It is their job to scrutinize the government spending. It's only a shame that sometimes, they scrutinize them by talking out of their ass. I can only hope that they conduct a thorough investigation so that the actual planner and expert can refute his dumb claims with facts.
Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Those kind of politicians, just spreading lies and misinformation, even if others have to suffer because of their lies, they dont care, as long they can get profit of it. But using such disasters for their own agenda make these hypocrite creatures really lower than rats.
TB Hasanuddin Duga Retrofit KRI Nanggala-402 di Korsel Gagal
"Saya menduga pada hasil perbaikan ini ada hal-hal atau kontruksi yang tidak tepat sehingga KRI Nanggala-402 tenggelam," kata TB Hasanuddin.news.detik.com
This is the kind of Political sniveling quality that coming from Indonesian Political circles. This guy belong to 1st Parliament Commission that handle Defense and Security. That's why I put it, just to shown the quality of Politicians in Parliament.
First; he's already blaming the quality of Refurbishment done by DSME in 2012. He is blatantly call the USD 75 Mio Refurbishment work is wasting money, cause it's fail job. This without any technical assessment result. Just his hunch.
Second; He talk about problem in 2012 after refurbishment on Nanggala. Fatal accident related problem in Torpedo Room. While actually the ones that have accident was Nanggala sister submarine Tjakra.
/data/photo/2012/07/08/1213243620X310.JPG)
Komandan Satuan Kapal Selam Meninggal dalam Latihan - Kompas.com
Komandan Satuan Kapal Selam Armatim, Kolonel Laut P Jeffry Stanley Sanggel, yang meninggal dunia saat latihan disemayamkan di Kelapa Gading.amp.kompas.com
This's even though coming only from on guy, but he has senior position in that committee. This reflect the quality of Indonesian Politicians handling Defense and Security, no wonder Indonesian defense Development got bog down.
Sadly many people believe such lies. On the internet today some people start even to believe a lie from a netizen that a France nuclear submarine was involved in the accident of KRI Nanggala 402.
Anyway, this is the latest press conference, recorded today.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Video of KRI Nanggala taken by ROV from MV Swift Rescue, showing the body of the Submarine breaking it to three. Begin at 8:00". It's already in Sandhi post, just post shortened version.
As for the esteem Indonesian Politicians, yes just like any Politicians in Parliament anywhere. Their job to scrutinized and challenge Administration actions. However this kind of bantering they make just to advance their own Projects. This particular politician (I already loathe even to mention his name) are part of Political circles that want to have project with the Russian before, either more Flankers or Kilo Subs.
That's already happened so many times. They don't care what TNI or Defense development. All they care is to get new projects that related to their backings. If they are really care and want to make impartial assessment, then they should shut up and conduct the process professionally. That last word is asking too much from that 'crowd'.
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Reuters report.
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reut.rs
Sunken missing Indonesian submarine found broken into pieces
A missing Indonesian submarine has been found, broken into at least three parts, at the bottom of the Bali Sea, army and navy officials said on Sunday, as the president sent condolences to relatives of the 53 crew.
reut.rs
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Ananda, Ngatimozart, thank you for sharing.
Here another news report with some more details and underwaterphotos.
www.channelnewsasia.com
Here another news report with some more details and underwaterphotos.
All 53 on board sunken Indonesian submarine confirmed dead, more debris found: Military chief
BALI: All 53 crew members on board a sunken Indonesian submarine have been confirmed dead, with debris of the vessel found, said Indonesia's military chief on Sunday (Apr 25). Air Chief Marshal Hadi Tjahjanto said search teams had received "visual images" which have been
In late 2018 there was a report that the Indonesian Navy has requested two hydrographic rescue vessels. The IHS Jane's link has since disappeared, but we mentioned it in post #801. The request was lost in the usual bureaucratic maze but one hopes that this accident will kickstart this procurement project again.
Anyone heard of this theory before? I want to know the validity of what he said, though I'm skeptical. This smells too much like some wild speculation at best and conspiracy theory at worst, but I admit I don't know enough about submarine to know what exactly is in that picture.
He said that the damage suggest that the torpedo suffer a premature detonation in the tube, though I can't really see it in the picture.
I'm hoping someone here could shed a light on this. I know I shouldn't take crap from twitter seriously, but apparently some in the Indonesian military enthusiast community seems to be more open to this theory in particular.
He said that the damage suggest that the torpedo suffer a premature detonation in the tube, though I can't really see it in the picture.
I'm hoping someone here could shed a light on this. I know I shouldn't take crap from twitter seriously, but apparently some in the Indonesian military enthusiast community seems to be more open to this theory in particular.
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He can't make a claim like that based on a single photo. It's impossible to determine anything based on a single blurry photo. If I want to say he's right, I need more data first. If I want to prove him wrong, I also need more data. If I say either way without having the data first, then I'm guilty of the same sin he made, which is pulling an answer out of his ass.
What he's doing is "cocoklogi", not science.
What he's doing is "cocoklogi", not science.
