Indonesia: 'green water navy'
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
PAL owns the design of the Makassar Class LPDs, for years they have invested in training and facilities, and they are now also the only one in Indonesia with the expertise and experience of building LPDs. So it is unlikely PAL will just give away the blueprints and all knowledge/IP. It is like demanding that IPTN give away the licence of the NC-212 to another company.
I agree with Sandhi Yudha there. Another thing to consider is that there just isn't that big a market for LPDs. As far as I can tell the Indonesian Navy already got as many LPDs as they want. There might be one more order, maybe, to replace the oldest, but that one is still working fine, so it's more likely they'll just keep using it. WIth no more domestic order, only the export market is left, and there just isn't many. Maybe Philippines will add another ship, maybe Malaysia will buy a couple too, but that's about it.
With only a few potential order, a private shipyard would rather focus on something else. Patrol craft is more promising, since the Indonesian Navy needs dozens of them still over the next couple decade and will continue needing them as older patrol crafts get retired.
With only a few potential order, a private shipyard would rather focus on something else. Patrol craft is more promising, since the Indonesian Navy needs dozens of them still over the next couple decade and will continue needing them as older patrol crafts get retired.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
If PAL can handle the work load then it is alright to take all the job at PAL. However there're indications PAL already over stretch. There are no need in going to be giving IP of the Makasar class LPD to other yards. They simply outsource the job, and there's precedents on this at other state owned yard.
Bintuni class LST design is owned by Dok Kodja Bahari (DKB), but because they have productivity problem, then the design being outsource to other Yards to be build most of it. DKB LST has hull number 518 and 519, thus supposedly launch first before Bintuni that now become lead ship of the class. However because production problem, it is launch much letter on then the LST from private yards.
This is the point that I like to make, PAL or other state owned yard like DKB has histories of over streched thus delay on the project. Question is not just whether there will be more order for Makasar class LPD in future, however can PAL new projects still being manage with overall ambitious project load. PAL should be more realistic on their own capacities.
Bintuni class LST design is owned by Dok Kodja Bahari (DKB), but because they have productivity problem, then the design being outsource to other Yards to be build most of it. DKB LST has hull number 518 and 519, thus supposedly launch first before Bintuni that now become lead ship of the class. However because production problem, it is launch much letter on then the LST from private yards.
This is the point that I like to make, PAL or other state owned yard like DKB has histories of over streched thus delay on the project. Question is not just whether there will be more order for Makasar class LPD in future, however can PAL new projects still being manage with overall ambitious project load. PAL should be more realistic on their own capacities.
This is the sea based launched for the Cakir SSM which is a box. More likely Atmaca.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Already in Indonesia water near Sunda Strait. I wonder if KRI Brawijaya will goes directly to Surabaya or stoping first in Jakarta. If the ship stop over first in Jakarta, means some brass in MinDef and TNI HQ want to inspect.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
First Indonesian PPA ship arrives in the country - Naval News First Indonesian PPA ship arrives in the country - Naval News
At this moment KRI Brawijaya has stop over in Lampung Naval Base, before go to Jakarta for ceremonial acceptance and then to Surabaya as the home base for official induction to 2nd Fleet. Both PPA and Both FMP as TNI-AL biggest Frigates are expecting to be part of 2nd Fleet.
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Entering Lampung Naval Base
At this moment KRI Brawijaya has stop over in Lampung Naval Base, before go to Jakarta for ceremonial acceptance and then to Surabaya as the home base for official induction to 2nd Fleet. Both PPA and Both FMP as TNI-AL biggest Frigates are expecting to be part of 2nd Fleet.
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Entering Lampung Naval Base
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
North Sea Boats as manufacturer, put video on KSR X33 operational concept. In summary:
- The concept of X33 is Hybrid between crewed and uncrewed.
- It is working in team at minimum of 3 as part of swarms missile attack on choke points. 3 X33 also being planned to be board LPD as mother ship.
