Iran Defense Doctrine - Response To Attack?

Jim Goose

New Member
In light of recent events in the middle east concerning Iran's new president moving towards a more confrontational approach with Israel and Washington, and Washington and Israel doing the same, I've been wondering about the consequences of US military intervention in Iran.

I'll be discussing possible responses by Iran to large scale invasion and also a strategic aerial bombing / limited invasion.

Full Scale Land/Air Invasion

In terms of a possible direct attack on Iran, it's safe to assume that Iran will concentrate its response on a purely asymmetrical front.

This can be gathered from watching videos of field exercises and war games that Iran has been holding for the last couple of years in the deserts preparing for such an invasion. In these videos the emphasis seems to be on guerrilla warfare, teams of two on motorcycles with RPGs, hit in run from vehicles, mountain warfare etc...

Although Iran did use its conventional army in staging aerial bombings, tank formations, etc... it's doubtful how effective these would be in a direct attack from a much technologically superior invader.

Also, Iran is known for its support and training of all volunteer militias and reactionary forces in the form of the Pasardan and Basij, numbering in the hundreds of thousands. These groups, under the supervision of the Revolutionary Guard, can be assumed to have knowledge and training in guerrilla tactics, IED construction, small arms ambush, hit and run, suicide attacks.

Lets not forget that the most potent parts of the insurgency in Iraq right now is speculated to have potential links with Iran's Revolutionary Guard. The shaped charges we keep hearing about and infrared IED triggers that can't be jammed could very well have come from Iranian agents.

A full scale invasion seems to be a last resort for America, although there is no doubt it would succeed in destroying Iran's infrastructure and conventional military, it would do little to hurt the regime except perhaps popularize it even more.

Also, it is known that Iran maintains a global network of agents but their abilities are unknown to me. An invasion, on any level, could trigger a response from elements based abroad. These responses, if in the form of terrorism, would be disastrous.

Limited Aerial Incursion

This is the most likely of possible scenarios. Israel has already stated that it is prepared for an attack on Iran's nuclear reactor sites. But what is not clear is what response any aerial attack would result in, on the part of Iran.

It should be noted that the level of fervour and zeal currently present in Iran and its people could trigger a response much greater than anticipated, even if any attack is targeted only to military and nuclear targets.


Iran's responses could include targeting the strategic oil lanes of Harmuz and surrounding ports. However this would be higher than any level of activity in the tanker wars of the Iran-Iraq war, which brought about an upsurge in oil costs. A coordinated conventional attack on one of the world's primary sources of oil transport would then result in increased global influence. Possible support of Iran by China and Russia in such a scenerio can't be ruled out, although unlikely.

Additionally, It's been noted that Iran has been heavily mining its waters in that region since the war with Iraq. Silkworm anti-ship defences have also been installed on nearby islands as well as the possible presence of mini-subs, kilo class russian subs, and a variety of corvette and gunships.

The instability in Iraq could also spiral out of control if an attack was carried out now or in the near future. A limited aerial attack on iran could trigger a response from its all volunteer militia as mentioned earlier, the Basij and Pasardan. This would be devastating.

In a worse case scenario, the Mullahs in Iran may decide to directly target US forces based in near by Arab countries, officially signing their own death sentences.

Iran would no doubt carry the majority of deaths, but America too would suffer greatly if targeted following a limited scale invasion.

It is unlikely that Iran would not retaliate in light of such an attack, the extent to which this retaliation will take is unknown.

Hopefully none of these scenarios will play out and hopefully better judgement will be reached by both sides... but with both regimes at such extremes and with both thinking that their vision is the only vision, it's hard not to think about a conflict.

That being said, I'd like to read your views on what Iran's response would be.:xmas

-jim goose
 
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Patzek

New Member
well, yes, what you said its 100% true, but i'll add some.

If we'll do an air attack on iran ( IL ) its obvious that the iranians will strike back, of course they will, we just destructed all they're nuclear plans.
they're couple of scenraios.
first, Israel attack them, Iran attacks israel, and from me knowing my country, we will see it as the green light for war, " because we had to do it and they strike back for no reason ( wich is of course untrue, but its got some point ) "
so israel launchs dozens and dozens of missiles on iran ( of course without the possibility that its go nuclear, if it does, israel will obvious will do it in only few Jerichos ).
and they're we got a war, but i suppose it will be a hard one, and fast one.

