Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS)

Feanor

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Staff member
The explanation is accurate, and in a simplified way it can be described the way we did in this thread earlier. To put it simply 3 different radars, a C3 vehicle, and 12 TELs (launchers). I'm not sure if the distances are, and I doubt there is a way to positively confirm them.

The photo has one of each radar not 4. In essence there is one of each radar per btln. However many sets of radars and C3 vecs you have, that's how many System-300 you have. Essentially you could have 1 TEL per system. All it would do is drop your rate of fire, and consequently the number of aircraft you can engage.
 

Duffy

New Member
So depending on the size of the aria to be protected and the lay of the land to be determand by Todjaeger we would be looking at something like 4 S-300 systems with 24 TEL ( 6 per system) . Thats easy enough, but putting a number on each system could be more difficult. Thanks Feanor ( Do you know how much a launcher is worth off hand)
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm not sure launchers are sold separately. Also there's the issue of what exactly he's buying. Refurbished and modernized S-300PS from Russian Army stocks are a lot cheaper then brand new S-300PMU-2. So the 10 units Kazakhstan recently ordered probably cost a lot less then the ones sold to China.

The price also depends on diplomacy, haggling, and what is included as far as spares, munitions, training, etc. Which is why I'd be interested to see how Todjaeger sources his estimates. This isn't to say his numbers are wrong, but rather that it would give us some insight into what exactly Turaqistan acquired.
 

Todjaeger

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I'm not sure launchers are sold separately. Also there's the issue of what exactly he's buying. Refurbished and modernized S-300PS from Russian Army stocks are a lot cheaper then brand new S-300PMU-2. So the 10 units Kazakhstan recently ordered probably cost a lot less then the ones sold to China.

The price also depends on diplomacy, haggling, and what is included as far as spares, munitions, training, etc. Which is why I'd be interested to see how Todjaeger sources his estimates. This isn't to say his numbers are wrong, but rather that it would give us some insight into what exactly Turaqistan acquired.
What I had in mind was a unit/units of S-300PMU-1, and/or equivalent refurbished and moderized ex-Russian Army S-300 systems. I had this in mind both from a delivery timeframe standpoint, as well as cost.

Incidentally, it appears amongst some commentators that the terms 'system' and battery are used interchangeably. It also appears that what the Russian Army would call an S-300 battalion, others are calling a battery. Hence some of the confusion.

Now I would prefer to keep this more to discusion of IADS, since Russian SAM systems/pricing is really worthy of a thread on its own merits, but here are some of the things I had come across with pricing.

S-300PMU-1 purchase by Cyprus listed here gives a price of $91 mil. per 'system' in 1994, with the total order having a value of $400 - 600 mil. with speculation that ~3 batteries of 12 launchers each were ordered... Deagel has a price of $160 mil. for S-300PMU1 listed here.

A listing for the price of the Buk battery the Ukraine sold to Georgia in 2007 is shown as $28 mil. for the CP, targeting radar, 6 mobile launchers and 3 reloading vehicles, is from here. It is also noted that this price was considered unacceptably low. Somewhere else I recall reading that Pakistan had apparently offered the Ukraine $100 mil. for those same units which went to Georgia.

Similarly, I will need to see if I can relocate where I came across a price of ~$25 mil. for Tunguska.

-Cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Either way you have 4 btlns worth of radars, and 2-3 batteries worth of launchers. Given that the launchers are the cheaper part, I'd think that if they're willing to fork up the money for 4 sets of radars and C3, they will be willing to spend the money on the extra launchers to have 4 btlns. If you want to have less then that, probably reduce the number of radars? Given that the Cyprus purchase is a bit dated, it's not unreasonable to call the 800 for 5 units simply inflation from 100 per unit.
 

