Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Fasilitas hanggar kapal selam yang dimiliki PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) memiliki kapasitas produksi kapal selam secara bersamaan sebanyak 4 kapal selam jenis scorpene (atau sejenis) dan 2 kapal selam jenis midget berukuran 30 meter.
I saw their FB page couple days ago. I'm bit reluctant to put it here, cause I have serious doubt about the accuracy of that statement. Sometimes our SOE companies PR people has tendency to bit hype on their statement.

Why I'm doubting their statement, cause the facilities build with the consultancy help from DSME on one thing. Even DSME existing one does not have the capabilities to build 4 Submarine in 'pararel' ways. That kind of statement already making hype in some local forums, especialy from those milenials kids that has not seen how ship yard really work in their live.

Most yard even in the class of Fincantieri Marriete Marine that just enlarge their capacity for building USN new Constitution class Frigate, tell the media that their facilities has capabilities for 7 "serial" constructions and not "pararel" constructions. There's big difference on doing 'series' of production (as most Ship Yards doing) and claiming of 'pararel' production as PAL PR team claim. The word of 'secara bersamaan' reflect to Parrarel proses.

Doing in serial production is common way been done by many shipyards. I have seen some of yards in Batam (that basically more productive then SOE yards like PAL), during my days as Corporate Bankers some years ago. Most of yards doing serial production, as it is more efficient then parrarel productions. It's basically in principe have similar concept of rolling production line like in Car Assembly plant.

Thus I have doubt on PAL claim on parrarel production capabilities either in Frigate or Submarine as being claim by their PR people recently. Serial prodictions is more the likelihood.

Anyway, this is what I talk on money trails. When talking of ambitions to build local submarine manufacturing capabilities, there's information (before) and implementation (now) on further Investment for that. There's also Investment in land equipment in Pindad. However no Investment commitment of that kind for supporting manufacturing facilities for Fighter program.

With this, present administrations and whoever win in next ellections already being 'hold' by political cost to utilise the facilities that being Invest. Like DI (or IPTN previoulsy), even though most of the investment being done in Soeharto era, most subsequent administrations have political costs to utilise DI. That does not mean they will have to Invest more in DI (as example), but they have to (politically) utilised existing facilities.

Let's see how the Submarine project progressing. In the way, they are going to have shown (politically) how to utilise it.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I saw their FB page couple days ago. I'm bit reluctant to put it here, cause I have serious doubt about the accuracy of that statement. Sometimes our SOE companies PR people has tendency to bit hype on their statement.

Why I'm doubting their statement, cause the facilities build with the consultancy help from DSME on one thing. Even DSME existing one does not have the capabilities to build 4 Submarine in 'pararel' ways. That kind of statement already making hype in some local forums, especialy from those milenials kids that has not seen how ship yard really work in their live.

Most yard even in the class of Fincantieri Marriete Marine that just enlarge their capacity for building USN new Constitution class Frigate, tell the media that their facilities has capabilities for 7 "serial" constructions and not "pararel" constructions. There's big difference on doing 'series' of production (as most Ship Yards doing) and claiming of 'pararel' production as PAL PR team claim. The word of 'secara bersamaan' reflect to Parrarel proses.

Doing in serial production is common way been done by many shipyards. I have seen some of yards in Batam (that basically more productive then SOE yards like PAL), during my days as Corporate Bankers some years ago. Most of yards doing serial production, as it is more efficient then parrarel productions. It's basically in principe have similar concept of rolling production line like in Car Assembly plant.

Thus I have doubt on PAL claim on parrarel production capabilities either in Frigate or Submarine as being claim by their PR people recently. Serial prodictions is more the likelihood.

Anyway, this is what I talk on money trails. When talking of ambitions to build local submarine manufacturing capabilities, there's information (before) and implementation (now) on further Investment for that. There's also Investment in land equipment in Pindad. However no Investment commitment of that kind for supporting manufacturing facilities for Fighter program.

