Indonesian Aero News

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The different Flankers have many important differences and use different systems that don't carry over from one to another. Adding complexity and more parts to an aircraft that is already notoriously difficult to maintain. So while they may be similar, they are still operating 16 aircraft in 4 distinct variations which is just wasteful.

As for the difference between the F-16 A and C types... well it's big enough to warrant a new type indication. And you're wrong about the MLU, I know that the Dutch aircraft at least are not as capable as as block 52, and they weren't upgraded to the AN/APG-68. It is also well known that F-16C/D's are heavier and less maneuverable, at least that's what I've heard from pilot interviews.

As for the flight hours. It seemed strange to me that they could double the flight hours on airframes that are already pretty old. I know the Dutch F-16's had been more worn out than expected at the time of the MLU, and many aircraft where upgraded before they reached their original 5000 hrs. It just seemed like a lot is all :O
Thank you for your reply.

Well the problem is that we do not know really the details of TNI-AU's eMLU and Falcon-Star. Are only the wing-body fasteners replaced, or larger parts like the whole wing?

TNI-AU do not share any information (or just a little bit) about it, only videos and photos of the first official test flight.


==> OPSSG
So you expect that the F-16V is out of the race because of the difficult relationship between the US and defence minister Prabowo? You can be right.
But that means that we also can expect that heavy helicopters like the CH-47 or V-22 will not be ordered, unless Prabowo is forced to accept it because there are no much alternatives.

Anyway he recently visited India.
www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/india-indonesia-pledge-deepened-collaboration
Big chance that Bollywood-fanboys are now fantasizing about LCA Tejasses armed with BrahMos missiles, but i do not expect Indonesia will get the BrahMos.
India finished last year the development of the air-launched variant BrahMos-A, weighing 2550 kg, for usage with the Su-30MKI.

But i dont know if Indonesia's Su-30MK2 can be easily modified for the Brahmos like the 30MKI, so ive my doubt about it.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
What Jokowi needs is influential, technocratic “arms” which he can rely on to push through his policies. A cabinet with Prabowo inside is not aimed at creating a more technocratic and professional defence ministry – a feature that is starkly missing in Jokowi’s first term. As much as Indonesians wish for a capable and credible Jokowi Administration in relation to defence — unfortunately, I don’t see that happening any time soon with people like Prabowo in charge of such a key ministry. He is smart and politically astute but he is smart for the wrong reasons.
==> OPSSG
So you expect that the F-16V is out of the race because of the difficult relationship between the US and defence minister Prabowo? You can be right.
But that means that we also can expect that heavy helicopters like the CH-47 or V-22 will not be ordered, unless Prabowo is forced to accept it because there are no much alternatives.
Prabowo is really trying to develop options on a project the Americans won. Not sure if he will succeed. He has already delayed it by trying to develop options, irrespective of TNI AU wishes.

I suspect that Bell and others have their own methods to make sure they are heard — a point that Ananda made in detail on the need to grow the industrial base and in broad strokes, I agree. But Lockheed Martin does not have the same level of local industrial base clout in Indonesia — which makes the proposed F-16V sale hanging by a thread.

But the American lobby in Indonesia is not to be underestimated. We will have to wait and see who wins.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
And while the current regime in Indonesia seems keen on involving local industry, as illustrated by the discussion above, I have not seen any plans presented that warrant the investment needed.
For Aerospace I agree on that. As my post in Indonesian Army thread, there're more concrete sustain plan and projects for Land Equipment and Ships that justified more Investment even from Private sectors for local manufacturing.

Indonesia involvement in Aerospace has clearer goals and path honestly under Soeharto's. Habibie plan for license production of Hawk 200 supposedly going to provide sustain projects for IPTN (DI now) and build experience and expertise needed for Fighters manufacturing, weapons and systems integration. Something that PAL and PINDAD have and continue being support on that, while DI still lack behind.

