Invade Zimbabwe call

Stryker001

Banned Member
The last person MI6 tried to assassinate was Nasser, they got out of that business a long time ago, its uncivilized behavior for gentlemen. They would have to speak to the CIA about that.

They could use a UAV to take him out if they really wanted to, I agree he will die of natural causes.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
To be completely honest, Zimbabwe has a handful of reasonably old fighter aircraft, and it would be no real challenge for a developed country with current fighter aircraft to attain air superiority, given a concerted effort to do so.

Even a carrier air wing could do the trick, assuming that it would be allowed to overfly the neighbouring countries. The difficulty would be in sustaining an operation overhead given the distance needed to RTB.

After that, one could simply paradrop troops to secure an airfield, and fly C-17 / C-5 troop lifts into the country, assuming that one could organise enough birds with the right people on board in close enough proximity (i.e. as far away as Europe or India, with tanker support in between). I'd opt for long-distance troop lifts to remove the problem of neighbouring countries getting upset.

The trick is to find the right airfield away from any concentration of heavy artillery. The tanks fielded by the Zimbabwe National Army are outdated and an attack helicopter squadron would have little trouble if UAV's are there to scout for them. The trick is the artillery. Counter-battery would be difficult to muster early on, and so they would need to be found quickly and destroyed by strike aircraft.

Guerilla warfare is the next problem, although I would be hoping the altercation would be short - in the order of weeks - to prevent guerilla bands from gaining enough strength and organisation to become effective.

Within a few weeks, one would hope that the National Army were contained and Mugabe deposed in quick order. Intelligence of his whereabouts would be vital, as you don't want to be chasing him all over the country wasting time.

Sounds oversimplified, but the key isn't total dominance. The key here is swift and decisive action with regards to Mugabe and wrapping up the ZNA before they can mount a large scale defence, by tying up some elements, destroying others and generally hampering efforts to move anything anywhere using strike aircraft and helicopters. Completely destroying the ZNA would actually be detrimental as you would then leave the country with no self-defence after you leave. It is also imperative that the Zimbabwe Republic Police are somehow contained without becoming involved, as they must be intact when you leave also. Negotiations with them are possible once hostilities open, however you would like to approach it.
 
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barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
From a military perspective one could always send in the TRG, there’s nothing a police tactical operator can’t achieve.
Better still, we could send in the Victorian Police Force. Nobody messes with them and lives to tell the tale. :D

A Black Op based on Predator's armed with mavericks to take him out.
 

Stryker001

Banned Member
Trg

Better still, we could send in the Victorian Police Force. Nobody messes with them and lives to tell the tale. :D
:eek:nfloorl:
Probably not a good idea look at former QPS Brendan Hurst in Iraq RPG ambush and now deceased allegedly by Sunni militia linked to the US. No one claimed responsibility.
 

Combatintman

New Member
The answer to the original exam question has to be no - I suspect the only scenario that the UK will get involved militarily would be a non-combatant evacuation operation (NEO). Of course were that to happen then there is the potential for the situation to develop in a similar fashion to that in Sierra Leone and I suspect that there is sufficient groundswell in Zimbabwe to indicate that certain sections of the population would be supported. You only have to look at how savagely the MDC are repressed by Mugabe to see that he sees them as a threat.

Of course making comparisons between Sierra Leone and Zimbabwe is fraught with danger - there are similarities of course, ex-Colony, elements of the population sick of suffering and the fact that it is in Africa. However there are huge differences as well - Sierra Leone has a coastline whereas Zimbabwe does not, Governance (however flawed people think it is) is stronger and the Security Forces are viable whereas in Sierra Leone they were not. Zimbabwe also has better infrastructure which could lend advantages to both sides.

Given that a NEO is essentially a raid in doctrinal terms this imposes a number of restrictions - secrecy, limited footprint and limited duration being the main ones. Coupled with that - if we accept that secrecy is paramount then there is no opportunity for a force build-up and we add the fact that the lack of a coastline limits UK forces to aerial insertion then the problems are compounded. It is likely that the UK would struggle to insert a force to pull off a NEO. Any support by tactical strike aircraft will be ruled out by political considerations because neighbouring countries would be compelled to support overflight and staging rights for military transport aircraft as it is a NEO, they are unlikely to sanction the basing of land-based strike aircraft.