With this, present administrations and whoever win in next ellections already being 'hold' by political cost to utilise the facilities that being Invest. Like DI (or IPTN previoulsy), even though most of the investment being done in Soeharto era, most subsequent administrations have political costs to utilise DI. That does not mean they will have to Invest more in DI (as example), but they have to (politically) utilised existing facilities.

Let's see how the Submarine project progressing. In the way, they are going to have shown (politically) how to utilise it.
Your view and explanation make sense. With serial production your have in fact a continuous flow of activity/work pressure over a long period. In this period the production will likely become more efficiently and cost effective, because of knowledge and experience collected during this period.
During a parallel production you start with a quite sudden massive activity, working on the second and third vessel while actually still learning, before you are even finished with the first one.

But with "parallel production " they can maybe also mean constructing some components for multiple vessels at once, without directly having three boats in final assembly stage.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
In this period the production will likely become more efficiently and cost effective, because of knowledge and experience collected during this period.
Yes, Banks have tendency to finance Shipyards that shown capabilities on having more efficient production lines. One yard that I went years ago, used to have facilities capable on handling 2 pararel production line. However they change the process for serial/continues production line, and they shown able to finish 3 even plan to 4 ships at the same time they used to finish 2 ships parallel ways.

More importantly they do it without having to enlarge their facilities area. Changes More on production layout, change their method and some Investment on heavy lifting cranes. Banks don't like to see manufacturing facilities that invest more on enlarging production area, instead prefer financing those who improve manufacturing process line within similar original area.

Anyway back to PAL Submarine plan:


PAL CEO talk with media to have a Submarine fully production within PAL by 5 years. This's actually if I look back on their previous plan with DSME for the 2nd batch is still in line.

I Believe have put the slide of their plan sometimes ago in this thread. Forget where. However I believe they plan to have the fourth Submarine (first of 2nd batch), to be finalise in DSME. They build 2 modules, and DSME 4 modules. The fifth will be opposite one with they build 4 modules, 2 modules from DSME, and final assembly in PAL. While the Sixth will be fully build in PAL. Time table wise seems in line with what PAL CEO stated above with media.

Is this means that second batch with DSME will still be the next PAL Submarine Projects ? For me, seems indication shown that way. However I could be wrong. After all Naval Group and TKMS, rumours also offer similar time table.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
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Some Local forum and FB page (this one from Kris) already put photos of First Steel Cutting ceremony for OPV 90 in DRU yards in Lampung. Well it's good thing that more Naval ships being outsource to other yards asside PAL or other SOE ones.

The design still shown the similarities with the model being test in Hydrodynamic pool before. It's more in line with a Corvette then OPV, from quick look on that.

Add from Indonesian official MinDef site:

 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
|" Pelaksanaan kegiatan First Steel Cutting Kapal Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) dan OPV 90 meter dilakukan dengan tetap menerapkan protokol kesehatan, sebagai upaya mencegah penyebaran Covid-19."|
1. The names/classification given to the two vessels is just weird. "KOPV" and "OPV 90": like KOPV has not a length, and OPV 90 is not a kapal.
2. It makes me sick that in almost every news article, every report, every announcement, during every event, they have to talk about Covid-19 and Protokol Kesehatan. That obsessive behaviour is just disturbing, and make people more stressed, annoyed and "Covid-moe".


The OPV 90 version on the spanduk has a very small and cramped helicopter platform.
In this article we can see a more clear image of the OPV 90 vessel, with much better proportions than on the spanduk/banner.

It is unclear how the "KOPV" version looks like, but its described as without helicopter facilities. It's also unclear what the specifications will be and with what kind of systems it will be equipped. The two vessels will be delivered in FFBNW-configuration and hopefully these vessels will be decently armed in the near future, but the OPV 90 has the potential to become a good replacement for the Parchim class of corvettes.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

DRU facility in Lampung is their biggest. However this company involved in Coruption Scandal (at least their CEO) related to patrol boats order from Indonesian Custom (Bea Cukai). So far their performance on doing LST projects seems shown timely production schedulle.

