Indonesian Aero News

[Bonza]

Is this correct?

From Defence News:

Korea Decision on Attack Helicopters Nearing | Defense News | defensenews.com

This works out to $177 million per helicopter!
Even with spares & weapons loadout that seems to be a ridiculous price.

At a guess, you could get 4x Mi-28's with a decent weapons setup for the same price - might not have quite all the bells & whistles of the Apache, but will do the same job 98% of the time..

Road Runner's right. You can't just divide the cost by the number of platforms being purchased. You need to know what else is included in the deal. That's why Australia paid 6.6 billion dollars for 24 Super Hornets. There's a great deal more included in that than just the price of the platform.

 

[Feanor]

Road Runner's right. You can't just divide the cost by the number of platforms being purchased. You need to know what else is included in the deal. That's why Australia paid 6.6 billion dollars for 24 Super Hornets. There's a great deal more included in that than just the price of the platform.

That's still awfully expensive. There has to be something huge included with the helos, to justify those costs. I'm not familiar with the Apache. What could be included in that deal, to justify those costs?

 

[PHySlCz]

In the Future they will have a Strong Force there !

 

[Ananda]

3 Candidates for TNI-AD Attack Helicopter

This is the statement from Indonesian Army Chief General Pramono Edhie Wibowo on the Apache offer from US during the sessions with Indonesian Parliament Armed Committee:

Pemerintah Timbang Beli Apache, Super Cobra, atau Black Hawk - KOMPAS.com

Some being translated with Google Translate:

Edhie added, Apache became the first priority of his party. According to him, there have been discussions with the U.S. about the price. However, the price offered varies from Rp 25 million per unit, and $ 30 million dollars per unit.

Later, added Edhie, Apache prices back up. He did not mention how much the last price. Finally, it was looking for helicopters comparison, the Super Cobras. Information received, he said, the price offered is 15 million U.S. dollars per unit.

In short, if they can't get an agreement with Boeing on the overall costs of the package, Bell already waiting with AH-1Z Super Cobra. Bell move can't be discounted, since they already have longer relationship with IAe (PT. DI) and TNI. Interestingly he stated the cost for Apache is varies between USD 25 mio - USD 30 mio, which I believe related to the costs of the Airframe and not included the overall packages.

In short Bell offering Super Cobra at the half of the cost of Apache. Can be tempted for TNI considering their long term experiences with Bell Helicopter. Armed versions of S-70 Blackhawk is also being considered although as third priorities.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

That's still awfully expensive. There has to be something huge included with the helos, to justify those costs. I'm not familiar with the Apache. What could be included in that deal, to justify those costs?

Indeed, $1.420.000.000 for 8 choppers 140 AGM-114Rs, some engines and training is a waste of money.
BTW, how many Mi-17s and Mi-35Ps do we now have?

 

[Ananda]

Indeed, $1.420.000.000 for 8 choppers 140 AGM-114Rs, some engines and training is a waste of money.
BTW, how many Mi-17s and Mi-35Ps do we now have?

My calculation is 12 Mi-17V and 5 Mi-35P. The Army once told media, they plan overall 16 Mi-17V and 8 Mi-35P. However whether the full number will be meet, we'll have to be seen. From what I gather, the Army quite satisfied with the performance of Mi-17V, however rather disappointed with Mi-35P. Some info on local forum indicated that some Army users think Mi-35P is too noisy and less agile for COIN operations (which for TNI is more important than anti armor).

Well, we do not know the exact detail on the Apache contract offer. Sometimes the contract can be higher than producers disclosed price due to amount of support they will give. That's why the option for Super Cobra and S-70 still on the table as alternative.

 

[STURM]

In short Bell offering Super Cobra at the half of the cost of Apache. Can be tempted for TNI considering their long term experiences with Bell Helicopter.

