U.S. military planners.

Last year, U.S. surveillance planes flying along China’s coast were threatened by Chinese fighter jets armed with Israeli missiles.

During the series of airborne confrontations, a Chinese jet crashed after colliding with a U.S. spy plane, killing the Chinese pilot and disabling the U.S. plane. The incident sparked a bitter diplomatic row as China detained the American crew for 11 days.

Had Chinese fighter pilots been given the order to fire, they could have brought down the U.S. planes with Israeli Python III missiles.

U.S. technology given to the Israelis in the form of the Sidewinder missile was used in the development of the Python, said Larry Wortzel, former U.S. Army attache in Beijing and now a military analyst at the Heritage Foundation.

U.S. defense chiefs say Israel sold China the missiles without informing the United States.

“Generally speaking, we’re not in favor of such capable weapons systems being proliferated to a variety of nations around the world,” Rear Adm. Craig Quigley said in a Pentagon briefing last year. “That’s a good missile, and its capabilities are considerable.”

In 2000, Israel bowed to U.S. pressure and canceled the sale to China of its AWACS-style airborne early warning radar planes. The director general of Israel’s finance ministry, Ohad Marani, said Israel typically discusses arms sales with the Americans.

“We don’t sell systems that upset the Pentagon,” Marani said.

Israel’s arms industry nevertheless continues to put great emphasis on the Chinese market, hawking its spy planes and radar systems at recent trade shows in Beijing and Singapore.

China may unveil as early as this year its new J-10 jet fighter, which experts say is modeled on Israel’s Lavi. The Lavi, now discontinued, was based on the U.S. F-16 and built with $1.3 billion in aid from Washington.

“There’s no doubt in my mind that the F-16 is the Lavi and the Lavi is, in substance, the J-10,” said Wortzel.

In fact, Israel’s arms industry now leads America’s in areas such as the instruments used for fighter aircraft targeting, Fisher said. “We’re now reaching a point that the U.S. military looks to Israel as a source of advanced technology.”

Even critics of U.S. largesse are quick to note that Israel’s weapons industry also owes its success to the country’s world-class science education and its urgent security needs. Luring emigres from the former Soviet weapons industry has also helped.

The U.S. role, however, is formidable.

Since 1976, Israel has received more U.S. assistance than any other country, with the largest aid flows beginning after Israel and Egypt made peace in 1979.

Washington currently gives Israel about $3 billion per year, two-thirds of it in military grants, the Congressional Research Service says. As U.S. civilian aid is phased out at Israel’s request, military grants are expected to reach $2.4 billion by 2007.

Alone among U.S. aid recipients, Israel is allowed to use about a quarter of its military aid to develop its own arms production rather than for flat-out purchases of U.S. arms, according to the Congressional Research Service.

Other aid recipients wishing the same must seek State Department approval, a difficult process, said a department spokeswoman who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Though Israel is the wealthiest country to receive U.S. aid — with a per capita income higher than Greece or Spain — the largesse triggers little opposition in Congress or among the U.S. electorate. Elsewhere, it can provoke deep resentment. To many of the world’s Muslims, it places the U.S. taxpayer on the Israeli side of its conflicts with Arabs.

U.S. foreign policy experts such as Richard Perle, a senior Pentagon official in the Reagan administration, say there’s reason behind Washington’s generosity.

The aid is an “inducement to get Israeli concessions in the Middle East,” said Perle, though he called it “unfortunate that the Israelis have been so willing to sell to the Chinese.”

Asked about the situation, U.S officials who monitor foreign arms transfers called it too politically charged to discuss publicly.

“There’s not a whole lot we can comment on,” said Jay Greer, spokesman for the State Department’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs. “It’s a sensitive matter.”

In private conversations, however, U.S. officials said there is no doubt Israel is afforded special latitude to develop and export equipment made with U.S. help.

And indeed, American and Israeli companies aren’t just competitors. Israeli firms often team with U.S. counterparts, trading technology for lobbying access to the U.S. military, said Barbara Opall-Rome, Tel Aviv-based reporter for Defense News.

The Pentagon has also granted Israel permission to demand so-called “offsets,” or contract givebacks, on American hardware bought with U.S. aid.

Offset agreements require U.S. arms companies to spend or invest a portion of the contract’s value inside the purchasing country. Other countries, including Egypt, South Korea, Turkey and Greece also get them.

The agreements often transfer part of a production line — and U.S. jobs — to a foreign country.

For instance, in 1999, Lockheed Martin awarded Israel $900 million in offsets on a single $2.5 billion sale of F-16s, even though Israel used U.S. military grants to pay for the planes.