This is basically the largest armed combatant naval vessels project being given to Shipyard outside PAL. Source in MinDef officialy talk on PAL to focus on more sophisticated Naval projects. Also MinDef as the link on my previous post talk to diversfied Naval projects to other shipyards, in order to give more yards better experience on Naval Standard manufacturing. Let's see how their OPV project result will be.
 
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tonnyc

Well-Known Member
The procurement of two different types of OPV from Daya Radar Utama (DRU) confused me because as far as I can tell the two types are identical. But I think what happened is that there are two different designs. Both designs are for a 90 meter offshore patrol vessel, using the same engines, same sensor suites, and same defense systems. One of the design comes from DRU. The other we don't know about, but the most likely guess is PAL. The reason I said PAL is because if it's some other shipyard, they'd have asked to build their design themselves. PAL on the other hand is busy with other naval projects and thus less likely to object if someone else build their design. Also, being state-owned, all their IP belongs to the state anyway and thus the state could license it to anyone they like without having to pay extra. Thus I think the other design is PAL's.

Early last year the Indonesian Navy solicited proposals for OPV (I'd link to Jane but Jane's article has long been moved into their paid archive). It seems that the proposals have solidified into two designs and rather than choosing one, the navy just ordered both. Since they will have the same systems this should only slightly reduce commonality.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Japan still serious, and seems still far from out on getting deals for defense items contracts with Indonesia. Indonesia will be suitable launching pad customer, for Japan Maritime defense items.

After COVID, Indonesia budget will be in stressed condition to provide financing for all the items that MinDef and TNI aspire. Japan with their soft financing and Investment packages can be very attractive. Like I said many times within this thread, don't underestimate Japan abilities to cut other suppliers in Indonesia.

No wonder Twitter guy twitt getting snippy lately.
 

Arji

Active Member
After COVID, Indonesia budget will be in stressed condition to provide financing for all the items that MinDef and TNI aspire. Japan with their soft financing and Investment packages can be very attractive. Like I said many times within this thread, don't underestimate Japan abilities to cut other suppliers in Indonesia.
Maybe, I don't fully understand this. Isn't the financing Japanese offer is also loans? No different than the other military procurement, right? If the decision to take on debt is weighed with the expected growth in the future, then how is the Japanese ones any better? Is it simply softer interest rate?

In any case, I feel like TNI AL is not so interested in ships outside of European models, with the exception of South Korean maybe...
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Maybe, I don't fully understand this. Isn't the financing Japanese offer is also loans? No different than the other military procurement, right? If the decision to take on debt is weighed with the expected growth in the future, then how is the Japanese ones any better? Is it simply softer interest rate?
Lower interest and longer tenure are usually how Japan provide better financing term. However usually Japan provide combo packages of financing and Investment. The Investment not always related to same area with the financing.

Japan can provide combo packages of financing in defense items, with Investment in other sector for one thing. I can't say this's the package they're going to offer, since defense financing is new game for Japan. However on other projects, they often used this kind of approach, so it's highly probable they can offer similar deals.

One thing for sure, Japan can provide better financing costs compared to European creditors. That's already happen on other area where European creditors losing out with Japanese ones.

So there're other factors that I believe play in here, asside technical preference from TNI. F-16 has most technical preference from TNI-AU, for example. However doesn't means the next batch of Fighters will still be from F-16 family. To be sure we can only guess on what TNI think on Japanese defense items, because before it's out of reach. Japan only begin entering defense export market recently.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Sorry, i posted this newsreport in the wrong thread.
I just shared it in the correct thread.

Thank you @Ananda for letting me know!
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
it has secured a contract worth about USD80 million to supply a “comprehensive naval warfare systems suite” for Shaldag Mk V fast patrol boats being built by Israel Shipyards for a "Southeast Asian country".
@Sandhi Yudha why you put this on Indonesian Navy thread and not Philippines Navy thread ? Are you secretly hoping those items will be resold back to Indonesia like the Aerostar UAV case ;)
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
A video just uploaded by PAL shows us that "BRS 2" is at 44% of the construction. Unclear is how far the construction is of BRS 1" is. Also no updates yet of KCR-60 #5 and #6.