Todjaeger

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Either way you have 4 btlns worth of radars, and 2-3 batteries worth of launchers. Given that the launchers are the cheaper part, I'd think that if they're willing to fork up the money for 4 sets of radars and C3, they will be willing to spend the money on the extra launchers to have 4 btlns. If you want to have less then that, probably reduce the number of radars? Given that the Cyprus purchase is a bit dated, it's not unreasonable to call the 800 for 5 units simply inflation from 100 per unit.
I had also come across a more recent number of ~$125 mil. per S-300 battery, from a PRC order in 2004.

Having said that, and given the relatively small number of TELs, for purposes of illustration I have no issue with changing the IADS setup of Turaqistan to four batteries/battalions of S-300PMU1. The arrangement would still be that same, with each battery being locating at one of the four Sites and having 12 TELs per battery.

-Cheers
 

Feanor

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Staff member
So 4 bltns S-300PMU1, 1 btln Buk-M1, and 6 batteries of 2S6 Tunguska-M? No flyable air. Awfully shiny.

So they have no tac-SAMs, SPAAGs, or anything else besides MANPADS and optical-sight AAA in their motor-infantry, or armored units? Or are we disregarding an unspecified number of older systems used in those troops, because they are not linked to the IADS and essentially act independently as last-ditch protection for those forces?

EDIT: This is the defense of the capital. How big is the country? Assuming there are no real air-defense assets anywhere else, are there any other radars, even airport control radars? LPs/OPs, with a radio or a cell phone, that could call in an incoming strike package simply on audio-visual ID? Any info-sharing agreements with our neighbors? If we're in the CARs, we're likely a CSTO and certainly a CIS member state, which means data exchange at least with them. Maybe not firing solutions, but certainly a "Hey, 23487562387945629387465 hostile aircraft incoming"...

Also how well are the crews trained, and the whole system as a whole coordinated? Can all the SAMs remain cold, until the hostile aircraft are confidently inside the engagement envelope, and then simultaneously light up the SAMs that can engage them? Are the good at manouvering? An S-300 btln/battery can go from a marching column to a hot SAM site in ~5 mins, with proper training. A single Tunguska needs seconds. Are the operators trained well enough to pull this off? Are there multiple back-up positions set up for the SAMs? What about decoys and fake positions?

Also who's our potential adversary?

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but it seems the more realistic we can get this scenario, the better picture we can get for what the strength and weaknesses are, and in what circumstances GBAD can and can't be effective.
 

DarthAmerica

Defense Professional
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Hello,

If I may weigh in a bit. When using history to access the effectiveness of GBAD systems. We need to consider the threat a given GBAD is designed to stop. For instance Iraq 1991. In no way was that IAD designed to stop a force like the one that attacked him that year. It was designed to take on Iran.

So we have to consider how skewed the balance of power is and who the IAD was designed to protect against when referencing history.

Regards,
DA
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hello,

If I may weigh in a bit. When using history to access the effectiveness of GBAD systems. We need to consider the threat a given GBAD is designed to stop. For instance Iraq 1991. In no way was that IAD designed to stop a force like the one that attacked him that year. It was designed to take on Iran.

So we have to consider how skewed the balance of power is and who the IAD was designed to protect against when referencing history.

Regards,
DA
You're spot on. If I may re-phrase (and correct me if I misunderstand) what you're asking is basically who the likely threats are, and which particular threat Turaqistan expects so soon in the near future that it purchases over a billion worth of advanced SAM systems.
 

Duffy

New Member


I think the best way to determine a threat would be to choose a country with a small air force that could be used as the hostels. For some reason Colombia came to mind, but the Colombian Air Force might be to small ( I have nothing against Colombia)
 

Todjaeger

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So 4 bltns S-300PMU1, 1 btln Buk-M1, and 6 batteries of 2S6 Tunguska-M? No flyable air. Awfully shiny.
Just a point of correction here. It is four batteries of Tunguska, not six. Given the figures I am getting from the WAG Institute, the price estimate from this sort of configuration would be ~$700 - 900 mil. As mentioned previously, there would be aircraft included in the mix, but these would largely be limited to fixed and rotary-winged lift aircraft, with some CAS/ground attack as well. The 'pointy' end in terms of aircraft would likely be in the form of Mi-24 helicopters and Su-25. By way of example, look how the Iraqi airforce has been getting reconstituted since ~2003.