Some years ago, I was told by a Bell salesman at an exhibition that a main advantage the Super Cobra has over most other types is that it is fully marinised. I would imagine that given Indonsia's geography, joint service operations involving TNI-AD attack helicopters operating from the decks of TNI-AL vessels is something that planners would have already factored in. There was something in last month's Air Forces Monthly about the British army taking steps to marinise its Apaches.

It's interesting you mentioning that theTNI-AD is not very happy with its Hinds, I wonder how much of this could possibly be due to maintainance or product support, rather than technical issues

 

[Ananda]

It's interesting you mentioning that theTNI-AD is not very happy with its Hinds, I wonder how much of this could possibly be due to maintainance or product support, rather than technical issues

I'm not getting much info on that, but bits from various sources. However, from what I got mostly related to the performance and specifications. So. it's technical. However it's not the matter that Hind is a bad Helicopter, but more the specifications and performance not really what TNI wants on a gunship on tropical environment.

Seems TNI hoping for an agile and quite silent Gunship that can loiter above COIN target for some time, and pop-out with surprise ambush. From what I gather from TNI users, they feel Hind did not give much of that. Some even say, the Armed BO-105 can perform better on the area that matter to them.

So even t he plan procurement for Mi-35 is 8, some sources suggest the rest 3 Mi-35 is under considerations to be switched for more MI-17V.

However Mi-35 do have supporters among TNI brass.

 

[ADMk2]

Some years ago, I was told by a Bell salesman at an exhibition that a main advantage the Super Cobra has over most other types is that it is fully marinised. I would imagine that given Indonsia's geography, joint service operations involving TNI-AD attack helicopters operating from the decks of TNI-AL vessels is something that planners would have already factored in. There was something in last month's Air Forces Monthly about the British army taking steps to marinise its Apaches.

It's interesting you mentioning that theTNI-AD is not very happy with its Hinds, I wonder how much of this could possibly be due to maintainance or product support, rather than technical issues

The UK's WAH-64 Apaches came fully marinised from day one, so it's an option if you want it. They are and have been very successfully operated from HMS Ocean and other RN ships.

 

[STURM]

Ananda,

Came across this link which has the ORBAT of AURI in the 1960's. Have you seen this before, not sure how acurate it is though. What's surprising is that despite it's close ties to the Soviet Union during that period, an the influx of Soviet arms, AURI did not adopt the Soviet Air Force regiment structure but maintained the squadron structure. The Guidelines were organised into squadrons rather than regiments.

Indonesian Special Forces: Kekuatan Udara Indonesia tahun 60-an

 

[Ananda]

Ananda,

Came across this link which has the ORBAT of AURI in the 1960's. Have you seen this before, not sure how acurate it is though. What's surprising is that despite it's close ties to the Soviet Union during that period, an the influx of Soviet arms, AURI did not adopt the Soviet Air Force regiment structure but maintained the squadron structure. The Guidelines were organised into squadrons rather than regiments.

Indonesian Special Forces: Kekuatan Udara Indonesia tahun 60-an

Seems the data is quite accurate comparing from what I've seen from various sources including Air Force museum in Jogjakarta.

The TNI-AU (AURI at that time) in the 60's might used mostly Eastern Block equipment, however do not forget the embryo of Indonesian Air Force being build and trained by the West (mostly by Dutch and US). Thus the way of thinking even in the 60's actually still more influenced by their Western education in the 50's.

AURI for instances try to use Mig-21 as patrol force, rather than point defense. It's in my opinion more influenced from their Western education then Eastern one, which dictate Mig-21 as point defense interceptor, rather than a patrolling fighter.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

My calculation is 12 Mi-17V and 5 Mi-35P. The Army once told media, they plan overall 16 Mi-17V and 8 Mi-35P. However whether the full number will be meet, we'll have to be seen. From what I gather, the Army quite satisfied with the performance of Mi-17V, however rather disappointed with Mi-35P. Some info on local forum indicated that some Army users think Mi-35P is too noisy and less agile for COIN operations (which for TNI is more important than anti armor).