The other scenario, is, after israel attack Iran, Iran launchs Sunburns on US Ships, and because of the fact the Sunburns is almost unstopable, alot, alot, of US soldiers will die, and the end of Iran has come, Bush will take care of it.
 

webmaster

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Patzek said:
because we had to do it and they strike back for no reason ( which is of course untrue, but its got some point ) "
:unknown Strike back after an attack for no reason? :smash
 

Jim Goose

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I'm not familar with sunburns, are they anti-ship torpedos or missiles and of US or Russian design?

I do agree that the "war" will be quick, but the asymetrical response will be much more than that in Iraq and far more costly. I think it's for this reason that Israel and the US have put off an attack. America's first priority will be sustained stability in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I believe this will take atleast another 5 years to accomplish in Iraq. Then perhaps an attack will be more plausible, but by then Iran maybe have the bomb.

I personally don't believe Iran would use a nuclear weapon except in self-defense and in desperate measures, but with hot heads like Ahmadinejad, Iran is not helping its own case. He is getting way too cocky.

Oh, and some good news :)

Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said on Friday that Iran has no plans to attack any foreign country, BBC reported. “We will not commit aggression towards any nations; we will not breach any nation's rights anywhere in the world," said Khamenei in a sermon broadcast live on state media to mark Eid al-Fitr, which ends the holy month of Ramadan.
 
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Patzek

New Member
Webmaster, I meant, that in israel, if we attack something, that from our point of view is threating on our country ecxistence, strike back will be seeing as they attacked us, and we will strike back, I know its kind of wired, but if they got nuclears that its obviously threat on us, and the possibility that other middle eastern country can destroy us... its an attack by it self.



Sunburns, are anti ship missiles, unstopable, ecxept for lasers anti missiles, like the THEL of RAFAEL, but i don't know how fast that can work, and if it will work above the water, and its compilcated.



Nuclear bomb = weapon for life, it doesn't matter if they'll use it in the next 5 years, or in the next 30, we're looking forward and not only at the present.

and about the news.
I'll say it if you don't know it already,
Israel wont wait till the iranians will have the bomb, we just wont, it doesn't matter what they're intentions, we just can't take the risk, 1 bomb will destroy us, in ALL terms, we wont be able to handle it, doesn't matter when, we just can't take that risk.
and you can belive me if I say, that if we attack something, be sure we will end it.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
I don't understand. Israel having nuclear weapon is not a threat to any country in the region while any other country getting nukes is a threat to Israel? I don't know how one gets to that conclusion. The very reason Iran wants nuclear technology is the fact (or assumption) that Israel has nuclear weapons and it sees Iran as a threat. If both have nuclear weapons then it is possible that niether will attack each other. If one has and the other doesn't there is always assumption of threat that the other side might get them...

If today we know that Iran has nuclear weapon for sure and it tests some, no body in their right mind would be talking about attacking Iran.
 

JSF

New Member
i suppose what he means is that one nuke will wipe out Israel because of its tiny land mass while Iran is huge in comparison and can probably withstand more than one nuke attack?:|
 

Jim Goose

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I don't know about that, as soon as the US warns Israel of an incoming nuke you can be sure that Israel will unload a large quantity of nukes on Iran ensuring nothing survives.

And I totally agree with you Webmaster, the fact that both sides had nuclear weapons during the cold war and the fact of total mutual destruction was EXACTLY why there was no direct major conflict between the two sides.
 

Patzek

New Member
yes i know what you mean, but don't try to post " smart " posts on situations that indeed in other countries and in other situation will be right, because the situation of the middle us is uniqe to the middle east.

I guess the world trust us more than he trust on Iran, and i KNOW that if we got nuclears for 40 years and we still got them, the world trusts us, that we wont use it, but as you can see, no one trust Iran.

Why they trust israel? maybe because we are under massives attack for 57 years?
Maybe because we take one of the majors part of the war in terror in the whole world, and done alot of things that we deserve to be trusted.

Shut down Iraq nuclears facillities in 1981
Rescued Antebe hostages wich was 3000km away
i can give you a big list of operations of actions israel took who was not for itself, but for other people, or to the world in general.