So they have no tac-SAMs, SPAAGs, or anything else besides MANPADS and optical-sight AAA in their motor-infantry, or armored units? Or are we disregarding an unspecified number of older systems used in those troops, because they are not linked to the IADS and essentially act independently as last-ditch protection for those forces?
There likely would be various manpads like Strela-2, FIM-43 Redeye, and Blowpipe, equipping some small unit formations, but these would be to provide the units they are attached to with a limited air defence capability. Similarly, there might be a few (surviving) examples of mobile SAM and/or SPAAG systems. Like any manpads in use, these would likely be of various types of autonomous ADS like Roland, Crotale, 9K35 Strela-10, and ZSU-23-4 Shilka. When such units are functional, they are able to provide the unit(s) they are attached to an organic ADS, but that are not capable of making any meaningful contribution to Turaqistan's IADS around the Emerald City.

EDIT: This is the defense of the capital. How big is the country? Assuming there are no real air-defense assets anywhere else, are there any other radars, even airport control radars? LPs/OPs, with a radio or a cell phone, that could call in an incoming strike package simply on audio-visual ID? Any info-sharing agreements with our neighbors? If we're in the CARs, we're likely a CSTO and certainly a CIS member state, which means data exchange at least with them. Maybe not firing solutions, but certainly a "Hey, 23487562387945629387465 hostile aircraft incoming"...

Also how well are the crews trained, and the whole system as a whole coordinated? Can all the SAMs remain cold, until the hostile aircraft are confidently inside the engagement envelope, and then simultaneously light up the SAMs that can engage them? Are the good at manouvering? An S-300 btln/battery can go from a marching column to a hot SAM site in ~5 mins, with proper training. A single Tunguska needs seconds. Are the operators trained well enough to pull this off? Are there multiple back-up positions set up for the SAMs? What about decoys and fake positions?

Also who's our potential adversary?

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but it seems the more realistic we can get this scenario, the better picture we can get for what the strength and weaknesses are, and in what circumstances GBAD can and can't be effective.
No problem with the questions, it is all background which can aide in the planning.
Turaqistan itself would be ~500,000 sq. km so roughly the size of Turkmenistan, population wise, Turaqistan has about 20 mil. people, comparable to Syria. Turaqistan itself is a land-locked Central/South Asian nation. It was not a member of the USSR and is therefore not a member of the CIS. It is a former member of the Non-Aligned Movement, and has in times past played the Eastern and Western blocs off against each other, and also been used as a proxy by both power blocs as well. Turaqistan has recently had a regime change, following an invasion by a non-bordering major power. By and large power had been handed back to Turaqistan, but there is still instability within the country, with some of the major cities having been devastated in the conflict, and still not under the control of troops affiliated with the central government. The bordering nations around Turaqistan have uneasy peace agreements with Turaqistan, with some being strongly suspected of aiding and supporting troops fighting against the central government. Some of the neighbouring nations have powerful air forces for the region, with upwards of 250 fast jet combat aircraft, a mixture of air superiority, multi-role and CAS/ground attack. Having said that though, the aircraft themselves are a mix of East and West, with F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers, serving alongside MiG-21s, F-6 and F-7s, Mirage F1s, and the most modern aircraft being MiG-29B/UB's

In short, the IADS around Emerald City is to (attempt) to guard/defend against a surprise attack by an erstwhile 'friendly' neighbour. As such, there would be very little chance of a warning being provided by another nation, since nations which could do so are the ones most likely to be launching the attack. Unfortunately due to the heavy toll fighting has taken on some of the outer cities within Turaqistan, as well as the general decline Turaqistan has suffered following the end of the Cold War, there is a distinct lack of functioning infrastructure within Turaqistan. A celluar/mobile phone transceiver network exists within the Emerald City (being a post-invasion installation) and is tied into the Turaqistani phone switch and trunk. Other areas within Turaqistan are intermittently connected to the phone switch via hardlines. As such, most communications between different areas under the control of the central government is via military radio. Apart from the approaches to Emerald City, the most reliable sensor to detect aircraft is the Mk 1 Eyeball.