Exactly my thought, but I couldn't exactly disprove it so I thought someone here might know more than I did. He also posted links to his youtube video in the twitter thread with more information, and you can probably hear more of his argument
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I believe in one of the press conference, the Navy Chief already stated there's no explosions being registered by nearby surface ships sonar/sensors. There's no acccoustic signal being registered (at least from TNI-AL official sources) of Implosion like what happen with ARA San Juan.
Crew of missing Argentine submarine died instantaneously after explosion: US
BUENOS AIRES (BERNAMA) - An investigation by the US naval office into the disappearance of Argentinian submarine ARA San Juan has revealed that the vessel imploded and sank at a speed of between 10 and 13 knots, killing all 44 crew immediately. Read more at straitstimes.com.
Torpedo premature explosion like what happen with Kursk even being heard by NATO sensors. So unless there's data or information showing explosion, I don't think torpedo premature explosion is the cause. If that happen, not only TNI-AL surface ships can registered the accoustic signal, perhaps Singaporean and Australian can also heard. Base on what happen with Kursk and San Juan, that information already come out.
That picture is pretty solid evidence...that we're living in a post-evidential world where anyone can say anything.
We'll have to wait for a proper survey of the wreck, both by photo imaging and side-scan sonar to know more. Once the hull has been photographed in detail and the debris field measured, we'll know more. Anything before that is pointless speculation.
We'll have to wait for a proper survey of the wreck, both by photo imaging and side-scan sonar to know more. Once the hull has been photographed in detail and the debris field measured, we'll know more. Anything before that is pointless speculation.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
A country with submarines but without a submarine rescue ship doesnt take the life of its sailors seriously. Even the RMN, with just two submarines has one.
The Japanese seems to have offered an attractive package for 8 30FFM-frigates, they probably can offer something similar for a Chiyoda-type of submarine rescue ship. If TNI-AL desires a smaller ship, than our neighbours can build a sister ship of the MV Swift Rescue.
But looking to the current administration, im afraid it will take many years before a definitive candidate is chosen and a contract is signed.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
From post #801 Dec 28, 2018. Practically after 2.5 years from that announcement, and after one fatal accident, the Indonesian Navy aknowledged that the procurement for submarine rescue vessel is still in the process.
Pemerintah Sudah Rencanakan Beli 1 Submarine Rescue Ship
"Kapal rescue kita akan sudah diprogramkan dengan Bappenas dengan Kemhan," kata Asrena KSAL Laksamana Muda TNI Muhammad Ali.
news.detik.com
After this incident, let's see how this going to
to develop. Local sources talk the budget of USD 90 mio for the vessel. Still this is the budget that being talked couple years ago. At this moment I'm also in doubt if the final configuration and specs has been lock or not.
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Having a sensible conversation on the TNI AL’s shortcomings — Part 1
(b) In moments of despair, I sometimes wonder if the procurement process in the TNI-AL is run by idiots — or if at an organisational level it is capable of learning — for their continued failure to follow naval best practices or to procure a submarine rescue vessel. The enemy is not sinking TNI-AL vessels and boats; instead they are sinking on their own — something is very wrong for mistakes to recur so often. Keep in mind that the TNI-AL lost a Frosch I (Type 108)-class amphibious landing vessel, KRI Teluk Jakarta, after a hull breach on 15 Jul 2020.
1. Please forgive the well meaning criticism below:
(a) A man lacking in wisdom fails to learn from mistakes of others that is directly relevant (i.e. the loss of ARA San Juan on 15 Nov 2017), but it's an absolute idiot that doesn't learn from his own mistakes (i.e. the loss of KRI Nanggala and the loss of KRI Teluk Jakarta).
(b) In moments of despair, I sometimes wonder if the procurement process in the TNI-AL is run by idiots — or if at an organisational level it is capable of learning — for their continued failure to follow naval best practices or to procure a submarine rescue vessel. The enemy is not sinking TNI-AL vessels and boats; instead they are sinking on their own — something is very wrong for mistakes to recur so often. Keep in mind that the TNI-AL lost a Frosch I (Type 108)-class amphibious landing vessel, KRI Teluk Jakarta, after a hull breach on 15 Jul 2020.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
From my assesment (as I have mentioned many times in Indonesian threads), it's combination of poor execution of planning (especialy from last term MinDef), and poor planing it self (due to projects mentality). Progressing structure procurement on initial planning can be sideline for 'add on' projects.
Sometimes when I take a peek on local forums or other Indonesian enthusiast forums, I can't help my self put palm in my face of some Indonesian forumers blame on the procurement practises mentality on Soeharto Regime. Well it's much worse than Soeharto regime, especialy in the last term. I already shown how Ministry of Finance and Bapenas has to 'return' many MinDef proposals due to 'half bake' planning process. Some people blame Bapenas and Ministry of Finance for prolong process. Well how they can process half bake proposals and planning that doesn't calculate overall costs and no projection on sustainment costs.