And iran?
Iran is the damn cause that people get blow up in here evrey time some damn terrorist blow up a bus or a resturant or whatever.
They give the money to the Hizbollah to fire missiles of israel
Iran is a country that here leader call for us to be " wiped of the map "
Iran is a country that support the Terrorist for dozens of years
Iran is filming movies of her army and airforce for " show up " exacly like the terrorist do in Gaza, to other countries to be fear of them.

Evreything here is just some examples. i can continues both list on and on.

and those are some of the reasones we are allowed to get nukes and they doesn't.
nukes is the sole reasone that israel is still a country.
and thats the way it is need to stay.



"""""""
i suppose what he means is that one nuke will wipe out Israel because of its tiny land mass while Iran is huge in comparison and can probably withstand more than one nuke attack?
"""""""

first of all, yes.
You can say it as much as you want, but iran is far far away from keeping her citizens like israel does.
If one nuke will land of some iranian air force base, what will happen?
ok, the base will blow up and alot of things arround it, and couple thouzands of people will die, but the country still active, nothing really happened to it.

Israel will be doomed.


"
I don't know about that, as soon as the US warns Israel of an incoming nuke you can be sure that Israel will unload a large quantity of nukes on Iran ensuring nothing survives.
"

thats half correct.
Israel doesn't act like iran will,.
first of all
all our forces will go red
all arrows batteris and anti ballistic missiles will be more active, and we will shot down those missiles, be sure about that.

be sure whole EU will join us and to the US and we will change iran for good, of course after we attacked them a bit, and hitted.
 

webmaster

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Staff member
I believe that every country has the right to acquire nuclear technology for military use and civilian use and for its protection unless it threatens another country with nuclear weapons and Iran has not done that.

As far as supporting "terrorism," every coin has two sides and frankly I don't want to get into debate which would take us into politics than what is the purpose of this thread. And I can't really discuss boasted statements that are not backed up with proper references.

If you look at history of nuclear weapons and how other countries wanted the technology because they felt threatened by those that already had the bomb.

US and USSR
China and India
India and Pakistan
Israel and now Iran.

As far as I know, Iran doesn't care if the "world" trusts Israel or not. Iran has to worry about it's own security all by its self and that is why the sense of threat from Israel is there and which makes iran get the bomb for it's protection and rightly so. From Iran's perspective, the trust that world has in Israel is not going to help Iran when Israel decides to attack Iran like when it attacked Iraq in 1980s. Some would call that attack an act of terrorism and some would call that attack for protection. It matter of who you ask, really.

If Iran had nukes today, would Israel or anyone else be talking about attacking Iran? I don't think so. That is the purpose of the Nukes and those who have them understand that very much. Iran knows what will happen if it uses nuclear weapons... of course us Americans will be given yet another case for war and we would have to agree, very unfortunate with the half truths going around.
 

Patzek

New Member
i don't have time now so i'll just post it quick

You're talking about iran like it's like any other mature country that feel " threatend " by other country.
This is not the case!!!!!!!!!
Iran's president is acting like a freaking terrorist, who wants to destroy other country and shows up in a organization of anti zionist!!!!!!!!
i really don't know enough english to describe it exacly,
but Iran is laughing in the face of all of us, and they say they are afraid of israel as an exuce for they're actions.
 

MikMyk

New Member
Direct Land Assault on Iran:

Assymetrically and Direct. You've got essentially two military forces in Iran IIRC (Pasdaran and Regular Army). Pasdaran is generally better equipped and trained.

The greatest defense Iran has is its geography. Moving toward Tehran from any direction means lots of the rough, rocky terrain with plenty of ambush points. Lot of nightmare scenarios developed during the Cold War about such a thing. Harold Coyle did a nice novel that touched on alot of it (Sword Point rings a bell for some reason). Anyways this is probably the greatest deterrent from and sort of land invasion.

Naval War would be a US victory most likely. US CVBG's can stand off well away from Iranian naval forces. Only concern is the Iranians can close the Straits of Hormuz and play havoc on tanker traffic (see Tanker War). They have significant capabilities to do this and hold for an effective amount of time. Many smaller SSM armed combantants (China CATS, Hoku's, Combattante etc) as well as fixed and mobile SSM batteries (sorry no Russian Sunburns they were prototyped for land launch but never produced). For that reason the invasion might start in that region as to preven the Iranians from closing Hormuz.