As for the positions of the SAM systems themselves:
The actual radar systems are stationary. Yes, I know they are on mobile vehicles, but for what Turaqistan is using them for, static positions so that the radar's LOS can be plotted is most appropriate, at least until permanent ground radar stations can be built. The other vehicles which compose the ADS units, TELs, reloading vehicles, etc are always nearby the radar systems to receive the necessary target detection and guidance information. Having said that, they are regularly moved from one location to another, both to ensure that the various moving parts of the vehicles and systems function properly, but also to make it more difficult for the command and launch vehicles to be targeted in an attack. Most of the time, the various vehicles are going to be 'parked' in prepared positions, of which there would be sufficient prepared positions to each vehicle to have its own position as well as secondary and tertiary prepared positions. The only time of the vehicles would not be sited at a prepared position is if there was a inspection, maintenance on the vehicle, or the vehicle in question was being relocated to another prepared position.

At present Turaqistan has not purchased any vehicle decoys.

Hello,

If I may weigh in a bit. When using history to access the effectiveness of GBAD systems. We need to consider the threat a given GBAD is designed to stop. For instance Iraq 1991. In no way was that IAD designed to stop a force like the one that attacked him that year. It was designed to take on Iran.

So we have to consider how skewed the balance of power is and who the IAD was designed to protect against when referencing history.

Regards,
DA
The above is absolutely true, the IADS I am envisioning for Turaqistan is something which might be used to repel an attack by an air arm of power comparable to that of Iran, or other similar regional powers.

Barring some serious mis-steps by the RuAF, I would not expect them to have any real trouble taking the IADS around the Emerald City apart.

-Cheers
 

mk25

New Member
A little off topic but does anyone have the price quote for the S-400 system and its munitions?
 

Todjaeger

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A little off topic but does anyone have the price quote for the S-400 system and its munitions?
There are no reliable figures for S-400 prices that I am aware of. There have been several rumours about China, Greece and the UAW being offered the S-400, but the S-400 has not been exported AFAIK.

-Cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
A little off topic but does anyone have the price quote for the S-400 system and its munitions?
There isn't one. At least not an export price. Russian defence companies have different sets of prices for internal customers (such as the MoD, MVD, and countries that get the benefit of internal pricing), and for external customers (most but not all export customers). As of right now only 4 S-400 exist, and they're all part of the Moscow air defense system. We won't have a real price for the system until 2017, possibly later, when the system finally gets exported.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just a point of correction here. It is four batteries of Tunguska, not six. Given the figures I am getting from the WAG Institute, the price estimate from this sort of configuration would be ~$700 - 900 mil. As mentioned previously, there would be aircraft included in the mix, but these would largely be limited to fixed and rotary-winged lift aircraft, with some CAS/ground attack as well. The 'pointy' end in terms of aircraft would likely be in the form of Mi-24 helicopters and Su-25. By way of example, look how the Iraqi airforce has been getting reconstituted since ~2003.
It was a typo :)


There likely would be various manpads like Strela-2, FIM-43 Redeye, and Blowpipe, equipping some small unit formations, but these would be to provide the units they are attached to with a limited air defence capability. Similarly, there might be a few (surviving) examples of mobile SAM and/or SPAAG systems. Like any manpads in use, these would likely be of various types of autonomous ADS like Roland, Crotale, 9K35 Strela-10, and ZSU-23-4 Shilka. When such units are functional, they are able to provide the unit(s) they are attached to an organic ADS, but that are not capable of making any meaningful contribution to Turaqistan's IADS around the Emerald City.
Makes sense.