Its seems there are some plans for cooperation between PAL and Lundin/North Sea Boats. They don't give any details, but for some reason they are holding a KCR-60 model in their hands.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
They don't give any details, but for some reason they are holding a KCR-60 model in their hands.
Perhaps they (PAL) trying to outsource some of their work for smaller naval vessels. If the plan for Frigates come to fruition (Whether Iver Based/Babcok design or some workshare with Fincantieri on FREMM), they will have their hand full on Frigates program.

I'm not quite convince the work partnership with Lundin also include Lundin design. I do sense their Trimaran Fast Patrol Boats will be one off/proof of concept/experimental projects. Looking to other Patrol Boats projects that being work out on other Shipyards also shown similar design. For that, I do tend to believe it's PAL effort to outsource their smaller design vessels.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thats the point.
1. Totally unarmed, without any naval sensors or combat management systems. In posts #1805 and #1811 its already shared that Saab/Ericsson doesn't participate anymore in this project. For now there are no plans to install those systems.
2. Detailed technical information about engines or other systems installed are not released yet. Probably only a simple civilian navigation radar is installed.
3. Also other information/data are not released to the press. Things like behaviour in bad weather, weight and balance, center of gravity, speed, range, endurance, internal space are important to determine how many and what kind of systems can be installed on this trimaran.

Some other news.
The KRI Pollux 935 'hydrographic vessel' has been added to the fleet. It is unknown what kind of equipment is installed, but it has at least a 30 mm gun, so with a max speed of 27 kts, this boat is also suitable for patrols.
It looks like a Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm gun wit an additional sensor, but i am not 100% sure, the gun is only short from a distance visible, and only for a part with people surrounding it and blocking the view.
I was looking again at images of KRI Pollux 935.



Clear images of the 30 mm gun are not really available. Like the navy want to hide that its just a manual operated thing or something...

What could it be? Its not an Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm WS, an Aselsan Smash or an MSI Defence DS 30B REMSIG 30mm. Could it be a variant of the MSI-DS SEAHAWK LW30M or MSI-DS SEAHAWK DS A1?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

It's official, Babcock design will be use by PAL for their two Iver based Frigates Project. The announcement say that the design will be bespoke for PAL/TNI-AL specifications.

It's already rumours and expected that PAL will co-op with Babcock, when Frigates Project for two Iver based Frigates being contracted early last year. Considering OMT as original license holder already work with Babcok for further Projects.

As the bespoke design, perhaps that's where MinDef and PAL also sign German+Turkey design house on doing some 'modification' work. But seems based on this, all the works also involved Babcock.

Another article from Sheppard:

And Babcock official site:
 
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Arji

Active Member
Don't know where I should raise this question but, since the French lost their bid to supply Australia with their sub, how would it affects French effort to market their product in other market. i.e. Indonesia?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
For Submarine market, their localisation project still doing well with Brazil and India. Both are not small market, infact India can be bigger or at least at par SSN market with Australia (which according to discussion in RAAN Thread here potentially between 6-8 SSN).

Naval Group already provided their expertise for Brazil SSN with reactors coming from Brazil. India with their own Scorpene program, potentially (looking to Indian forums) can further talk with French on similar deal. So far their own Nuke Subs based on Russian experience, but they could reach out to Frenchie to improve their own indigenous SSN program.

For Indonesia, Naval Group still in tight competition for Indonesian next batch SSK, with DSME and TKMS. The break up deal with Australia, should give wake up call to Frenchie on handling International localisation program more through. Seems the detail implementation on the Submarine localisation Project that get sour with Australia.

Naval Group already loosing out on Frigates project in Indonesia. Their FREMM partner Fincantieri bag the deal previously, while they adamant only offering FTI/Belhara Frigates. Frenchie also must learn to provide better packages (in overall financing, pricing, and tech transfer), as many who can afford their products now also demand localisation to further help their own Industry.

One thing for sure, the Australian Submarine turn around, must give any producers lesson, that signing the deal doesn't mean is done deal.
 
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