The other planning factor then is where are the Entitled Persons (EPs - namely those that are going to be evacuated) and how many of them are there. Ideally they should be concentrated but as I don't know where they all live it is difficult to speculate. For the sake of argument we'll say that they are clustered around Bulawayo and Harare or at least can move there on instructions. This then means that an area in both Bulawayo and Harare needs to be secured and given the fact that aerial insertion is the only option here then that pretty much means the airports at those locations. Both look in pretty good order on Google Earth and have decent-sized runways so the type of aircraft they can accept is not too much of a problem, by that I mean that any of Strike Command's transport fleet (Tristar, C-130, C-17 and VC-10) could land there.

The other factor then is 'enemy forces' - worst case assumption is that this is going to be a contested operation and the first thing we need to think about is the Zimbabwean Air Force, in particular its fast jets. According to the aeroflight website this boils down to 10 x Hawk, 11 x F-7 and 3 x MIG-23 which are conveniently all at Thornhill. Given the previous assumption that UK combat aircraft will not be permitted to forward base in Africa then three COAs are likely:

COA1 - Insertion of UKSF to destroy the aircraft on the ground or with MANPADs.
COA2 - TLAM strike from maritime assets (Trafalgar Class SSN).
COA3 - Air strike by Harrier from a CVS off Beira.

COA1 - Advantages are that the troops on the ground can make a decision namely only to strike those aircraft that pose a threat (i.e. those taking off). This lessens the political fallout inherent in the other COAs. However it is probably the most risky because of the risk of detection.

COA2 - Provides better security and is the least risky politically but most risky in terms of achieving the effect in that if one aircraft is missed then it could potentially shoot down all of the incoming transport aircraft.

COA3 - This COA is quite risky logistically because Thornhill lies at the extent of the Harrier's range if flying a medium altitude profile. Also such a profile increases the risk of detection by air defence assets. Also there is the problem of overflying Mozambique - permission is unlikely to be granted and to ask for permission would compromise the operation. In extremis HM Government would in all likelihood just fly the sorties and deal with the political fallout later.

Given these options I would select COA1 - insertion of UKSF equipped with MANPAD. However I would have at least 2 x SSN on station to give me the option of launching TLAM and a Carrier BG to give me airpower (the need for this will become clear later).

Having dealt with the air to air threat we now need to look at ground threats and primarily those in the immediate vicinity of Harare and Bulawayo.

A quick search on wikipedia indicates the following in the Harare area:

1st Commando Regiment
Presidential Guard Regiment (3 x Bns of which one can be discounted because it would likely deploy to protect Mugabe)
Parachute Group (strength unknown - Coy strength for the sake of argument)
A Mechanised Bde comprising a Tank Regiment and an IFV Regiment and normal supporting arms.
An Infantry Bde with 3 x Inf Bns, a Recce Coy (Armoured Car), a Mortar Bty and an AD Bty
Two Field Artillery Regiments
An Air Defence Regiment

A similar Wikipedia search indicates the following in Bulawayo:

An Infantry Bde with 3 x Inf Bns, a Recce Coy (Armoured Car), a Mortar Bty and an AD Bty

Overall then it can be seen that the Harare-based forces pose the greatest threat to the operation and in particular I would single out the artillery and the air defence which fortunately according to Wikipedia are all at Inkomo Barracks.

The problem then becomes what assets do you need to secure Bulawayo airport and Harare airport in the face of those threats whilst concurrently processing, feeding and evacuating EPs. The force package I would go for would be something like this:

Harare area:

UKSF Squadron less one troop detached to Thornhill as previously described. The role of this squadron would be to provide surveillance on the Mechanised Bde Bks and the artillery/air defence bks. The Squadron would be there to cue Harrier airstrikes at the first sign of any deployment related activity. They would be equipped with LAW to deal with any air defence platforms that appeared to be active.