No problem with the questions, it is all background which can aide in the planning.
Turaqistan itself would be ~500,000 sq. km so roughly the size of Turkmenistan, population wise, Turaqistan has about 20 mil. people, comparable to Syria. Turaqistan itself is a land-locked Central/South Asian nation. It was not a member of the USSR and is therefore not a member of the CIS. It is a former member of the Non-Aligned Movement, and has in times past played the Eastern and Western blocs off against each other, and also been used as a proxy by both power blocs as well. Turaqistan has recently had a regime change, following an invasion by a non-bordering major power. By and large power had been handed back to Turaqistan, but there is still instability within the country, with some of the major cities having been devastated in the conflict, and still not under the control of troops affiliated with the central government. The bordering nations around Turaqistan have uneasy peace agreements with Turaqistan, with some being strongly suspected of aiding and supporting troops fighting against the central government.
So our country is ~Afghanistan, stabilized and post-NATO. What's the relationship with major regional players? Kazakhstan? Russia? China? I mean our relationship with Russia would have to be a love affair for them to deliver all of that on short notice. And of course that goes both ways, Russia would be quite appreciative for fat contracts signed by what at first glance is a western client state.

Some of the neighbouring nations have powerful air forces for the region, with upwards of 250 fast jet combat aircraft, a mixture of air superiority, multi-role and CAS/ground attack. Having said that though, the aircraft themselves are a mix of East and West, with F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Tigers, serving alongside MiG-21s, F-6 and F-7s, Mirage F1s, and the most modern aircraft being MiG-29B/UB's
Hmph. Mix of east-west is unlikely in this part of the world. Especially with respect to older fighters. Iran would be the exception, but then we're looking at the Middle East more so then Central Asia. By the figures you quote our likely culprits are Iran or Uzbekistan.

In short, the IADS around Emerald City is to (attempt) to guard/defend against a surprise attack by an erstwhile 'friendly' neighbour. As such, there would be very little chance of a warning being provided by another nation, since nations which could do so are the ones most likely to be launching the attack. Unfortunately due to the heavy toll fighting has taken on some of the outer cities within Turaqistan, as well as the general decline Turaqistan has suffered following the end of the Cold War, there is a distinct lack of functioning infrastructure within Turaqistan. A celluar/mobile phone transceiver network exists within the Emerald City (being a post-invasion installation) and is tied into the Turaqistani phone switch and trunk. Other areas within Turaqistan are intermittently connected to the phone switch via hardlines. As such, most communications between different areas under the control of the central government is via military radio. Apart from the approaches to Emerald City, the most reliable sensor to detect aircraft is the Mk 1 Eyeball.
So the only real early warning we can get is from OPs with radios. Which are likely to be jammed. Unpleasant.

As for the positions of the SAM systems themselves:
The actual radar systems are stationary. Yes, I know they are on mobile vehicles, but for what Turaqistan is using them for, static positions so that the radar's LOS can be plotted is most appropriate, at least until permanent ground radar stations can be built. The other vehicles which compose the ADS units, TELs, reloading vehicles, etc are always nearby the radar systems to receive the necessary target detection and guidance information. Having said that, they are regularly moved from one location to another, both to ensure that the various moving parts of the vehicles and systems function properly, but also to make it more difficult for the command and launch vehicles to be targeted in an attack. Most of the time, the various vehicles are going to be 'parked' in prepared positions, of which there would be sufficient prepared positions to each vehicle to have its own position as well as secondary and tertiary prepared positions. The only time of the vehicles would not be sited at a prepared position is if there was a inspection, maintenance on the vehicle, or the vehicle in question was being relocated to another prepared position.
So it's using S-300s radars as their general airspace control radars? Dire times indeed.