I'm not going to say that there's no problem in PAL and PINDAD. The submarine project continuation being reviewed at this moment. However the Investment for Submarine manufacturing facilities already implemented and so far they are working on complete overhaul and modifications for Indonesia first 209, after they're finishing the assembly on the 3rd DSME 209. MinDef need to decide on next submarine project soon whether continue PAL partneship with DSME or other partner. If not after the Overhaul projects finish next year, PAL submarine facilities will not have projects for their sustainment.

Still PAL continue projects is more secure than DI ones. As both PINDAD and PAL that continue getting on going Defense projects, this also trickles downs to private automotive and shipyards getting some projects from defense Industry.

While on Aerospace the strategy on how to sustain Local Aerospace company (in singular not plural as no other local company playing in aerospace supply chain), is that continue changes as if the administration still not have firm idea on this.


Prabowo now is figuratively strutting around Europe, and saying screw that implied arrangement with the Americans.
I'm not quite sure that Prabowo's will abandoned US on Defense projects. This talk on MV-22 shown that contacts with US manufacturer still happening. Prabowo's seems going around Europe, Turkey, India, Russia and not US for defense projects cooperation, however his deputy seems the ones that talking to US sources. He's the one that flount the idea for F-35 as Su-35 substitute if Indonesia ditch Rosoboron.

Prabowo's deputy is part of Jokowi's inner circle, thus his movement is without Political back up.
For me, I'm bit watching right now on what will come out eventually. Jokowi's already put publicly that any Defense procurement has to involve local industry. Thus the way I see it seem MinDef (whether Prabowo's or his Deputy) now throwing around inquiries and see whose going to give more preferable options.

Add:
As I've mentioned before on previous post, Indonesia always bit worries with US under Democrats. Throughout Indonesian history, JFK and Obama administrations are two Democrats that are "friendlier' to Indonesia in similar condition to Republican administrations.

Many foreign analysts put Santa Cruz incident as turning point on US policies toward Indonesia on East Timor. However even after that incident, Bush Sr administration still talking with Indonesia to acquired some Pakistan F-16 that being hold. Only after Clinton take over then the talk on F-16 being freeze which prompted Soeharto to begin negotiations with Russia for Su-30.

Bush Jr begin the process of 'reconciliation' with Indonesia especially after SBY elected (seems the US not comfortable with Soekarno's daughter). Obama's personal relationship with Indonesia perhaps make him friendlier Democrats towards Indonesia, and despite Trump erratics behavior, many in Indonesia administration bit relief he's the one that win the election and not another Clinton.

Thus this MV-22 deal according to some colleagues of mine also being seen by some Indonesian Officials to see how the Democrats behavior toward Indonesia right now. There's no denial that some support for Papua Independent still exists on some NGO's that close to Democrats political constituents.

Thus perhaps this also going to influence some what on Indonesian Defense procurement on US assets. Trump clearly says that he can talk anything on Indonesian Defense procurement as long as it help reduce US trade deficit with Indonesia. The Indonesian Officials now try to see if Biden will do the same, and put some hope on that as he's Obama's VP but also still cautious as he's Democrats after all.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Prabowo's seems going around Europe, Turkey, India, Russia and not US for defense projects cooperation, however his deputy seems the ones that talking to US sources. He's the one that flount the idea for F-35 as Su-35 substitute if Indonesia ditch Rosoboron.

Prabowo's deputy is part of Jokowi's inner circle, thus his movement is without Political back up.

For me, I'm bit watching right now on what will come out eventually. Jokowi's already put publicly that any Defense procurement has to involve local industry. Thus the way I see it seem MinDef (whether Prabowo's or his Deputy) now throwing around inquiries and see whose going to give more preferable response.
I respect your superior knowledge on the inner workings of the Jokowi administration and thank you for teaching me to read the back room scene in Indonesia better.

If only the Deputy Defense Minister Wahyu Sakti Trenggono (former Jokowi-Ma’ruf Amin’s campaign team treasurer), was the No. 1 guy, I would have confidence that TNI AU will get what they requested for. But with him as No 2, things will still work — giving me hope that a fighting core can built around the F-16V and the block 50/52 fleet — my concern is more about TNI AU’s number than type of aircraft. Selection of the single engine F-16V will enable the TNI AU to have a larger fleet (due to lower operating costs compared to the twin engined Eurofighter Typhoon).