An RAF Regiment Field Squadron to provide specialist airfield defence capability and advice.

A Parachute or Light-Role Infantry Battalion to provide the majority of the combat power and secure a suitable perimeter as well as the logistic framework to deal with the EPs. For those of you looking at the numbers and wondering about the armour threat I would say that this is still a sufficient force - a combination of Javelin and LAW for instance will make mincemeat of the Armoured Brigade.

An Engineer Troop.

A 105mm Light Gun Troop.

If sufficient airlift was available I would take a Formation Recce Sqn to give me a mobile strike capability or a robust reserve.

Bulawayo Area:

A simpler problem requiring less resources - a Parachute or Light Role Infantry Battalion would suffice.

To deliver that would require every aircraft in the UK's transport inventory and more so the operation would need to be phased or civil aircraft would need to be chartered (whilst of course sustaining current commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan). So all in all - for the UK to conduct a simple NEO would provide challenging to say the least!

If we take the separate but more widely discussed option in this thread - namely depose Mugabe previous posters have covered the political difficulties. By that I mean involvement by Non-African and African countries and certainly rules out mercenaries in any guise. The solution therefore has to come from the Zimbabwean people which leaves two courses of action - palace coup or a protracted insurgency.

The former in terms of preventing even more bloodshed would be the most desirable COA - but I sense that loyalty to Mugabe amongst those who would be best placed to carry out the palace coup rules that COA out.

This leaves an insurgency as the only workable military COA, and it begs the question of is it possible? To be successful the insurgency would have to be based in a neighbouring state because the Zimbabwean security apparatus has shown itself as brutally effective in putting down any signs of dissent. Also the fact that people are struggling to exist in Zimbabwe means that the insurgency has to be based initially in a border state. The resources are certainly there, notably the Zimbabweans who are crossing the South African border in their droves. Given the lack of indicators that any of Zimbabwe's neighbours would be willing to host an insurgency for various reasons - be they ideological, economic or a combination of both, the situation looks pretty hopeless.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The whole point is not how to contain the army and police forces, it is how to make sure they stay out of politics in the post Mugabe environment. With the ZANU party itself split between different factions, and with ethnic issues in the way as well, taking out Mugabe would just lead to some very messy civil war. This might happen as well anyway when the old dictator dies of old age, but at least this leaves some time to the different government factions and opposition to try and find some common ground for the future...
I really hope the remaining obsolete assets (from J7 fighterbombers to Type 59 MBTs) are out of use because they could be used in a civil war...

cheers
 

Tempest

New Member
Zimbabwe Defence Forces Not That Weak

The AIDS problem is over-estimated and South African's ability to subdue its neighbours is overstated - LOTS OF WISHFUL THINKING HERE! SANDF did not find it that easy to take on the Lesotho DF in 1998 and this is an even smaller force with no war experience. The South African military "huffed and puffed" to stop the weaker (than the national armies of it current northen neigbours) nationalist liberation movements but still they crambled one after another - then the apatheid SADF fell too.

The situation is Zimbabwe is bad/very bad but RGM has kept the army oiled and supplied. A lot of the equipment info on the internet is terribly inaccurate. Lots of arms flow into the country undeclared. The ZDF is my hobby what they have and don't have is difficult to asses. The logistics for an invasion are complex and there will be bloodshed and I am not talking of Zimbabwean blood which you hawks posting here are not worried about.

Targeting RGM and a few of his friends THAT I SUPPORT but still Zimbabweans have to lead and be given the means. Anyway, the REAL people (Guthries, UK comes to mind) involved in planning such an action ruled it out - THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING! ... ... Remember the Americans led Uganda and Rwanda in the 1998 invasion of DRC - guess who stopped them at Kabila's doorstep - even hot-extracting Kabila from his palace in Kinshasa? ... ... Zimbabweans, 2000km away. (http://www.africasia.com/archive/na/01_09/cover1.htm ) Look at Somalia, A'stan and Iraq.