It was just one example, analysts say, of how the combination of U.S. aid, technology and political favors have given Israel an unprecedented leg up on the competition.

“The Israelis wouldn’t be where they are today if they didn’t have the Americans behind them,” said Bjorn Hagelin, an arms sales researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

An AP article from 2002, examines how US Aid has help make Israel into a top weapons exporter.

AP

 

[rrrtx]

This does cover the Lavi example which I consider to be the most egregious.

I'm unsure about the Python missile example though. Everybody makes a Sidewinder copy nowadays and have for some time really. That's not stealing tech. It would be like getting mad at someone for making a copy of the jeep or the AK-47. There are enough copies on the market that you give up the idea of maintaining intellectual property rights on them.

 

[Big-E]

An AP article from 2002, examines how US Aid has help make Israel into a top weapons exporter.

AP

Great article... heavily biased but still good info. thanx

 

[swerve]

Great article... heavily biased but still good info. thanx

Some of the examples I suspect are inaccurate, e.g. the Lavi. Certainly incorporated a lot of US technology, but it was nothing like a straight F-16 copy. But I didn't know there were offsets given for weapons purchases bought with US aid money. That, frankly, is bizarre: you give someone money to buy your weapons with, then give them financial incentives to buy your weapons. Uhh - why?

US aid is about $2.6 bn this year, of which ca 20% may be spent within Israel. Peak was ca $5 billion. There's also aid from Germany, in the form of a big chunk of the price of Israels new submarines being paid for by the German government.

 

[radiosilence]

Great article... heavily biased but still good info. thanx

Heavily biased in your opinion.....

 

[Big-E]

Heavily biased in your opinion.....

As swerve pointed out the authors examples were exagerated and figures skewed to inaccurate amounts.

 

[radiosilence]

As swerve pointed out the authors examples were exagerated and figures skewed to inaccurate amounts.

I miss the part where swerve used the words exagerated and figures were skewed..

Some of the examples I suspect are Inaccurate...

Great article... heavily biased but still good info. thanx

There is difference between being Inaccurate and being Biased.

Feel free to challenge the article...

 

[Big-E]

I miss the part where swerve used the words exagerated and figures were skewed..

I guess you didn't read his post.

He said Lavi was exagerrated in the article as being an F-16 copy.

He also pointed out that the offsets where "bizarre" aka BS

And finally he pointed out that only about 20% of 2.6 billion "can be spent inside Israel"... meaning the article's figures are skewed.

How you can miss this is beyond me...

 

[radiosilence]

I guess you didn't read his post.

He said Lavi was exagerrated in the article as being an F-16 copy.

He also pointed out that the offsets where "bizarre" aka BS

And finally he pointed out that only about 20% of 2.6 billion "can be spent inside Israel"... meaning the article's figures are skewed.

How you can miss this is beyond me...

I read his post quite a few times but didn't see him using the word exagerated. Can you post a quote of him using the word EXAGERATED?

Maybe swerve can clarify the rest of your claims. If you have your own figures fill us in.

 

[kams]

Here you can find CRS report.

Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance

In addition to the foreign assistance, the United States has provided Israel with $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow antimissile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled),
$200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative), $130 million to develop the high energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing), and other military projects. In FY2000 the United States provided Israel an additional
$1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in FY2002 the United States provided an additional $200 million in anti-terror assistance.

For additional figures look in page 15, 16

 

[Big-E]

I read his post quite a few times but didn't see him using the word exagerated. Can you post a quote of him using the word EXAGERATED?

Article:
“There’s no doubt in my mind that the F-16 is the Lavi and the Lavi is, in substance, the J-10,” said Wortzel.

Swerve:
"the Lavi. Certainly incorporated a lot of US technology, but it was nothing like a straight F-16 copy."

If you can't see Swerve seeing the article's claim as an exaggeration just because you don't see the word "exaggeration" you have a comprehension problem... Oh wait, didn't you say that of me?

Proves my point, you have a comprehension problem.

 

[radiosilence]

Article:
“There’s no doubt in my mind that the F-16 is the Lavi and the Lavi is, in substance, the J-10,” said Wortzel.

Swerve:
"the Lavi. Certainly incorporated a lot of US technology, but it was nothing like a straight F-16 copy."

If you can't see Swerve seeing the article's claim as an exaggeration just because you don't see the word "exaggeration" you have a comprehension problem... Oh wait, didn't you say that of me?

I disagree with your interpretation of someone else's post. You are attributing words like exaggeration, figures skewed etc which does not exist in the person's post. If the person sees fit to clarify his remarks so be it. Do you have anything substantive to add instead to misquoting what others have said?

Great article... heavily biased but still good info

Can it be both, a great article and heavly biased?