Once the TNI AU have a strong core, the question becomes what type of specialist pods, like the DB-110 reconnaissance pod or ALQ-184 electronic countermeasure pod, will be carried by this Indonesian fleet to enhance Indonesian AirPower. Taiwan had also sought to upgrade its existing Raytheon AN/ALQ-184 pods to incorporate Digital Radio Frequency Memory technology for its F-16s.

IMO, the more professional the TNI AU becomes, the safer it becomes for Singapore in relation to regional security. For the sake of regional security, I hope that the RAAF, the RSAF and TNI AU can grow closer over time.
 
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Ahmad

Active Member
Thank you for your reply.

Well the problem is that we do not know really the details of TNI-AU's eMLU and Falcon-Star. Are only the wing-body fasteners replaced, or larger parts like the whole wing?

TNI-AU do not share any information (or just a little bit) about it, only videos and photos of the first official test flight.
Here some photos during MLU and upgrade Indonesian F 16 A/B in Madiun, East Java

1596016358586.png
1596016382567.png1596016448953.png
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
If only the Deputy Defense Minister Wahyu Sakti Trenggono (former Jokowi-Ma’ruf Amin’s campaign team treasurer), was the No. 1 guy, I would have confidence that TNI AU will get what they requested for. But with him as No 2, things will still work — giving me hope that a fighting core can built around the F-16V and the block 50/52 fleet — my concern is more about TNI AU’s number than type of aircraft. Selection of the single engine F-16V will enable the TNI AU to have a larger fleet (due to lower operating costs compared to the twin engined Eurofighter Typhoon).
Got this picture on local social media, on Prabowo's Deputy coming to Iswahyudi AB to check progress on F-16 A/B Falcon Star MLU. Eventough TNI-AU not give overall package of the MLU to the public, The rumours said it's similar in scope with Thailand MLU on their A/B.

Point I'm going to say is that while Prabowo's give signal on Euro's acquisition on Fighters, Wahyu besides talking on F-35 before, also shown with F-16 projects. The back lining in here seems shown Wahyu supporting more F-16 projects later on.

Thus, Indonesian administration from Soeharto era even from Soekarno's era was and is not escaping from eratics behavior on procurement. However those eratics always has geopolitical reasoning behind that.

I think at this moment even Indonesian local analysts are in guessing what actually MinDef and this administration aiming for.
For me, I still say they are testing the waters.
TNI-AU in my opinion still on preference with F-16. What this Rafale, or Eurofighter talk perhaps more on the alternative for Su-35 or even KFX projects.
That's my personal opinion from what I read on several bit of actions coming out including some seems seremonials occasion like those in the photos.

Soeharto's administration vision for TNI-AU in the 90's is for 3-4 sq of F-16 as Multi-role and 4-5 sq of Hawk 200 as LCA, with IPTN got license manufacturing for Hawk 200 and MRO capabilities for F-16. Those vision actually quite balance for TNI-AU postures, too bad after Soeharto's fall, the political circumstances internally and externally put TNI-AU on roller coaster of procurement decision making.

TNI AU actually already from two years ago put signal for more F-16 for the main Multi-role and their back bone.
Flankers and this Su-35, or Rafale or Eurofighter in my opinion is more on what Politics dictate and not what TNI-AU wants.

Seems they are now lobbying behind the curtain on continuation of F-16 projects. The international analyst talking on eratics Indonesian procurement of Fighters with several fighters in inventory but each with small population. Well I see the potential TNI-AU saying to MinDef, "you can add a Sq of another 'exotics' Fighter, as long as you give me more F-16". Cause in the end the back bone for TNI-AU for near future still F-16.
 

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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Got this picture on local social media, on Prabowo's Deputy coming to Iswahyudi AB to check progress on F-16 A/B Falcon Star MLU. Eventough TNI-AU not give overall package of the MLU to the public, The rumours said it's similar in scope with Thailand MLU on their A/B.