Air War US/Israeli victory without a doubt. Overmatch in most categories. The Iranians would probably inflict several more losses due to some newer SAM systems being aquired (Russian SA-10 types etc).

Limited Air incursion:

Certainly doable but most likely wouldn't be able to stop the nuclear program. Too many aimpoints (known and unknown) and there is no bomb that makes people dumber (once they have the knowhow, they know how:) So would most likely deter for a short period of time and then start up somewhere else within Iran etc. Osirak worked because there was one reactor and work was generally occuring in the same place. Not so in Iran.

IMHO the only way to prevent is to be sure Israel has a credible deterrent. As much as I'd like to get rid of those horrible weapons deterrence is the only solution that has worked.
 

MikMyk

New Member
One of the bigger criticisms in terms of the Iranians is how poorly their forces talk and work with each other. So for instance if Bandar Abbas is the invasion target can the Pasdaran forces talk to the regular army, Air force or navy in the city. Can any of them effectively communicate with forces outside that city/region and coordinate their defense? Its a big achilles heal and by most accounts they don't work too well together.
 

webmaster

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Working on the assumption that Israel has nuclear weapons then why did Israel acquire nuclear technology? Didn't it feel "threatened" by the "terrorist" arab countries around it? Then why isn't that logic applied here in case of Iran? Why is nuclear technology good for Israel and not Iran or any other country in the middle east? I think that is very hypocritical. Nuclear weapons have served has detterants every since two countries in the world had them. When only US had them, even USSR felt threatened. If Japan had the weapons, US would have never used it.

If you look at the situation fairly and without any pride; Iran is a country and it has the right to acquire nuclear technology just like any other country does including Israel. The situation only changes when Iran threatens and uses the weapons preemptively.

My friend, you don't need english to understand the logic here. If Israel attacks Iran today, it would still mean war / act of war. If Israel attacks Iran after it has the nuclear weapons, it would still mean war / act of war. But, Israel is a smart country it would NEVER attack Iran once it knows that Iran has the bomb which means no war unless Iran uses the bomb on Israel first which is never going to happen as Iran has not made any indication of using nuclear weapons first let alone on Israel.

You are looking at things from Israeli perspective only and not from both sides. As a country Iran has the right to acquire nukes so does Japan and Malta... that is another thing that Malta can't and Japan won't. I keep saying this, if Japan had the bomb during WW II, US wouldn't have used the weapon them. Only thing keeping Pakistan and India locked in peace talks are the nuclear weapons and both are well aware that nuclear weapons used by either one will result in destruction of both of the countries. There is a greater possibility of war and attack on Iran when we know that it doesn't have any weapons but the threat of war and attack on Iran decreases when we would know that Iran does have the bomb. Israel attacked Iraq on the assumption that Iraq might use the weapon on Israel, maybe it should try the same with Iran and let's see where the world goes.
 

Jim Goose

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Patzek said:
i don't have time now so i'll just post it quick

You're talking about iran like it's like any other mature country that feel " threatend " by other country.
This is not the case!!!!!!!!!
Again, it's unfortunate the president said the things he did, but to say that Iran is not like any other country that feels threatned? That is not true and we need only look at the last few years to see this.

Iranians look to the east and they see American bases in Afghanistan, they look to the west in Iraq and see the same thing. They look into the persian gulf and see fleets of US battleships. There is a reason they're feeling threatned, Iran has been exploited by the US before and has also fought a bloody and pointless war with Iraq. The Iranian people do not want another war such as that with Iraq and Iran also does not want to be exploited again.

Who is really on the defensive here if we look at the situation objectively?

Had the US not have invaded Iraq, who's to say that another moderate would not have been elected in Iran as President like the former Khatami? And If 9/11 had not happened, perhaps George Bush would not have been re-elected in 2004? It's hard to say in both cases, but the analogy is fitting I believe.

I believe moreso than anything, the west does not want a nuclear capable middle east because it would prefer to continue projecting dominance in that region, and not because they fear crazy Mullahs will launch their first nuke at Israel but for other reasons.

Lets remember that the president of Iran is not the first world leader to have said something stupid or confrontational. It seems to me he was more interested in garnering and solidifying his support then actually presenting a case for war against Israel to the Iranian people.

