Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

@Sturm
I believe I've put comment on some of my old post that TNI-AU is quite happy with Flanker performance. Thus the interview is not something new. The skuadron 11 will get 6 more flankers thus made the flankers on full 16 fighter force.

The problem now, which the Air Force chief has said on different interview, and so did his predecesor, on operational basis TNI-AU like F-16 more due to lower operational cost.

@haavarla
The mindef already say that the 6 additional flanker will be the last flanker order until 2014. Thus more flanker will be discussed if any by new administration. The budget right now up until 2014 already allocated for upgrading those 24 ex USAF F-16 (to block 50 capabilities according to them), and possibly also upgrading 10 existing F-16. There are also contract just signed in London for upgrading existing Hawk 200 fleet.

I do believe Tni-AU will try to maintain fleet of mix F-16 and Flanker as their main fighter on 1:2 ratio. F-16 will be mostly stationed on western part, whille flanker on eastern part. With flanker better operational range, Tni-AU seems hoping flanker can cover eastern part with less aircraft then compared to F-16.

 

[STURM]

Thus the interview is not something new.

There were other interesting snippets like how the Defence Attache in Canberra only received the request about 5 weeks earlier which left 11 Squadron with little time to prepare, the type of sorties flown, etc.

 

[Ananda]

PT. CMI Moving another stage on the effort producing Long Range Aerial Radar locally.

From ASD News :
LM and PT CMI Teknologi Complete Radar Production Readiness Review

Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] and Indonesian technology firm PT CMI Teknologi (CMI) recently completed a production readiness review that qualifies CMI to begin in-country manufacturing for the TPS-77 and FPS-117 long-range surveillance radars.

Lockheed Martin and CMI are jointly pursuing the National Airspace Surveillance – Republic of Indonesia (NASRI) program, with the intent to produce more than 20 new radars to improve airspace surveillance, safety, and management over the Indonesian Archipelago in support of the government’s defense revitalization initiative.

Previously I have posted that Three Global firm have join with Three local firm in bidding Long Range Aerial Radar in Indonesia with the local firm will conduct final assembly and some manufacturing process locally. The pair is CMI with Lockheed Martin (AN/TPS-77), Inti with Northorp-Grumman (AN/TPS-78), and LEN with Thales-Raytheon System (Marter-T).

NASRI it self is a program that plan not only for full coverage of Indonesian Air Space Ground surveillance system, but also an integrated system that can combine 32 plan Military specs Long Range Aerial Radar with other layers of surveillance system.

 

[Ananda]

From Jane's:Lockheed Martin looks to upgrade Indonesian F-16 radars, supply surveillance systems

Lockheed Martin is aiming to increase its defence market share in Indonesia by securing deals to upgrade the country's F-16A/B fighter aircraft and supply long-range surveillance radars.

The US-headquartered company said it is proposing to undertake the programmes in collaboration with Indonesian firms PT Dirgantara and PT CMI Teknologi (CMI) as a mark of its commitment to engage with the local defence industry, said James Gribbon, Asia-Pacific regional president for Lockheed Martin at the Indo Defence Expo & Forum.

This is (at least for me) the first International confirmation that TNI also looking on Upgrade packages for their existing 10 F-16 A/B Block 15+. With LM already working upgrading 24 ex USAF F-16 C/D Block 25 for TNI-AU, it's for me logical if LM also got an upper hand for upgrading project of existing 10 F-16 A/B.

 

[ADMk2]

From Jane's:Lockheed Martin looks to upgrade Indonesian F-16 radars, supply surveillance systems



This is (at least for me) the first International confirmation that TNI also looking on Upgrade packages for their existing 10 F-16 A/B Block 15+. With LM already working upgrading 24 ex USAF F-16 C/D Block 25 for TNI-AU, it's for me logical if LM also got an upper hand for upgrading project of existing 10 F-16 A/B.

So do you prefer the Raytheon RACR AESA radar (developed from the F-15's APG-63v3 AESA and Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA)

Raytheon Company - RACR Is Mission Ready - YouTube

Or Northrop Grumman's SABR radar (developed from the F-22's APG-77 and F-35's APG-81...)

