Iraqi Air Force and Air Defense

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anan

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  • #41
You said it SkolZkiy. $3.6 million per Mi-17 is awfully cheap.

Feanor, you might check out the thread here:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/iraqi_ground_forces.php (comment section)
http://www.longwarjournal.org/cgi-bin/mt-comments.r966.cgi?entry_id=18874

Iraq is now buying 18 F16s in 2012 instead of 36 in 2011 to save money. Much of Iraq's procurement is being delayed or canceled, pending higher oil prices. Because of this, I don't know what the IqAF end state will be.

To summarize from a friend's e-mail on Iraq's Mi-17:
- The April MNSTC-I "Advisor" is claiming they have trained five squadrons of Mi17 crews.
- Two exist: 4th Transport and 15th SpecOps.
- This order provides helos for a third, the second SpecOps Sq.
- No idea when the other 48 Mi17s will be bought or whether they will be SpecOps or transport configured.
- Iraq has 900 pilots and engineers for Mi17s.
- It used to be the backbone of the IqAF.

There is a lot of other info on the IqAF in the top link. The French are trying hard to sell the Iraqis aircraft. They seem to have impressed the Iraqi Defense Minister.
 
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Almaleki

New Member
Feanor said:
I notice motorized and infantry divisions. But there seems to be very little difference. Could you explain the rationale behind it to me by any chance?



Hardly. The best deterrence against any of the above is heavy American political support. 36 F-16's are a chew toy for the Saudis, or Turks. The UAE, Jordan, and Syria don't have the means to start a war of aggression. Only Iran might be a competitor on roughly the same level. And even then, only because most of what they fly is either outdated or obsolete.
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Hey it is Block 50/52 and equals 96 and the first Squadron will fly in 2012

well
252 minus 96 : 156 Jet and lets say other 96 as there is the A-50 Buy ,, i think it will be french Jet ,, what do you think now Feanor ???

Anand i am still laughing on what you said that could a T/A-50 win against MIG-31 !!!! or Mig-29 !!!! that rumors say Syria will have
 
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Almaleki

New Member
OPSSG said:
Please note that you do not speak for the rest of the world and there are many other factors to consider. I seriously doubt that you are an American, though you clearly have an anglo-education (that has failed you, in terms of an awareness of other perspectives :eek: ).

The US military is providing 'free' assistance and training. Iraqis like Almaleki should not look a gift horse in the mouth. Singapore had to pay for our advice (which I must say is/was worth ever cent). Further, Almaleki doesn't seem appreciative or willing to learn (as Almaleki noted in post #25, Iraqis can just read manuals themselves in relation to operating planes, which is a silly statement :rolleyes: ).
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yeah really in the Time of Saddam he stolen the Money needed for it kkkkk
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Almaleki said:
Hey it is Block 50/52 and equals 96 and the first Squadron will fly in 2012

well
252 minus 96 : 156 Jet and lets say other 96 as there is the A-50 Buy ,, i think it will be french Jet ,, what do you think now Feanor ???
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I really can't understand what you're saying. Do you mean that Iraq will get 156 F-16s?

Anand i am still laughing on what you said that could a T/A-50 win against MIG-31 !!!! or Mig-29 !!!! that rumors say Syria will have
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MiG-31 has not been exported to Syria. The T/A-50 could compete with older MiG-29s if it's given decent radar, avionics, and weapons. Especially given shoddy maintenance, lack of support assets and poor pilot training.
 
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Almaleki

New Member
Feanor said:
I really can't understand what you're saying. Do you mean that Iraq will get 156 F-16s?



MiG-31 has not been exported to Syria. The T/A-50 could compete with older MiG-29s if it's given decent radar, avionics, and weapons. Especially given shoddy maintenance, lack of support assets and poor pilot training.
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first point :

no 96 F-16 C/D
96 A/T-50
96 ??
maybe a French Jet as in the same article in one of the newspapers the Iraqi Airforce commander said that he is looking for 96 F-16 Block 50/52 just like what the [ Admin. Post Reported by Senior Member veiled political reference deleted. This is your last warning. Stay on the straight and narrow or you are gone] and Singapore and Pakistan are having and some Korean Light Jets and some Advanced Mirages ... No source on the Mirages other than that but it is reasonable we bought From US and Korea and the only good relations other Country is France as they will Give Weapons for Oil as Sarkozy Said ...


second point :

No there was Rumors of Syria and Iran Having Mig-31E and some Advanced Mig-29 Maybe C cant remember
 
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Feanor

Feanor

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Internet rumors don't mean much. As of right now there is no real evidence of either Syria or Iran having any Mig-31, or any MiG-29 more advanced then the MiG-29S.
 