- With small diameters it is hoping to blend with commercial small vessels.
- North Sea/Lundin Boats still hoping to get Kongsberg SSM as main equipment.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
From Keris FB
Personally I also have interest with Lampung Naval Base. This is relatively new Naval Base, and it is shown it can handle at least two large frigate or two LPD. Thus this stop over before goes to Jakarta, seems also want to shown the base. The base actually being build to support Marines training and base nearby.
Personally I also have interest with Lampung Naval Base. This is relatively new Naval Base, and it is shown it can handle at least two large frigate or two LPD. Thus this stop over before goes to Jakarta, seems also want to shown the base. The base actually being build to support Marines training and base nearby.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
This one is from the airforce.... sad news, Indonesia doesn't have many of these CN235-220 MPAs. It looks like a collapsed landing gear to me.
Well, the good news is that everyone survived.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Keris FB got Tanjung Priok Jakarta Harbour CCTV shoot on KRI Brawijaya docking at the berth. This is commercial side of the Harbour, not the part of Jakarta Naval Base. The area is much bigger, and I suspect being choose as:
- They are going to conduct some ceremonial activities, thus need bigger area.
- The berth in Naval section are crowded or not comfortable to receive the ship in this size. Previously all visiting relative bigger Naval ship also being put in this area.
Perhaps this is perhaps also one of reason why KRI Brawijaya stop over in Lampung Naval Base as it is Big and Deep enough to handle Large Frigate like it. TNI-AL for so long being prepares to handles Corvette/Light Frigate size surface combatant.
Adjustment on facility in my opinion need to be done. Jakarta Naval Base use to be able handling KRI Irian and It's Skorys Destroyers escort. Perhaps they are too crowded now for larger vessels. This is my opinion as I see larger vessels visitors usually being put in the Terminal Area by Jakarta Naval Base.
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Longer, but slimmer. Much lower displacement: about half the tonnage.
So not bigger, but would need a longer quay or dock.
Seems like the Aster VLS are actually installed - but the Aster 30 missiles itself are FFBNW? In the end - the Navy will end up w 3 VL SAMs then - VL Mica, Aster and Hisar?
What about the gun ammo? DART and Volcano rounds come w the boat - or no? The 5 in is an interesting choice - would be the heaviest naval artillery in the current arsenal.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Here several videos of the arrival of the PPA Thaon di Revel class ship KRI Brawijaya (320).
Ananda
The Bunker Group
At the acceptance ceremony, TNI-AL chief confirm the next stage upgrade is to equip the PPA's for full capabilities on Anti Surface, Anti Submarine, Anti Air, and Anti EW. On present set the sensors already available, just need to add missiles and AEW equipments.
Thanks for the correction, yes it is longer but on full load Makasar class LPD and Green Rover class Arun still heavier.
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This is video on Pondok Dayung Naval Base, at Tanjung Priok harbour. Can be seen why KRI Brawijaya being berth at Tanjung Priok container harbour which have long container cargo ship standard dock.
This is related to question how to improve infrastucture of bases, if TNI-AL have ambition to have larger combatants.
About larger combatant:
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TNI AL Berupaya Akuisisi Kapal Induk Italia untuk Perkuat Armada Laut
TNI AL berencana akuisisi kapal induk ITS Giuseppe Garibaldi dari Italia untuk memperkuat armada laut.
nasional.kompas.com
TNI-AL Chief on the same occasion also told media they are still in negotiation with Italy to procure Garibaldi. Fincantieri ask $400+ mio for Garibaldi with structural and system update. From what I heard, Indonesia ask $80-100 mio less.
There are already negative talk in Indonesia for 40 years old light carrier procurement. I suspect this why MinDef and Navy talk in media the purpose for non combatant operation of this Light Carrier will be significant for Indonesia archipelago envirinment.
If being procure TNI-AL will put Bayraktar TB-3 and Bell 412 as air wing components.