The above is absolutely true, the IADS I am envisioning for Turaqistan is something which might be used to repel an attack by an air arm of power comparable to that of Iran, or other similar regional powers.
I don't see anything in Iran's arsenal that could even tickle an S-300... granted I'm not the expert on all things Iran, so feel free to correct me.

Barring some serious mis-steps by the RuAF, I would not expect them to have any real trouble taking the IADS around the Emerald City apart.

-Cheers
Gear wise they might have all the necessary toys. However when it comes to actually doing it, the doctrine, the training, the concept of SEAD and DEAD as part of an air campaign, are all absent. The VVS couldn't effectively shut down Georgian Buks playing hide-n-seek. Why you think they'd all of a sudden be a lot more successful against Turaqistan, I'm not sure. Granted making the S-300s stationary in the operational-level sense does make it a much easier thing to do.

Are the Buks going to remain stationary also?
 

Todjaeger

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So our country is ~Afghanistan, stabilized and post-NATO. What's the relationship with major regional players? Kazakhstan? Russia? China? I mean our relationship with Russia would have to be a love affair for them to deliver all of that on short notice. And of course that goes both ways, Russia would be quite appreciative for fat contracts signed by what at first glance is a western client state.
In many respects, Turaqistan would be in a situation similar to parts of Afghanistan and Iraq. While it is nominally a western client state post invasion, it is a not entirely comfortable with being a client state of the West. Hence the diversification of kit, as well as some within Russia looking to sway Turaqistan more into the Russian sphere of influence. Something I would consider a possibility to both counterbalance western influence within Turaqistan, but also there would not be the reluctance (or at least as much) that Russia might have in getting involved with Afghanistan again.

Hmph. Mix of east-west is unlikely in this part of the world. Especially with respect to older fighters. Iran would be the exception, but then we're looking at the Middle East more so then Central Asia. By the figures you quote our likely culprits are Iran or Uzbekistan.
Actually a number of Mideast/Central Asian nations have a mix of East and West for kit. Pakistan, Iran, Iraq (prior to the US & Co. bouncing things again...) Egypt.

So the only real early warning we can get is from OPs with radios. Which are likely to be jammed. Unpleasant.
Not really, at the worse it would only hurt for a little while...:D

So it's using S-300s radars as their general airspace control radars? Dire times indeed.
Part of the reason for the interest in the S-300 is that the radar systems themselves should be 'powerful' enough to provide that capability, at least until a full network of primary radar arrays could be rebuilt and interconnected.

I don't see anything in Iran's arsenal that could even tickle an S-300... granted I'm not the expert on all things Iran, so feel free to correct me.
That is one of the things I intend to look into/go over. No so much whether Iran specifically could do so, but more the what and how of IADS delamination, with emphasis on GBAD elements.

Gear wise they might have all the necessary toys. However when it comes to actually doing it, the doctrine, the training, the concept of SEAD and DEAD as part of an air campaign, are all absent. The VVS couldn't effectively shut down Georgian Buks playing hide-n-seek. Why you think they'd all of a sudden be a lot more successful against Turaqistan, I'm not sure. Granted making the S-300s stationary in the operational-level sense does make it a much easier thing to do.

Are the Buks going to remain stationary also?
See above re: IADS delamination and rollback. The Buks themselves would not be precisely stationary. The battalion CP and targeting radar co-located at the airport would remain stationary. The three distributed batteries would have some mobility within their assigned local areas. However, they would need to stay fairly close to the node which they connect to for the IADS.

I would like people to let me know when they are 'satisfied' with the types and numbers of units for the IADS around the Emerald City, as well as their respective distributions. Once that has been set, then we can go over how such an arrangement could be picked (or torn, depending...) apart.

-Cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
In many respects, Turaqistan would be in a situation similar to parts of Afghanistan and Iraq. While it is nominally a western client state post invasion, it is a not entirely comfortable with being a client state of the West. Hence the diversification of kit, as well as some within Russia looking to sway Turaqistan more into the Russian sphere of influence. Something I would consider a possibility to both counterbalance western influence within Turaqistan, but also there would not be the reluctance (or at least as much) that Russia might have in getting involved with Afghanistan again.
Judging by recent Mi-17 deliveries, (not to mention all the AKs the MVD dumped there a few months back) and the involvement of the FSKN on the ground in joint operations with NATO to crack down on narco-traffick, Russia isn't as reluctant as it perhaps should be. But it's a point well made, Russia certainly won't be saving Turaqistan's ass in a shooting war.

Actually a number of Mideast/Central Asian nations have a mix of East and West for kit. Pakistan, Iran, Iraq (prior to the US & Co. bouncing things again...) Egypt.
That's all Middle East. Central Asia, at least in the way I've seen it defined, is the 5 ex-USSR CARs + Afghanistan. Equipment there is predominantly Soviet. It would be interesting to see how hard it would be for Pakistan to deal with this set up. They're not a western air force, but their kit is comparable to some second-tier western air forces.

Part of the reason for the interest in the S-300 is that the radar systems themselves should be 'powerful' enough to provide that capability, at least until a full network of primary radar arrays could be rebuilt and interconnected.
That would be effective against... Iran. Or Uzbekistan. Against anyone more impressive, I'd say they're not getting their money's worth. The S-300P series was designed for mobility, and that's a major advantage forgoing which their life expectancy would drop significantly. I'm also not sure what the wire-less comm ranges look like for individual vehicles for an S-300, so the idea of keeping each individual vehicle in the btln displacing between various locations might not be feasible, especially given the size of the unit, and the relatively small AO. I mean in ideal, the system would appear in one area, only after it has confirmation that the incoming strike package is inside its engagement envelope, take 1-3 shots in a rapid succession, then displace, with Tunguskas, or Shilkas (or worst case scenario, ZU-23-2s) providing cover against incoming missiles. The systems would then go cold, and remain mobile, possibly patrolling using backroads and non-repetitive patrol patterns, until it once again receives the light to go hot.

That is one of the things I intend to look into/go over. No so much whether Iran specifically could do so, but more the what and how of IADS delamination, with emphasis on GBAD elements.
Eagerly awaiting the next stage.

See above re: IADS delamination and rollback. The Buks themselves would not be precisely stationary. The battalion CP and targeting radar co-located at the airport would remain stationary. The three distributed batteries would have some mobility within their assigned local areas. However, they would need to stay fairly close to the node which they connect to for the IADS.
Well the Buks don't necessarily need the btln radar. They have their own, so the question is how much their survivability would be compromised by remaining within range of their btln CP, vs how much their combat effectiveness would be compromised by straying outside of btln CP range.

I would like people to let me know when they are 'satisfied' with the types and numbers of units for the IADS around the Emerald City, as well as their respective distributions. Once that has been set, then we can go over how such an arrangement could be picked (or torn, depending...) apart.
Looks fine to me. It's a small IADS to be honest. If they have older S-75, S-125 type systems, I would suggest spacing those out in a non-pattern scatter around the city (but not inside it) and using ambush tactics. They might not be terribly successful, but they could get lucky. And of course they're not entirely obsolete (only mostly :D) when dealing with say Iran and Uzbek Fencers... the Iraqi's managed to hit iirc a Tornado that way, with S-75s, in ODS.
 

Todjaeger

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Well the Buks don't necessarily need the btln radar. They have their own, so the question is how much their survivability would be compromised by remaining within range of their btln CP, vs how much their combat effectiveness would be compromised by straying outside of btln CP range.
The Buk battalion is broken up into three separate batteries, each staged a different location within the Emerald City, with each location also being a comms node for the IADS. One location is at the airport, which would be where the battalion CP and the targeting radar would be. The other two nodes are elsewhere within Emerald City, but they are all equidistant from each other. The Buks themselves have mobility within their assigned areas as long as they maintain a connection to their assigned nodes.