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cameron200

New Member
the US may sell the f16s to iraq but i believe it will be a one time sell an it will not sell advance weapons including missiles to iraq for two reasons first iraq can not afford it even the purchase of the f16 have droped from 36 to 18 and the secound reason is because of Israel, the US and Israel still distrust the Iraqi government and we will never sell them these weapons duo to the fact we need to protect israel even though Iraq is no threat. so i belive as for the iraqi air force it may still be russian weaponery and this may be true for most iraqi weapons. also saudis still fear iraqi army so tey may block the sell.
 
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anan

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  • #48
The latest detailed analysis of the IZAF (Iraqi Air Force) from the Montrose Toast (author use to maintain the Iraqi Security Forces Order of Battle at LWJ):
Montrose Toast - Blog

The Iraqis are considering used US F16s.
 
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anan

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  • #50
What is the life cycle cost of an F16 Block 60 Aircraft?
-Assume life of 20 years
-Assume 210 hours of flight time per year at operational cost of $5,000 per hour or $1.1 million a year or $22 million over 20 years
-Assume cost of aircraft + engines + systems + initial weapons complement over 20 years = $100 million or $5 million a year
-Assume an additional $100 million in munitions are purchased over the life of the aircraft = $5 million per year
-Assume one refit upgrade that costs $40 million or $2 million per year
-Assume additional maintenance operations costs = $38 million or $1.9 million a year

Is the 20 year cost of an F 16 Block 60 Aircraft = $300 million or $15 million per year?

If Iraq buys 36 F16 block 60s, will the life cycle cost = $10.8 billion or $540 million per year?

Iraq is considering acquiring used F 16s from the US arsenal. What is the best way to calculate the life cycle cost of these aircraft?

Would the following complement of fighters be sufficient for Iraq?:
- 1 squadron or 18 F16 Block 60 ($5.4 billion)
- 1 squadron or 18 used F16s from the US arsenal ($3.6 billion)
- 4 squadron or 72 new F/A 50s from South Korea ($10.8 billion)
- 2 squadron or 36 other multirole 4.5 Gen fighters from another country to diversify Iraq's air fleet {This might be a political necessity for Iraq; might be the Rafael fighter} ($14.2 billion)

8 fighter/attack squadrons or 144 fighters? ($34 billion)

The fighter fleet would cost $1.7 billion per year.

Then if we assume Iraq would like to purchase another 4 squadrons of light attack turboprop aircraft at a cost of $100 million lifecycle per aircraft or $5 million per year, this would be another 72*$100 = $7.2 billion or $360 million per year.

The total then rises to $41.2 billion or $2.1 billion per year for 216 aircraft in 12 squadrons.

Are these cost estimates in the right ball park?

In addition to this, Iraq will also buy transportation and ISR fixed wing, plus helos (transportation + ISR + light attack.)
 
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anan

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  • #51
I use to think that the KF-X aircraft was a possible option for the IqAF (Iraqi Air Force), since South Korea and Iraq are BFF. However, might the KF-X be canceled?

S. Korea Reconsidering Stealth Fighter Plans

Could the Koreans jointly develop and aircraft with the Japanese? They both have worked on manufacturing 4.5 gen fighters that are partly modeled after the F16. Both countries also want Gen 5 aircraft. If they can't get the F-22, might they both obtain economies of scale by developing their own fighter?

Another option would be (for S Korea and Japan) to jointly develop this aircraft with India. All three want Gen 5 aircraft and have tried to purchase the F22. Collectively, they would have a large R&D budget, even by US standards. The total number of Gen 5 aircraft the three of them would purchase is likely to be in the range of 500. $20 billion R&D divided over 500 aircraft would be only $40 million per plane. If the KF-X is dead, this is something the three of them should think about.

Right now India and Russia are jointly developing a Gen 5 fighter; but this fighter is likely to be inferior to a joint Japan/India/South Korea fighter.

As an American, I think the best option would be for the US to allow a dumbed down export version of the F22. But you know the Congress. :-(
 
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anan

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  • #52
OPSSG

OPSSG

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anan said:
Al Maleki has started two forums recently that discuss the Iraqi Air Force:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/us-lend-lease-f-16s-weapons-iraq-9519/
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/m...force-discussions-iraqi-mig-return-home-9490/

There is also a bunch of new articles discussing the possibility of the US donating 134 used F16s and 112 used F15s to the Iraqi Air Force:
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I find Al Maleki's habit of starting more threads is a little counter productive when he can just as well post the same info in this thread. And I note that no one has responded to his new thread. I think it would be much more productive if all the disparate Iraqi air force info was posted into 1 single thread, so that we don't have to repeat the same discussion again and again or keep referring to other threads.

I've previously posted at length on the basics the Iraqi air force needs to focus on in a thread called "Iraq Buys F-16s?" and here in this thread. Further, I have given you a detailed reading list on the F-16 as a multi-role fighter in the "Afghan National Army Air Corps thread" and previously provided a link on the topic of F-16 operating and support costs (June 2006 NPS MBA thesis/report). For your viewing pleasure, please take a look at this pix thread post #15 (with details of the 425th Fighter Squadron training with block 52 F-16C/Ds in the US) and post #16 (for an animated illustration of Strike Ops). I do not intend to further repeat myself.