At least Soeharto era has guided blue print policy that they derive the planning on. Prabowo's now talk on more detail progressing plan for 25 years. According to what I heard it will shown when new assets need to be procured, old assets to be retired, progressing capabilities and capacities development, as also life time sustainment plan.
It's moving on right direction if it can be set like that. However the problem in Indonesia always execution of planning, and side/add on projects that can 'detour' the implementation. Just like this Submarine Rescue Vessels, I bet the process get prolong due to some other 'projects' sidelined it's priorities. Like I said on my earlier posts, more than 50 years operating Submarine (since the 60's), this rescue vessels only 'recently' put in the process. Even then, I'm not sure it's priority. If it's still not prioritise after this, I don't what to comment.
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Gryphinator
Active Member
One of 3 or 4 shots of the sub in October from Australian Defender who did a photo article on Indo navy divers earlier in the year. It does not look well maintained from this one pic but I'm no pusser...
Attachments
Ananda
The Bunker Group
According to TNI-AL spokeman during one of the press conference related to KRI Nagapasa, the Submarine has certification for sea worthiness up to Sept 2022.
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TNI AL: Batas Waktu Kelayakan KRI Nanggala-402 Berakhir September 2022
'Kalau pemeliharaannya baik maka itu bisa lebih dari 30 tahun, lebih dari 40 tahun,' terang Ali.
nasional.kompas.com
The article is more to explantion (and defense) from TNI-AL of the submarine condition. My suspect after 2022, 402 either has to go to another overhaul or being paid off. This related to the previous schedulle of PT. PAL Submarine projects (that I've posted sometime ago)
Looking on the previous plan (set during previous administration era), PT. PAL work with DSME stretch to two batches of type 209 derive DSME 1400. Base on the timing on previous plan, by 2022 when 402 Nanggala seaworthiness certificate runnout then the 4th DSME 1400 (#406) will be close to operational status.
It could also the one that taking over is it sister 401 which right now doing heavy overhaul with PT. PAL. In short 402 seems already reaching its end of operational live. I don't think with PAL (according to previously set schedulle) already full in hand with batch 2 DSME 1400 project, they will doing another overhaul project for 402.
However Batch 2 project now being postpone, as MinDef now (at least officialy) review whether to move on with DSME 1400 batch 2 or going to work with another vendors for next batch of Submarines. It could be if the accident does not happen, they will try another overhaul project for 402 as stop gap measure due to delay on next batch submarine project. I do see even the overhaul being done right now on its sister 401 also a stop gap measure until enough new build submarine come out.
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All I can see in the photo is a bit of marine growth, about what you'd expect in-between dry-dockings. Cheers.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Just a question.
The KRI Cakra 401 and Nanggala 402 are not in the possession of an escape hatch/emergency access door to able the crew to be rescued by a deep submersible rescue vehicle.
But is such a thing installed in the Nagapasa-class?
The KRI Cakra 401 and Nanggala 402 are not in the possession of an escape hatch/emergency access door to able the crew to be rescued by a deep submersible rescue vehicle.
But is such a thing installed in the Nagapasa-class?
It would be interesting whether Indonesian submarines are equipped with RESUS.
RESUS is a third-party emergency resurfacing system for TKMS submarines sold by ArianeGroup that basically works as long as the ballast tanks are still intact (and the sub hasn't taken on too much water yet through a rupture of the pressure hull) and as long as someone is alive to activate it, from any depth - if it's not on automatic mode where it fires at a pre-set depth anyway that is. The system consists of a number of gas generators that blow the water out of the tanks, thus establishing buoyancy and having the sub rise up to the surface.
The system is the default rescue system on German submarines (with previous systems first installed in the 80s) - we don't operate a submarine recue vessel btw.
From the marketing spiel it seems to be mostly sold to and used by navies who intend to operate their TKMS subs below 400m - up to where a pressurized air bottle system can fill the same function and is regularly used. RESUS is also apparently not exactly cheap (the next two German subs won't have it either for cost reasons), especially as the gas generators need to be refurbished at ArianeGroup every ten years. Hence, on both accounts, its not automatically a given and relatively unlikely that Indonesia uses it.
RESUS is a third-party emergency resurfacing system for TKMS submarines sold by ArianeGroup that basically works as long as the ballast tanks are still intact (and the sub hasn't taken on too much water yet through a rupture of the pressure hull) and as long as someone is alive to activate it, from any depth - if it's not on automatic mode where it fires at a pre-set depth anyway that is. The system consists of a number of gas generators that blow the water out of the tanks, thus establishing buoyancy and having the sub rise up to the surface.
The system is the default rescue system on German submarines (with previous systems first installed in the 80s) - we don't operate a submarine recue vessel btw.
From the marketing spiel it seems to be mostly sold to and used by navies who intend to operate their TKMS subs below 400m - up to where a pressurized air bottle system can fill the same function and is regularly used. RESUS is also apparently not exactly cheap (the next two German subs won't have it either for cost reasons), especially as the gas generators need to be refurbished at ArianeGroup every ten years. Hence, on both accounts, its not automatically a given and relatively unlikely that Indonesia uses it.
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