If the IADS network continues to expand and get updated, then the four sites around Emerald City where the S-300s are located would get replaced with radar ground stations. The S-300s would still be assigned to operate from those sites, but that would be within the vicinity of the site, instead of a semi-static position.

-Cheers
 

Todjaeger

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Okay, as it stands now, there are essentially nine sites which are important to the Turaqistan IADS around the Emerald City. Sites A and B are atop a high ridgeline (~1,000 m) running north-south ~10 km west of Emerald City. Sites C and D are located ~15 km northeast and southeast of the Emerald City respectively, in the foothills of a mountain which rises immediately to the east ~2 km from Emerald City.
Sites E through I are all located within Emerald City or its outskirts.

Topography north and south of the Emerald City consists of a series of rolling hills for ~50 km before climbing sharply into a series of worn mountains (to the north) or scrub plain (to the south). To the west, there are a series of high ridgelines, with deep and narrow valleys which run north-south parallel to valley containing the Emerald City. To the east, the foothills spread out for ~10 km before the start of a series of mountains and valleys.

Site A: Sensor, comms and ADS node
S-300PMU battery/battalion with the following units
64N6 surveillance radar
30N6-1 FCS radar
76N6 low altitude radar
12 TEL
Tunguska battery with the following units
6 2S6 Tunguska SPAAG/SAM
3 2F77 loaders
EDT hardlines to Site B, Site C and Site H

Site B: Sensor, comms and ADS node
S-300PMU battery/battalion with the following units
64N6 surveillance radar
30N6-1 FCS radar
76N6 low altitude radar
12 TEL
Tunguska battery with the following units
6 2S6 Tunguska SPAAG/SAM
3 2F77 loaders
EDT hardlines to Site A, Site D and Site H

Site C: Sensor, comms and ADS node
S-300PMU battery/battalion with the following units
64N6 surveillance radar
30N6-1 FCS radar
76N6 low altitude radar
12 TEL
Tunguska battery with the following units
6 2S6 Tunguska SPAAG/SAM
3 2F77 loaders
EDT hardlines to Site A, Site D and Site H

Site D: Sensor, comms and ADS node
S-300PMU battery/battalion with the following units
64N6 surveillance radar
30N6-1 FCS radar
76N6 low altitude radar
12 TEL
Tunguska battery with the following units
6 2S6 Tunguska SPAAG/SAM
3 2F77 loaders
EDT hardlines to Site B, Site C and Site H

Site E: Sensor, comms and ADS node, Airport
ATC radars
Buk-M1 battalion HQ with the following units
9S470M1 Command Post
Buk 9S18M1 surveillance/TAR
Buk-M1 battery with the following units
2 9A310M1 TELAR
2 9A39M1 TEL
EDT hardlines to Site F, Site G, Site H and Site I

Site F: Comms and ADS node
Buk-M1 battery with the following units
2 9A310M1 TELAR
2 9A39M1 TEL
EDT hardlines to Site E, Site G and Site H

Site G: Comms and ADS node
Buk-M1 battery with the following units
2 9A310M1 TELAR
2 9A39M1 TEL
EDT hardlines to Site E, Site F and Site H

Site H: Comms node
Turaqistani phone switch/exchange and trunkline
EDT hardlines to all Emerald City IADS sites

Site I: Command and comms node
Emerald City IADS HQ
radiolinks to Turaqistani forces around Emerald City and outlying areas
EDT hardlines to Site E and Site H

Now, force content and disposition has been laid out, as has general topography. Anything else which should be covered prior to examining the IADS, its strengths and defects in detail? Please note, I deliberately have not commented on operator proficiency (or lack thereof) at this time, as IMO that should be part of the discussion.

-Cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Looks good. Maybe split off 2 Tunguskas from each battery, to form two additional batteries of 4, to protect sites H and I? The systems could remain cold, and be used to take out incoming missiles, and even bombs.
 
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