Well, we do not know the exact detail on the Apache contract offer. Sometimes the contract can be higher than producers disclosed price due to amount of support they will give. That's why the option for Super Cobra and S-70 still on the table as alternative.

Thanks Ananda.
Is there a reason for the choice of US-made only?

 

[STURM]

AURI for instances try to use Mig-21 as patrol force, rather than point defense. It's in my opinion more influenced from their Western education then Eastern one, which dictate Mig-21 as point defense interceptor, rather than a patrolling fighter.

It could have been due to circumstances rather than adoption of a western doctrine. During that period, the only other jets AURI had were MiG-17s, which was a training platform. As you know, ex-RAAF and Ex-RMAF Sabres later replaced the Mig-21s.

 

[Ananda]

It could have been due to circumstances rather than adoption of a western doctrine. During that period, the only other jets AURI had were MiG-17s, which was a training platform. As you know, ex-RAAF and Ex-RMAF Sabres later replaced the Mig-21s.

Circumstances can be a factor. However the doctrine in my mind more a factor on this. AURI is not taking all western doctrine, but rather taking what work for their situation from each training/doctrine they had whether it's western or eastern block.

AURI also operated Mig-19. Mig 17 and Mig 15 were the most numerous ones, and the most easier Mig to maintain. That's why it last until early 70's or early years of Soeharto regime. Australian made Avon engined Sabre (whether ex RAAF or RMAF), together with T-33 were to replace Mig-17. Later on in the 80's Sabre and T-33 being replaced by A-4. Despite it's a trainer, T-33 mostly being used as fighter, while the jet training in the 70's still being done with L-29 (which become the longest operational eastern block jets in AURI/TNI-AU inventory), until being replaced by Hawk Mk 53.

Mig-21 won't be replaced until the induction of F-5E/F in the early 80's. Some ex Indonesian Mig-21 become some of the first Mig-21 in USAF hand by end of the 60's. Despite the official reason by Soeharto regime that the Mig-21 mostly become non operational due to embargo, however actually large part of AURI Mig-21 still in flyable conditions. Soeharto retired them, as part of deal he made with US for their support in his early years in power. US want AURI to retire their Supersonic (Mig-21) and Bomber capabilities (TU-16 and IL-28), while they did not mind with AURI/TNI-AU maintain the capabilities on Mig-17 class (thus why they with Australian then support Sabre and T-33). By that time (early 70's) actually the USSR still willing to support those Mig, If Soeharto just ask them.

While most of Mig-19 being sold to Pakistan (at least according to unofficial info from Air Force historian in here). Mig-19 has the most unsatisfying record under AURI operation. Don't know why to be exact, however AURI seems can't find in their situation in the 60's liking Mig-19 as much they did with Mig-17 and Mig-21.

 

[Ananda]

A Hawk 200 of TNI-AU Pekanbaru Sq crashed this morning near residential area. No casualties in the ground, and the Pilot safely ejected. Early finding indicated mechanical failure.
Hawk crash due to mechanical failure: Air Force | The Jakarta Post

The Indonesian Air Force chief of staff Air Marshall Imam Sufaat believes human error was not a factor in the crash of the Hawk 200 fighter jet in Riau on Tuesday.

“I, personally, believe that it was not human error. Most likely, it was due to mechanical failure, because the pilot ejected. If a pilot ejects, he or she must have felt something wrong [with the aircraft] that led to an emergency situation,” Imam told the press at the Presidential Office on Tuesday.

The British-made Hawk 200 jet crashed in Pasir Putih in Kampar, Riau, during a routine training mission, according to an official.

The pilot, Second Lt. Reza Yori Prasetyo, ejected and made a safe landing as the aircraft went down.

The ill-fated fighter jet was among the Air Force’s two squadrons of Hawk 200s and was bought in 1994.

Following the crash, Imam said that the remaining aircraft in the squadrons had been grounded until the investigation into the incident was completed.