As I pointed out earlier, the Ayatollah Khamenei who is the true ruler of Iran, has gone as far as retracting the statements of the president. Perhaps the president himself will do the same.

And as Webmaster has pointed out, the best deterrent against nuclear war is assured mutual destruction. No one wants that, not even crazy Mullahs. They enjoy their wealth as much as the fat cats in the west enjoy theirs.

MikMyk said:
One of the bigger criticisms in terms of the Iranians is how poorly their forces talk and work with each other. So for instance if Bandar Abbas is the invasion target can the Pasdaran forces talk to the regular army, Air force or navy in the city. Can any of them effectively communicate with forces outside that city/region and coordinate their defense? Its a big achilles heal and by most accounts they don't work too well together.
I think this was the case during the Iran-Iraq war, since most of Iran's best military leaders were purged, as well as most of the officers in the air force. Very unorganized attacks and little effective co-operation took place on the part of Iran, aside from human waves. But I think a very hard lesson was learned then, so whatever the current level of command & control is now, it will probably be much more effective than that of the Iran-Iraq war.

How effective this would be against a US invasion is doubtful, but do you think Iran would really favour a direct engagement with invading forces? Or are you referring to a sort of asymetrical engagement at Bandar Abbas, if that was the point of invasion.
 
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MikMyk

New Member
I think this was the case during the Iran-Iraq war, since most of Iran's best military leaders were purged, as well as most of the officers in the air force. Very unorganized attacks and little effective co-operation took place on the part of Iran, aside from human waves. But I think a very hard lesson was learned then, so whatever the current level of command & control is now, it will probably be much more effective than that of the Iran-Iraq war.

How effective this would be against a US invasion is doubtful, but do you think Iran would really favour a direct engagement with invading forces? Or are you referring to a sort of asymetrical engagement at Bandar Abbas, if that was the point of invasion.
No was a statement about the current command and control situation. However I'll agree its probably better than the Iran-Iraq war. Any current data on their systems you can share as you pointed out its improvement?

I think it would most likely be a mix of the two different types of warfare. You will have regular engagements and many smaller insurgent engagements. I do think the Iranians would engage US forces directly and yes it would be their best strategy. As long as everyone knows where to go and what to do. I also think guerillas would be employed as they've been successful elsewhere. Not sure why you would ask one or the other when both could be employed and there is a history of both in the nation you're talking about :confused:

Bandar-e-Abbas was picked as its importance would make it a likely place to postulate any type of engagement as it is a likely war objective in most US-Iran invasion type scenario.
 

Jim Goose

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MikMyk said:
Not sure why you would ask one or the other when both could be employed and there is a history of both in the nation you're talking about :confused:
Heh, I guess you're right. I was thinking of a scenerio where 2 armies would engage in a massive conventional battle like in hollywood or something. Iran does have quite a variety of options in the conventional sense, the important thing would be how many of these would survive an initial pre-invasion aerial or off coast bombardment. Their airfields, helipads, missile sites, tanks etc...

I'm sure there are many in the conventional army who would more than gladly take part in something similar to kamikaze. Iran still has quite a number of operational F4/F5s to use in a scenerio such as this, instead of having them all in hangars just to be destroyed. And maybe Iran's interest in the Shafaqh single seater jet (with some supposed stealth feature) is a move towards having something fairly capable but also expendible in the air? This is just an assumption based on Iran's move towards becoming entirely self-sufficient in arms production. It seems they are on the right track in the sense that they are constructing their local military complex to avoid parts and weapons shortages similar to the last war.

Also, you mentioned Iran has access to SA-10s, are these known to be effective against anything on the US side that may be used against Iran? I would imagine Iran's radar has also undergone major upgrades since their last war, but from what I know this is still something that is lacking.

And my thoughts about command and control come from reading the usual articles you would find at places like globalsecurity.com and other sites. Also something to point out is that since Iran's last conflict, the role of religious and non-military persons influencing the command of the conventional and non-conventional elements in Iran's army have been drastically curtailed, for obvious reasons.