Point I'm going to say is that while Prabowo's give signal on Euro's acquisition on Fighters, Wahyu besides talking on F-35 before, also shown with F-16 projects. The back lining in here seems shown Wahyu supporting more F-16 projects later on.

Thus, Indonesian administration from Soeharto era even from Soekarno's era was and is not escaping from eratics behavior on procurement. However those eratics always has geopolitical reasoning behind that.

I think at this moment even Indonesian local analysts are in guessing what actually MinDef and this administration aiming for.
For me, I still say they are testing the waters.
TNI-AU in my opinion still on preference with F-16. What this Rafale, or Eurofighter talk perhaps more on the alternative for Su-35 or even KFX projects.
That's my personal opinion from what I read on several bit of actions coming out including some seems seremonials occasion like those in the photos.

Soeharto's administration vision for TNI-AU in the 90's is for 3-4 sq of F-16 as Multi-role and 4-5 sq of Hawk 200 as LCA, with IPTN got license manufacturing for Hawk 200 and MRO capabilities for F-16. Those vision actually quite balance for TNI-AU postures, too bad after Soeharto's fall, the political circumstances internally and externally put TNI-AU on roller coaster of procurement decision making.

TNI AU actually already from two years ago put signal for more F-16 for the main Multi-role and their back bone.
Flankers and this Su-35, or Rafale or Eurofighter in my opinion is more on what Politics dictate and not what TNI-AU wants.

Seems they are now lobbying behind the curtain on continuation of F-16 projects. The international analyst talking on eratics Indonesian procurement of Fighters with several fighters in inventory but each with small population. Well I see the potential TNI-AU saying to MinDef, "you can add a Sq of another 'exotics' Fighter, as long as you give me more F-16". Cause in the end the back bone for TNI-AU for near future still F-16.
Thats an AN/AAQ-33 Sniper targeting pod, right?

Btw, last month (June 2020) Lithuana received the NASAMS battery which were ordered in oktober 2017. In the same month, 31 oktober 2017 Indonesia also ordered one complete NASAMS. Any news or information about the status/developments of the acquisition?

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
This seems to be the place in Teluk Naga for the future NASAMS installations.
So the edges of the road are painted white in order to make it more easier for foreign armed forces to target TNI-AU's NASAMS installations?
 

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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This seems to be the place in Teluk Naga for the future NASAMS installations.
So the edges of the road are painted white in order to make it more easier for foreign armed forces to target TNI-AU's NASAMS installations?
Militaries like things to look spot on. In British Commonwealth forces white washing of rocks or the painting of kerbs white is a favourite passion. Many of us who have been on the naughty boys parade have had the dubious pleasure of painting said rocks and kerbs as part of our punishment. :)
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
When I got chances went to some Indonesian Military complex, they also painting whites on some of the roads side. Something they took from Dutch Indies Army (NICA) practices. After all, many of Indonesian Armed Forces bases are inherited from NICA especially in Java and Sumatra.

Back to Sandi's picture, well it doesn't make difference much this days of satellites imaging times. If China want to pacified Indonesian Air Defense, they will based on satellites positioning to launch SEAD. Besides anti radiation Missile lock in potential radar and electronics signatures to cue in.

It all depends on the defensive establishment to counter that. All those white paintings just to look good. In real condition the defenders will be more Mobile anyway.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
It seems that the Kodiak has been replaced by a Grob G 120TP as chase-aircraft. Although the N219 prototypes already have flown for more than 330 hours, the first prototype is back in Bandara Nusawiru to add some more hours.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
I think I read somewhere on local media that Senegal order another one besides the two they already ordered. Forgot from where.
 

tonnyc

Active Member
Senegal got two used CN-235 from the defunct Merpati Airlines. That's their first and second CN-235. One of these was later sold to Guinea, but I don't know which.

Senegal ordered one CN-235 in 2014. That's delivered 2017. That's Senegal's third CN-235 but that's the first time Senegal ordered the CN-235 from PTDI.