SABR AESA Radar for the F-16 - YouTube

Either way, good choices are available...

 

[Ananda]

So do you prefer the Raytheon RACR AESA radar (developed from the F-15's APG-63v3 AESA and Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA)

Raytheon Company - RACR Is Mission Ready - YouTube

Or Northrop Grumman's SABR radar (developed from the F-22's APG-77 and F-35's APG-81...)

SABR AESA Radar for the F-16 - YouTube

Either way, good choices are available...

Not sure, if they (TNI-AU) and Mindef at this moment looking for AESA yet. After all the upgrade for 24 ex USAF Block 25 is aiming to have electronics and sensors up to early block 50+ standard (non AESA). Thus this upgrade project for the existing Block 15+ I believe will be aimed at similar packages.

Personally I'm prefer Raytheon packages. Seems more inline upgrading older F-16 frame (which Indonesian Mindef) aiming for. Some rumors and talk in local forum and Media indicating that US already offering possible additional packages of older F-16 airframe (outside the existing upgrade of 24 airframe).

Unconfirmed report indicating that Mindef actually already preparing budget for full sq of new F-16 Block 52. Half of the budget (or eq of 8 Block 52) already being allocated for getting those 24 block 25 upgrade to Block 52 standard. If they can get similar deal from US, seems there's possibility they (Mindef) aimed for.

Seems getting possible 48 second hand but fully upgrade airframes more tempting than 16 newly build airframe for Indonesian Mindef.

 

[Vivendi]

I found this in another forum:

JAKARTA. Fredrik Reinfeldt and his business delegation to sell Swedish products and companies in Southeast Asia.

Among other things, the Jas Gripen to Indonesia.

- We believe that there may be an interesting future market, says Lars Tossman, head of global markets at Saab.

It seems this was google translated from the following link:

Jagar Jasägare i Jakarta | Nyheter | Aftonbladet

I guess the chances for Indonesia going for Gripen is very small, given that they already operate F-16, it would make more sense for them to get more F-16s instead of introducing a different type of euqipment!

What do people think about this?

 

[Ananda]

I guess the chances for Indonesia going for Gripen is very small, given that they already operate F-16, it would make more sense for them to get more F-16s instead of introducing a different type of euqipment!

What do people think about this?

Yes, I agree is very small. However some manufacturers still hoping since Mindef has not closed the potential deal for F-5E/F replacement. Air Force unofficially hinted that the upgraded F-16 C/D aimed for a new squadron possibly in Northern Sumatra. While the balance will augment existing F-16 block 15 OCU, that will be further upgraded with strong possibility at simmilar standard with the upgraded ex USAF ones.

Still related which possible replacement for F-5, based on current trend and info that come from Indodefence and other occasions, I believe:
1. Get additional F-16 airframe to be upgraded,
2. Upgrade existing F-5 to be operational up to 2020+

Thus little room for possible Grippen deal. However no harm for SAAB to try

 

[AndiPandi]

Well, if Thailand choosed Gripen over F-16 (which they already operated) why can't Indonesia?

 

[Ananda]

Well, if Thailand choosed Gripen over F-16 (which they already operated) why can't Indonesia?

No, Thailand choose Gripen over F-5, not over F-16. That's what I believe SAAB hoping from Indonesia, another F-5 replacement program which Gripen hope to win.

However for the case of Indonesia, just like I posted before, more likely upgraded F-16 or even upgraded F-5 program turn out to be the replacement program for current F-5 inventory.

 

[AndiPandi]

No, Thailand choose Gripen over F-5, not over F-16. That's what I believe SAAB hoping from Indonesia, another F-5 replacement program which Gripen hope to win.

However for the case of Indonesia, just like I posted before, more likely upgraded F-16 or even upgraded F-5 program turn out to be the replacement program for current F-5 inventory.

No, they choosed to replace F-5 with Gripen. F-16 & Gripen was offered and they picked Gripen, so they actually choosed Gripen over F-16, that is what the words mean...

