Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
They are useful to show "present," it is what actually happening in the contested North Natuna sea. Malaysia, our main adversary due to Ambalat block, has already backed off and reduced their defense budget significantly compared to 2012 level. Their 6 new warship underconstruction are also still in 20 percent completion rate despite it has been 6 years since the construction started. We still have enough time. As for China, no need to be worried if we are still in neutral position. They know Indonesia is likely going to be something in the future, they rather want to have good relation with us.


China view

The current world structure was basically built with the US as its center. I suppose, in the future world, there might not be any country that can build the world with itself as the core. The world won't be polarized but multipolar: China is growing; Russia remains a strong power; Germany and India are rising; and regional big powers like Indonesia are also getting a bigger role on the international stage.


US view

U.S.-INDONESIA RELATIONS



Indonesia is a vital partner in the Indo-Pacific Region and U.S.-Indonesia relations have taken on increasing importance. Indonesia is the world’s third largest democracy, largest Muslim-majority country, the seventh-largest economy by purchasing power, and a leader in ASEAN. It possesses the world’s greatest marine biodiversity and its second greatest terrestrial biodiversity. Indonesia also borders the South China Sea, which has the world’s busiest sea lanes — over $5 trillion in cargo and as much as 50 percent of the world’s oil tankers pass through the South China Sea every year.


As I said, no need to be rush, focus on economy, industrialization, defense industry, and research and development first. If the projection is right which is based on a conservative 5.4 % economic growth, so we would possibly have 40 billion USD defense budget (1 % of GDP) starting at 2035 inshaAllah.

I dont want Indonesia to be another Saudi Arabia with such large budget being used mostly for imported weapon from the west, but rather we should follow China path with almost total self sufficiency, or at least at South Korea/Turkey level with good home grown defense industry. We have 15 years to go before 2035, so I hope our planner think with great vision and believe with our own people capability.

View attachment 47913

I hope you are right, but i am afraid Ngatimozart's view is closer to reality.

We lost Ligitan and Sipadan not only because of the social, political and economical crisis, but also because we were military at our weakest in decades. We were too passive and underestimated our opponent. In that period not all of our neighbours respected our borders.

But now we are talking about Communist China, a country hungry to replace the US in world-domination, and the inventors of the Nine Dash Line. Yes, Indonesia is an important place for china to dump their cheap stuff, but that doesnt mean they are our friends. Only china-fanboys will deny what happen in Laut Natuna Utara in December 2019 - Januari 2020, because that period was the hardest and most obvious proof that our Coast Guard and navy lack the deterrence needed.

You can not solve that with building tollroads, high speed trains or moving the capital to another island. Local built LSTs, tankers and small patrolboats armed with machineguns are maybe necessary in TNI-AL's fleet, but they need much more.

All other things i want to say are already posted by Ananda and Ngatimozart, and like they already say, we really need to rush.


PS: PAL just started to post photos of the launch of the first of two ordered hospitalships. Sadly these photos are only photos from the decoration and the table used during this ceremony. Also all other posts shared by PAL today are useless crap about Covid-19.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
"Neither 155 mm SP gun nor 105 mm towed gun will equip Indonesian Marine Corps in near future. Government gives priority to equip the corps with SP anti-aircraft gun. Due to CAATSA, Russian made weapon is not an option. Maybe European will supply it. Hope not Chinese made weapon."

This is actually new for me. They dont have decent AA-stuff, but i didnt know that plans to equip the Korps Marinir with a Self-Propelled anti-aircraft gun is seen as a priority. Didnt they need the BT-3F more urgently?

Or is our beloved Oracle still under influence of the New Years Eve champagne?

Btw, ofcourse he 'forgets' the existence of the South-Korean K263A3 SPAAG and K30 Biho.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
"Neither 155 mm SP gun nor 105 mm towed gun will equip Indonesian Marine Corps in near future. Government gives priority to equip the corps with SP anti-aircraft gun. Due to CAATSA, Russian made weapon is not an option. Maybe European will supply it. Hope not Chinese made weapon."