If Sylver VLS being retained, as rumours there're marketing lobby effort to change it to Midlas VLS so with argument of commonality toward FMP and Istiff VLS and Hisar SAM. Personally I found it remote, thus in my opinion it is still going to be Sylver VLS with Aster. But yes the VL SAM at TNI-AL inventory potentially will be MICA, Aster 30 and Hisar.
However seems on SSM, Leonardo already sign agreement with Roketsan at last IndoDefense. So big probability the SSM will use Atmaca instead Teseo.
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Just realise @Sandhi Yudha already put video on KRI Brawijaya arrival at Tanjung Priok container berth.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
What we can see now is that TNI-AL has problems with handling large vessels like the new KRI Brawijaya 320. At least three more heavy frigates will be added to the fleet. And then there are plans to buy an old aircraft carrier....so it is very clear that there TNI-AL needs to expand its naval bases.
Surabaya and Lampung seems to be large enough, for now, but as Ananda already said, Tanjung Priok needs to be expanded also. In the next years also two new Scorpènes will join the fleet, and some years ago a second submarine base was built by expanding the naval base at Palu. Sadly the base seems to be only capable of accepting one submarine.
[Virtual Tour] Lanal Palu: Mengintip Basis Terbaru Kapal Selam TNI AL
In this website link we also can see that intelligence gathering at this strategic and important navalbase is extremely easy, this requires several steps like buying the ground surrounding the base and to construct a fully covering shelter for the submarine.
The navalbase of Sorong (LANTAMAL XIV), is recently expanded, and if the waters are deep enough, it should be able to receive a large frigate. I believe Indonesia should invest in larger bases and better infrastructure first, before thinking about adding an aircraft carrier to the fleet.
Surabaya and Lampung seems to be large enough, for now, but as Ananda already said, Tanjung Priok needs to be expanded also. In the next years also two new Scorpènes will join the fleet, and some years ago a second submarine base was built by expanding the naval base at Palu. Sadly the base seems to be only capable of accepting one submarine.
[Virtual Tour] Lanal Palu: Mengintip Basis Terbaru Kapal Selam TNI AL
In this website link we also can see that intelligence gathering at this strategic and important navalbase is extremely easy, this requires several steps like buying the ground surrounding the base and to construct a fully covering shelter for the submarine.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
2.1K views · 32 reactions | Di balik pembangunan dan pemeliharaan kapal selam, PT PAL memiliki fasilitas produksi kapal selam selengkap ini. Seluruh proses dikerjakan oleh anak bangsa. Mau bukti? Tonton videonya sampai habis dan tulis di kolom komentar untuk menyemangati engineer anak bangsa | PT PAL Indonesia
Di balik pembangunan dan pemeliharaan kapal selam, PT PAL memiliki fasilitas produksi kapal selam selengkap ini. Seluruh proses dikerjakan oleh anak bangsa. Mau bukti? Tonton videonya sampai habis...
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PAL FB video on its Submarine facility. It is PR video to shown development of their Submarine facility. Even though not directly mention, it is clear show case for their upcoming Scorpene project with NG. After sending welders to be trained by NG, they are now making public show case their facility readiness.
As long as Political support for Drone Carrier still strong, I sense it will going to be procure one way or another. Afterall they already make contract with Bayraktar for TB-3 drones, and Turkiye already shown it can be operated effectively from Anadolu LHD. Prabowo also want to have that capability.
I like the money to be use for additional Frigate even light ones. However if they can bring Italian side to agree with the prices, it still better to take refurbished older light carrier, then building new ones. Use that for a decade at least, then let TNI-AL learn how to operate ones. Will see if they can operate well or become another harbour queen like the Thai's one.
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After tsunami, they seems scrap Palu Submarine base. Consider too risky as large naval base. Palu's bay have good location and enough natural depth. However from what I heard also have geographical shape that enhance waves size in the case of natural disaster.
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