Anyway, SAAB mentioned a few weeks ago that they seen some strong interest in the far east, maybey its Indonesia they are talking about ("more east of Thailand" they said)...

An F-16 upgrade is one possibility, but is it worth the money? How many hours are left in thoose aircrafts?

 

[Ananda]

No, they choosed to replace F-5 with Gripen. F-16 & Gripen was offered and they picked Gripen, so they actually choosed Gripen over F-16, that is what the word mean

Anyway, SAAB mentioned a few weeks ago that they seen some strong interest in the far east, maybey its Indonesia they are talking about.
L
An F-16 upgrade is one possibility, but is it worth the money? How many hours are left in thoose aircrafts?

Ok, I thought you mean that Thailand choose Grippen to replace F-16. I still say that the chances of Grippen being in Indonesian AF inventory is small.

When RTAF choose grippen, then they have Grippen, F-16, and Alpha Jet in the inventory. However if TNI-AU choose Grippen then they will have to maintain four different kind of fighter. It will put much strain in the operational budget.

We have talk the merit of upgrade airframes in this forum on several thread. The upgrade will modified the airframes (practically rebuild them), and will give the Airframes another 4000 - 6000 hours, or potentially 10-15 years more on active operational service. And don't forget the upgrade will bring the avionics and electronics up dated.

Besides TNI-AU sees them as interim sollution until KFX come after 2020. Eventhough KFX did not come to fruition, TNI-AU and Mindef seems believe, by at least 2018 there will be enough budget to get whatever new development available in the market.

So as interim sollution, getting those upgrade airframes will be worthwhille, and possibly provide two or three times more airframes then getting entirelly new ones.

Despite the increase on defence budget, however TNI-AU had a lot of dreams. They want to increase the number of Fighter sq from curent 7 to 10, they want to have 32 long range ground radars from current 18, they want to build area/theater long range SAM capsbilities, they want to build AEW capabilities, they want to build network centric environment, and the list goes on.

Thus they have to made some compromise. I believe getting upgraded F-16 airframes is still a good compromises.

 

[Vivendi]

It's Gripen not "Grippen"

 

[Gadjah Mada]

No, they choosed to replace F-5 with Gripen. F-16 & Gripen was offered and they picked Gripen, so they actually choosed Gripen over F-16, that is what the words mean...

Anyway, SAAB mentioned a few weeks ago that they seen some strong interest in the far east, maybey its Indonesia they are talking about ("more east of Thailand" they said)...

An F-16 upgrade is one possibility, but is it worth the money? How many hours are left in thoose aircrafts?

May be Malaysian MRCA programme is more realistic than anything to do with TNI AU.

No even slight talk about Gripen in Indonesia. There were rumors on Su-35, Typhoon and Rafale for F-5 replacement though. Even also issue that South Korea and Taiwan will donate their F-5 to TNI-AU.

I also agree with Ananda.
I am not sure if Gripen will be advantageous for Indonesia in both short term or long term. Not for the TNI AU and absolutely not for PTDI. Second hand F-16 is very good for short term, while in long term K/I-FX programme. Both Thailand and Malaysia do not have aircraft industry like PTDI and seems have no ambition to go for that in a foreseeable future. Only an aircraft support the K/I-FX programme -or any of its derivatives since it could go anywhere- could have a chance in the future.

And since the democratic era, Indonesian military procurement is much more transparent. So until the new president from 2014 on, I think it is impossible TNI AU would acquire Gripen. Not at all.

 

[Ananda]

It's Gripen not "Grippen"

Ha,ha, just realise that. Slip of mind, I believe. In previous post before that I already wrote gripen, and sliping to grippen after that.

Well there are also some talk in Philipine forum that PAF also looking on Gripen, as follow on steps after they acquaire LIFT. However it will be much in long run, right now I do agree with Gadjah Mada that Malaysia will be more likely candidate for gripen then Indonesia. However I got a feeling that they (RMAF) will more inclined with Shornet or Typhoon.