Combatintman, not all heavy weapons are at Inkomo - the armour and para are based there, I believe 2 Mech might be there too. Some of the tanks and filed artillery are at Kutanga. 1 Mech is at Ngezi Barracks, Air Defence artillery is at Chegutu, anti-tank at Battlefields, there is a Combined arms battle school in Shurugwi and I suspect a good mix of formations. There is also the All-Arms Battle School in Inyanga (where BMATT was based). Darwendale has an underground/mountain tunnel arms storage facility allegedly with some fighters based there too.

One of the main airbases, Manyame is on the opposite side (across the runway) of Harare airport. On the same grounds with the airport is Kabrit Barracks - I believe once the SAS Barracks. The Commando Regiment and 2 Brigade HQ is less than 10 minutes from Hre Airport. Pomona Barracks (Hre) has some specialised units with heavy equipment but mostly combat engineering. The Presidential Guard HQ is at Dzivarasekwa (Hre).
 
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Tempest

New Member

Have you gone through the figures lately and seen how they have been backtracking on their OVERSTIMATED numbers? It is a problem, ys, but the numbers are not what we have been fed for years.
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Have you gone through the figures lately and seen how they have been backtracking on their OVERSTIMATED numbers? It is a problem, ys, but the numbers are not what we have been fed for years.
Your an American.

Tell me, Zimbabwe??
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Have you gone through the figures lately and seen how they have been backtracking on their OVERSTIMATED numbers? It is a problem, ys, but the numbers are not what we have been fed for years.
Just for some clarification. Are you referring to the AIDs ratios in Zimbabwe, Sth Africa, Southern Africa, Centra Africa or Africa in general?

The reason I ask is that I've had various official dealings with the Botswanan Govt (less than 12 months ago), and the numbers cited to me by their own officials is that in certain demographics they estimate up to 25% of that data cohort is affected. The issue of the impact of AIDs in Botswana came up in discussions because it has a substantial impact upon issues of deployment, health care in the military services, ongoing support to the infirm etc .......... Its a burden on govt and its ability to plan for other critical portfolios.

Botswana is regarded as one of the jewels in the african continental crown because it is regarded as a model of probity, stability and diligent governance (continuous stable govt since 1966). I would have thought that if one of the most - if not the most electorally stable country in the african continent has a problem then less diligently managed countries would struggle.
 
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Tempest

New Member
http://www.avert.org/subaadults.htm

Figures that have been published lately have been revising AIDS estimates downwards. While I agree with your reasoning on the national health being in line with the general economy, here is one estimate on AIDS, which agree with your figures for Botswana but put Zimbabwe lower.

(I have put the link in the title because the it won't let me post a URL)
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Ok Tempest. Give me an ORBAT in Zim.

Seriously - we would have to agree, this is not the force it once was.

ZiMSAS Strength? Fire Force tactics? North Korean Mercs?

Can you tell us?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'd seriously question the capacity of zimbabwe to sustain any protracted or deep military operation.

We know that they are struggling just to maintain fuel reserves. I attended a central and south african support session some 5 months ago. Zimbabwe was struggling to maintain basic governance operations outside of transport hubs due to fuel problems. In fact they were detected trying to obtain fuel illegally through "tame" contacts in Uganda and Mozambique. It was so frequent that export watch notices had been applied to all of zimbabwes neighbours so as to control dodgey manifests.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Figures that have been published lately have been revising AIDS estimates downwards. While I agree with your reasoning on the national health being in line with the general economy, here is one estimate on AIDS, which agree with your figures for Botswana but put Zimbabwe lower.

(I have put the link in the title because the it won't let me post a URL)
IIRC HIV/AIDS prevalence rates are down in Africa because... HIV/AIDS afflicted persons are dying faster than new ones are entering the HIV/AIDS pool, relative to the size of the entire pop. It's statistics of demography, not an actual sign of an improving situation.
 

Tempest

New Member
IIRC HIV/AIDS prevalence rates are down in Africa because... HIV/AIDS afflicted persons are dying faster than new ones are entering the HIV/AIDS pool, relative to the size of the entire pop. It's statistics of demography, not an actual sign of an improving situation.
You could be right!
 
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