This is actually new for me. They dont have decent AA-stuff, but i didnt know that plans to equip the Korps Marinir with a Self-Propelled anti-aircraft gun is seen as a priority. Didnt they need the BT-3F more urgently?

Or is our beloved Oracle still under influence of the New Years Eve champagne?
Well SP AAA wouldn't go astray for a Marine Corp or any mobile ground formation. However it very much depends upon the CONOPS of your marines.

If you look at the USMC they are moving towards small highly mobile units that they intend to insert into remote locations with AShM and use to attack enemy shipping, then scoot to another location and repeat. By the time the enemy launch a counter battery strike, Elvis has left the building.
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Notice the slight improvement in speed from 16 knot to 18 knot. They changed the engines from MTU to Caterpillar but I don't know the model number nor it's exact specs.

Nothing to do with the length difference though. KRI Semarang with the same 124 m length has the old 16 knot top speed.
News articles say that the total power is 2 x 5420 KW. Looking at Caterpillar's product catalogue, the engines must be the C280-16. Given the power I suspect the ship may be able to exceed its supposed top speed of 18 knots.

KRI Makassar is equipped with 2 x 1960 KW diesel engines. KRI Semarang with 2 x 2920 KW engines. KRI Dr. Wahidin with 2 x 5420 KW engines. This is the sort of sensible progression that I like to see.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Now we also know the name and number, KRI Dr.Wahidin Soedirohusodo 991. A very long name, but the number is logic, KRI Dr. Soeharso number is 990 after all.
Something that interest me is the difference in medical facility between previous Hospital Ship KRI Dr Soeharso and this new Hospital Ship.


The media news just as PT PAL face book on that you put, state 991 KRI Dr Wahidin has medical facility equivalent to Class C Hospital. However as the Kompas article I linked it above, 990 KRI Dr Soeharso medical facility equivalent to Class B Hospital.

Thus the new hospital ship got more powerful engine, however they're bit downgrade the medical facility. At least by Media articles. I do understand the need for more powerful engine, the difference of 3-4 knots per hour speed can translate to a day earlier arrival on some area. Just don't understand why the downgrade on medical facility.
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
@Ananda No idea why the downgrade, but the difference between a class B hospital and a class C hospital is 8 more specialists and 2 subspecialist doctors plus their support staff and equipment. Considering the size of the ship I am quite sure that finding the space in the ship is not a problem. So the Navy should be able to upgrade the hospital facilities when funding becomes available.

And while this is speculation, it's likely that funding is part of the reason for the downgrade. KRI Dr. Wahidin costs 764 billion rupiah but as far as I can tell that does not cover the medical equipment and the cost of medical personnel. Those will be provided separately. So it's possible that the Navy looked at the quotes and decided to get the standard equipment now and get the specialist medical equipment later.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
it's possible that the Navy looked at the quotes and decided to get the standard equipment now and get the specialist medical equipment later.
Well hope PAL design the hospital facilities as modular concept. Thus it can be added when the necessity and fund available. C Class Hospital standard means it's more limited on more Trauma and General Treatment. Those Hospital Ships also being design to provide more specialist medical services for remote islands community. That's why I believe KRI Dr Soeharso being prepared with B Class Hospital standard.

Still it's good they're building another Hospital ship also. Thus with this, it will be three. Seems will be one for each fleet.

Wondering if KRI Semarang will be return to regular LPD standard, or Command Ships standard. Hear they are building Command Ships standard from Makasar class, however seems the speculation divide between build new one, or modified one of the existing regular LPD.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
News articles say that the total power is 2 x 5420 KW. Looking at Caterpillar's product catalogue, the engines must be the C280-16. Given the power I suspect the ship may be able to exceed its supposed top speed of 18 knots.

KRI Makassar is equipped with 2 x 1960 KW diesel engines. KRI Semarang with 2 x 2920 KW engines. KRI Dr. Wahidin with 2 x 5420 KW engines. This is the sort of sensible progression that I like to see.
Thanks for sharing.