If US did not provide second hand but fully upgrade F-16, and yes gripen can be an attractive candidates. However just like I already put in the early of this thread, TNI-AU simply love F-16. This based on several interview from various TNI-AU brass in media on several occasions in several years period. They constantly indicated positive and satisfied remarks with F-16. When you in love with one fighter and have the opportunity to get more airframes on that particullar type, then chances they will do that as their main priority.

Upgrade program like the one being done to those 24 ex USAF, based on some readings on upgrade programs like this, practically can give you 80%-90% capabilities of brand new fighter with cost less than 40% of new procurement. That's why, even USAF also doing it.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A couple of days ago a Banshee target drone was found in our waters. Although the Banshee 400 is a Reconnaissance version UAV, i expect the found one is just a 'normal target drone edition'
What type of target drones do we use?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Not sure, if they (TNI-AU) and Mindef at this moment looking for AESA yet. After all the upgrade for 24 ex USAF Block 25 is aiming to have electronics and sensors up to early block 50+ standard (non AESA). Thus this upgrade project for the existing Block 15+ I believe will be aimed at similar packages.

Personally I'm prefer Raytheon packages. Seems more inline upgrading older F-16 frame (which Indonesian Mindef) aiming for. Some rumors and talk in local forum and Media indicating that US already offering possible additional packages of older F-16 airframe (outside the existing upgrade of 24 airframe).

Unconfirmed report indicating that Mindef actually already preparing budget for full sq of new F-16 Block 52. Half of the budget (or eq of 8 Block 52) already being allocated for getting those 24 block 25 upgrade to Block 52 standard. If they can get similar deal from US, seems there's possibility they (Mindef) aimed for.

Seems getting possible 48 second hand but fully upgrade airframes more tempting than 16 newly build airframe for Indonesian Mindef.

As far as i know, those 24 F-16C/Ds Block 25 will be upgraded to Block 32, and not 52.

Still related which possible replacement for F-5, based on current trend and info that come from Indodefence and other occasions, I believe:
1. Get additional F-16 airframe to be upgraded,
2. Upgrade existing F-5 to be operational up to 2020+

Its remarkable that they do not consider the KAI T-50 as a F-5 replacement.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Last week, the first C-130H-30 lands on Tarakan for the exercise at the 13th this month.
Pictures from the exercise i will post later.

 

[Ananda]

As far as i know, those 24 F-16C/Ds Block 25 will be upgraded to Block 32, and not 52.

Its remarkable that they do not consider the KAI T-50 as a F-5 replacement.

That's the initial plan. That's why initially they prepared budget USD 460+ mio. However after some politician in parliament bitching about that upgrade program, then they ask more budget (USD 750+ mio), in order to satisfied the parliament demand for F-16 upgrade to include block 50+ capabilities.

The parliament bitching because initially the budget planed for 8 new F-16 block 52. They don't care that the same budget now will get 24 upgrade F-16. So the compromise from what I heard and read and various sources is; upgrade program with electronics and sensors up to block 50+ standard. While the airframe upgraded to block 32, since there's limitation on block 25 airframes to be upgraded to block 50+ airframes.

For T-50 as F-5 replacement, well KAI it self did not plan T-50 (or TA-50) as F-5 replacement. They prepared F-50 design (upgraded TA-50 with singgle seat variance) for that. Since now KAI move to KFX, the design as my understanding relegated to back up position in case the current KFX design does not make it.

 

[Alvin-Jr]

I hope the chances of TNI-AU adding new types of combat/training jets is zero. No typhoons, no gripens, no migs, etc. I think in the year 2020++ TNI-AU combat and training jets should be like this:

- all F-16 will be replaced by IFX/KFX ( assuming the project is successful )
- all F-5 will be replaced by a minimum of one additional Sukhoi sqd
- all Hawks will be replaced by more sqd of Korean T-50 and TA-50

So, in the year 2020+ TNI-AU will only have 3 types of combat and training jets to operate and maintain compare to 5 types presently. The Americans like to say " Lean and Mean " and I like those words. But if the top brass of TNI-AU don't understand those words then they will procure more types of fighters. If that happens, then TNI-AU will turn out to be a big fat turkey with useless wings instead of being a fearsome eagle in the region.