Also, I don't know if you have seen the videos of the "large" war game exercises Iran has been holding out in the desert the last couple years, but from the looks of what I saw there seemed to be a lot of coordination between all arms of the military, army, air force, and even some navy / special force exercises. I will try to find the site where I saw these, they were very interesting. And I do have a few of those videos saved on my computer if you'd like them, you can add me to MSN;

[email protected]

Glad to find informative discussions at this site :)
 
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MikMyk

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Jim Goose said:
Heh, I guess you're right. I was thinking of a scenerio where 2 armies would engage in a massive conventional battle like in hollywood or something. Iran does have quite a variety of options in the conventional sense, the important thing would be how many of these would survive an initial pre-invasion aerial or off coast bombardment. Their airfields, helipads, missile sites, tanks etc...
Farther from the coast the more likely it is to survive. Outside Desert Storm and to a degree Iraqi freedom where the Iraqi army decided to dig and die the Iranians will probaby mobilize pretty quickly and be a bit more mobile. US airpower is a bit less effective against more mobile armies and equipment (see Kosovo). None the less the Iranians would suffer heaviliy in the initial blitz.

Iran still has quite a number of operational F4/F5s to use in a scenerio such as this, instead of having them all in hangars just to be destroyed. And maybe Iran's interest in the Shafaqh single seater jet (with some supposed stealth feature) is a move towards having something fairly capable but also expendible in the air? This is just an assumption based on Iran's move towards becoming entirely self-sufficient in arms production. It seems they are on the right track in the sense that they are constructing their local military complex to avoid parts and weapons shortages similar to the last war.
Iran has F-4E's, Mig-29's, SU-24's, F-5's, Few Mirage F-1EQ's, J-7's and some F-14's left over from the Shah, the great Iraqi AF retreat a a few purchases they've made in the last decade.

They have two home grown fighter programs (one a near F-5 copy and one a double engined aircraft). Have yet to see a real picture of operational aircraft. Seen tons of mockups and aviation art though:)

As far as equipment outside aviation they've built alot of military vehicles. These include Zulifiquar and Tofan tanks, Boraq IFV's, and lots of artillery pieces. Their short and medium missiles aren't too shabby either. Lots of other munitions etc. as well.

There is information all over the net about this just be fairly skeptical what you find. Operational pictures (like your videos etc) seem to be best.

Also, you mentioned Iran has access to SA-10s, are these known to be effective against anything on the US side that may be used against Iran? I would imagine Iran's radar has also undergone major upgrades since their last war, but from what I know this is still something that is lacking.
Iranian Air Defense is improving. Off the top of my head Great Wall Radars have just been installed, lots of all radars (TPS-40-50 era etc) still around. SA-10 is said to be employed but nobody really knows where. SA-5 and copies are installed and deployed regionally (can even see one via google earth at Bandar e Bushear). Lots of I-Hawks, SA-2/3/HQ-2/3 around. Nothing like the Shah had planned but not too bad. Again though don't know how well regions talk to each other etc.

And my thoughts about command and control come from reading the usual articles you would find at places like globalsecurity.com and other sites. Also something to point out is that since Iran's last conflict, the role of religious and non-military persons influencing the command of the conventional and non-conventional elements in Iran's army have been drastically curtailed, for obvious reasons.
Yeah you are correct. Although Pasdaran answers to whom and regular army answers to another whom. Big problemo ;)

Glad to find informative discussions at this site :)
Yes thank you its been great.
 

aaaditya

New Member
i believe iran also has 20-30 su27's which defected from iraq during the gulf far,they can be made operational with russia help,also i believe they have some tu22's which can be used for nuclear strike roles.
f4e phantom,f-14,su24,j7 and mirage f1 will not be able to hold up against the coalition or israeli airforce(even if they are thoroughly upgraded),also i dont think that iran has modern awacs or inflight refuellers.
 

MikMyk

New Member
No SU-27 Flankers. Iraq never had those and Iran never bought from Russia/Ukraine. TU-22 Blinders never left Iraq. Can still see whats left of them on many pictures around the net.The Blinders were very early models and took a beating during the War of the Cities phase of the Iran/Iraq War and Desert Storm.

Most modern fighters Iran has are the Iraqi Mig-29's and and squardron of Russian bought Mig-29's.

Scramble on the net keeps some reasonable orders of battle. I've never seen them overstate data so a pretty good source.

http://www.scramble.nl/ir.htm
 
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