Senegal ordered another CN-235 in 2018. That's the one whose photos you saw. That's the fourth CN-235 Senegal bought but the second CN-235 PTDI sold to Senegal.

A negotiation for another CN-235, this time in MPA configuration, was in the works. This would have been the third that PTDI sold to Senegal BUT this has been quietly postponed due to COVID-19. I don't expect this to be resumed until next year. Possibly later depending on Senegal's economy.
 
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Ahmad

Active Member
Senegal got two used CN-235 from the defunct Merpati Airlines. That's their first and second CN-235. One of these was later sold to Guinea, but I don't know which.

Senegal ordered one CN-235 in 2014. That's delivered 2017. That's Senegal's third CN-235 but that's the first time Senegal ordered the CN-235 from PTDI.

Senegal ordered another CN-235 in 2018. That's the one whose photos you saw. That's the fourth CN-235 Senegal bought but the second CN-235 PTDI sold to Senegal.

A negotiation for another CN-235, this time in MPA configuration, was in the works. This would have been the third that PTDI sold to Senegal BUT this has been quietly postponed due to COVID-19. I don't expect this to be resumed until next year. Possibly later depending on Senegal's economy.
This second CN 235 for Senegal Air Force look like MPA version if you see the belly of the airplane. Navy has already submitted their need to get another 4 CN 235 MPA. And currently according to Alman Helvas twitter, there is another CN 235 being constructed for Indonesian Armed Force.

1596539594268.png
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

Seems like somebody in here like to put Alman Helvas tweet, so I post his latest tweet on Indonesian and French cooperation, as an example.

This tweet already created lot off speculation on Indonesian forums that this means Rafale, Gowind, Scorpene.

For me, PAL and Naval group already have signed intent for cooperation for couple of years and still no development of Gowind or Scorpene.
For Rafale, again Airbus also doing their lobby and so does LM on giving some projects to DI if procurement goes to Eurofighters or F-16V.

This is one example of rumours going around. I'm not saying that Indonesia will not goes to French as this Alman Helvas tweet.
Heck, I already post sometimes ago that going French could be political middle ground for factions that want to go with US and those want to go with Russian.

Still everything in Indonesia will not be settled by signing something. It will be settle if the payment already make, the production already run, and the asset already come.
Look at Su-35, the contract already sign, but it can be hold on payment technicalities. On the ground of not meeting counter trade deals. ;)
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Seems like somebody in here like to put Alman Helvas tweet, so I post his latest tweet on Indonesian and French cooperation, as an example.

This tweet already created lot off speculation on Indonesian forums that this means Rafale, Gowind, Scorpene.

For me, PAL and Naval group already have signed intent for cooperation for couple of years and still no development of Gowind or Scorpene.
For Rafale, again Airbus also doing their lobby and so does LM on giving some projects to DI if procurement goes to Eurofighters or F-16V.

This is one example of rumours going around. I'm not saying that Indonesia will not goes to French as this Alman Helvas tweet.
Heck, I already post sometimes ago that going French could be political middle ground for factions that want to go with US and those want to go with Russian.

Still everything in Indonesia will not be settled by signing something. It will be settle if the payment already make, the production already run, and the asset already come.
Look at Su-35, the contract already sign, but it can be hold on payment technicalities. On the ground of not meeting counter trade deals. ;)
So this means that minister Prabowo is back in France?

Anyway, im agree with you. This is just a Letter of Intent to increase cooperation in general, nothing more than that.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
this means that minister Prabowo is back in France?

US Defence Secretary Esper just have a phone talk with Parabowo's. They are planning to have one on one meeting soon. SCS will be big in the Agenda, and so does how US will support Indonesian Military development.

Well, just another example of Defense diplomacy works..
US have a big push to Indonesia to balance the trade deficit for one thing.. that's already being put by Trump himself.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
It has been in August and so far only Army who have gotten some big acquisition contracts.

Talking about PTDI, I hope they can score another profit this year after getting some profit last year, while big aerospace companies like Boeing and Airbus who produce many civilian planes has suffered badly from this economic crisis.
 
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