According my calculation, This is the 8th Hawk 100/200 (of total 40 procured), that meet fatal accident, and subsequently write off. Will try to get confirmation from other sources.

For one thing, according to unofficial sources, of all TNI-AU Fighters in the current inventory, Hawk 100/200 are the most usable one. Despite the higher number of Accident compared to F-16 and F-5, TNI-AU still considered Hawk 100/200 as reliable assets.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A Hawk 200 of TNI-AU Pekanbaru Sq crashed this morning near residential area. No casualties in the ground, and the Pilot safely ejected. Early finding indicated mechanical failure.
Hawk crash due to mechanical failure: Air Force | The Jakarta Post



According my calculation, This is the 8th Hawk 100/200 (of total 40 procured), that meet fatal accident, and subsequently write off. Will try to get confirmation from other sources.

For one thing, according to unofficial sources, of all TNI-AU Fighters in the current inventory, Hawk 100/200 are the most usable one. Despite the higher number of Accident compared to F-16 and F-5, TNI-AU still considered Hawk 100/200 as reliable assets.

Indeed the Hawk Mk100/200 are the most often used fighter, maybe not only because we had more Hawks (20 Mk53, 8 Mk109 and 32 Mk209) than any other fighterjet, but i think also they were cheaper in operation and maintenance than the F-16, F-5 and Su-27/30.
How about our neighbours? They had 10 Mk108 and 18 Mk208. Did the also often fall out of the sky?

Here a picture i made begin this year at Pekanbaru, TT-0213 and TT-0214.

 

[STURM]

How about our neighbours? They had 10 Mk108 and 18 Mk208. Did the also often fall out of the sky?

During the first few years of service, the RMAFs Hawks had a very high attrition rate, particularly the 100s. This was due to a number of factors - higher than planned utilisation rates, spares shortages, a shortage of support personnel, human error and problems with avionics caused by high humidity levels. BAE Systems, the Defence Export Services Organisation and the RMAF held talks to in the late 1990's overcome the problems caused by humidity and made some modifications. A couple of years ago, a contract was placed with Rolls Royce to overhaul the Adour engines and with BAE Systems for a spares package. The TNI-AUs Hawk 100s and 200s are similar to the RMAFs, the only or main difference being the RMAF Hawk 100s have a FLIR.

 

[Ananda]

Apache Procurement delayed

From Indonesian Parliament Journal (Jurnal Parlemen):
http://jurnalparlemen.com/news/2012/11/pembelian-helikopter-apache-dari-as-ditunda-

Basically the Article stated that even though the green light for Indonesian Army to procured AH-64D Longbow already being given by US Administrations and Senate (which according to the article confirmed by Senator Dick Lugar during his visit to Indonesian Parliament recently), however the Army due to budgetary constraint will delay the procurement from 2013 budget to 2014 budget.

This in my opinion show at least two thing:
1. The Army still adamant on getting Apache,
2. They did not want to considered alternative, even though this means they have to delay the procurement process for at least 1 year.

The delay due to the fact that The Army 2013 budget already fully allocated to other project. Thus to make room for AH-64D, they have to deferred it to 2014 budget. This will happen, unless the Army got additional fund outside regular 2013 budget for AH-64D procurement.

 

[Haavarla]

So how does it look on more Flankers import?
Surly they could use a few more..

 

[STURM]

Ananda,

Did you see the interview with 11 Squadron's CO in Air Forces Monthly? IMO it was a very revealing and interesting interview. Of course it depends on the politicans but reading the interview, it seems 11 Squadron is very happy with its Flankers and wants a few more - unlike the RMAF which doesn't want anymore unless it really has no choice.

What a remarkable coincidence that both the RMAF and TNI-AU Flankers are operated by 11 squadron . I think it'll be just a matter of time before we see RMAF and TNI-AU Flankers participating in Ex-Elang Malindo.