There are other US allies and friends who are keen to lease ex-USAF planes too (Singapore's just agreed to pay US$75m to lease ex-USAF F-16s). I would think that the Philippines Air Force would also be keen to have an air combat arm again, when their budget allows for it. And they are just as deserving of a hand-out.

Iraq should get their act together and just be sensible - focus on the basics - reduce complexity and stop trying to compare Iraqi's aircraft arsenal with other GCC states (they have tons of money and Iraqi does not, as the country is deep in debt). IIRC Iraq owes Saudi Arabia US$17 billion and Russia US$13 billion, just to name a 2. Iraq as a country has such a poor, poor, poor credit rating. Keep it focused on more realistic and affordable options. There is no need to talk about F-15s for Iraq at the moment and I think not many sensible people want to talk about Iraqi 'pie-in-the-sky' dreams.
 
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dragonfire

New Member
Too Costly ??

Light and Medium Utility Helicopters for Iraq


WASHINGTON: The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Nov. 18 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Iraq of 15 helicopters with associated parts, equipment, training and logistical support for a complete package worth approximately $1.2 billion.

The Government of Iraq has requested a possible sale of up to 15 AgustaWestland AW109 Light Utility Observation helicopters, or alternatively, 15 Bell Model 429 Medical Evacuation and Aerial Observation helicopters, or 15 EADS North America UH-72A Lakota Light Utility helicopters; and,

Up to 12 AgustaWestland AW139 Medium Utility helicopters, or alternatively, 12 Bell Model 412 Medium Utility helicopters, or 12 Sikorsky UH-60M BLACK HAWK helicopters equipped with 24 T700-GE-701D engines.

Also included: spare and repair parts, publications and technical data, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, ground support, communications equipment, U.S. Government and contractor provided technical and logistics support services, tools and test equipment, and other related elements of logistics support.
The estimated cost is $1.2 billion.

Full Article - Light and Medium Utility Helicopters for Iraq | Air Force News at DefenceTalk

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Given that the stuff in Italics looks like a complete sale and support transaction it still looks too costly for 12-15 helos at 1.2 Billion USD, am sure non US sellers could provide competative bids for similar helos at much better cost
 
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anan

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  • #56
Its 15+12 = 27 helos and spares and training. Total = $44 million per helo package. Think life cycle cost per helo. Many of us who follow the ISF noticed the price tag:

The best public source data on the ISF is Montrose Toast - Blog
Many of most informed people in the world on the ISF read the comment section there.
 
A

anan

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  • #57
IqAF probably buying 24 T50 Golden Eagles

IqAF plans to buy 24 supersonic trainer aircraft. Either BAE Systems’ Hawk, KAI/Lockheed’s T-50, or Alenia’s M-346.

"the expected 24-plane Iraqi deal could be worth GBP 500 million initially (currently about $760 million), rising to GBP 1 billion over the life of the aircraft once servicing and maintenance contracts are included."

Iraq is likely to buy the T-50 Golden Eagle trainer and the competition is cover to show they had a competition. South Korea is likely to provide Iraq a large infrastructure offset.

T/A-50 Golden Eagles for Iraq?

In separate unrelated news, IqAF still hopes to buy 96 F16s and 96 other non US 4.5 gen fighters [to protect Iraq from the risk of the US cutting off Iraq's spares and maintenance.] So far, only 24 F16s have been ordered:
Montrose Toast - Blog
The non US fighters will probably be Dassault Rafale given Iraqi politics.
 
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cameron200

New Member
anan said:
IqAF plans to buy 24 supersonic trainer aircraft. Either BAE Systems’ Hawk, KAI/Lockheed’s T-50, or Alenia’s M-346.

"the expected 24-plane Iraqi deal could be worth GBP 500 million initially (currently about $760 million), rising to GBP 1 billion over the life of the aircraft once servicing and maintenance contracts are included."

Iraq is likely to buy the T-50 Golden Eagle trainer and the competition is cover to show they had a competition. South Korea is likely to provide Iraq a large infrastructure offset.

T/A-50 Golden Eagles for Iraq?

In separate unrelated news, IqAF still hopes to buy 96 F16s and 96 other non US 4.5 gen fighters [to protect Iraq from the risk of the US cutting off Iraq's spares and maintenance.] So far, only 24 F16s have been ordered:
Montrose Toast - Blog
The non US fighters will probably be Dassault Rafale given Iraqi politics.
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where are u getting ur info iraq has yet to order any f16 most likely never will with budget problems and lets face it the current political situation in iraq is not a good idea to sell wepons to a country wich within months may go into a civil war (very likely) and that it will turn into a another dictator lead country just like other arab/islamic nations in the region, i hope the us does not sell anything to iraq which by all accounts will soon be part of iran
 
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