Its also remarkable what the Dirut of PT PAL is telling:
"Saat ini PT PAL Indonesia juga mempersiapkan rancang bangun kapal LPD tipe Submarine Tender. Hal ini menjawab bahwa varian produk yang kami miliki adalah wujud nyata dari product development guna memenuhi kebutuhan customer,” ujarnya."

So this means that after the second BRS, another ship will be build and that the Makassar Class LPD-design is even usable to build a Submarine Depot Ship/Submarine Tender.

I wonder how specialized the ship will be, just for replenishment and supplies or complete with workshops, handling-, load-and test equipment to perform maintenance, inspections and testlaunches of torpedoes?

Its also remarkable that PAL can build a Submarine Depot Ship out of nowhere, is the design team that experienced and capable to do the design completely inhouse or did they got ToT from another shipyard or did they even study the design of KRI Multatuli 561?

KRI Multatuli 561 was originally built as a Submarine Support Ship, and only later converted into a Command Ship. Maybe the future Submarine Depot Ship will be also a semi-/dual role Command Ship, to be able to replace the KRI Multatuli which is built in 1961.
 

Khabaopie

New Member
According to a Ukrainian language publication (no idea about reliability), Indonesia "will be" the first export customer of Ukraine's new 'Neptune' anti-ship missile. From what I can glean through my translator plugin the missile is a derivative of the Kh-35 with "improvements" though there are scant details on the missile's comparative performance.

Is there any credence for this claim? I only found this article whilst fishing for sources about the Vietnamese navy's Kh-35 copy and have yet come across any articles concerning this deal (reportedly signed late last year!) in Indonesian media. Though other more mainstream Ukrainian and many Vietnamese outlets have echoed these claims.

Even if it is true, I'm struggling to fathom what use the TNI would have for them. I doubt it would be mounted on a ship. Maybe for coastal defence?

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
According to a Ukrainian language publication (no idea about reliability), Indonesia "will be" the first export customer of Ukraine's new 'Neptune' anti-ship missile. From what I can glean through my translator plugin the missile is a derivative of the Kh-35 with "improvements" though there are scant details on the missile's comparative performance.

Is there any credence for this claim? I only found this article whilst fishing for sources about the Vietnamese navy's Kh-35 copy and have yet come across any articles concerning this deal (reportedly signed late last year!) in Indonesian media. Though other more mainstream Ukrainian and many Vietnamese outlets have echoed these claims.

Even if it is true, I'm struggling to fathom what use the TNI would have for them. I doubt it would be mounted on a ship. Maybe for coastal defence?

Well in post #74 of the "General Maritime News&Discussion Thread" ive posted this

Looks like it has the same coast defence role as the K-300P Bastion-P and the Ball (Kh-35) system.
The RK-360 Neptune seems to have a maximum range of 280-300 km, but other specifications like speed is unknown. It can be subsonic, because according to some sources the Neptune is a modified Kh-35, but according to Navalnews the booster is taken from the S-125. Looking to the Kh-35ish shape and the fact that it is driven by a Motor-Sich MS-400 turbofan, i also expect it is subsonic.

So if the Indonesian government indeed ordered the Neptune anti-ship missile system, then its more likely its for coastal defence on land. I can not believe they will install it on ships, it doesnt make sense to put them on the new corvettes and frigates, and its questionable if older ships like the Ahmad Yani Class and Kapitan Patimura Class are easy to modify to make them compatible with this Ukrainian system. Looking to the age of these older ships, its also a waste of money.

Its also unclear about the production, quality and reliability of this Neptune missile. Are the new missiles newly made, or recycled from S-125 and Kh-35 parts from Soviet-era? Hopefully it will be not like the BTR-4, it seems that Irak and the Indonesian Korps Marinir are not really satisfied about the BTR-4 vehicles delivered.

Two alineas are written in the Neptune missile Wikipedia article about the Indonesian acquisition, but there are no reliable source references or links given.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
there any credence for this claim? I only found this article whilst fishing for sources about the Vietnamese navy's Kh-35 copy and have yet come across any articles concerning this deal (reportedly signed late last year!) in Indonesian media
Just add what @Sandhi Yudha post, it's still Ukraine claim. I'm bit sceptical if it's only Ukraine claim. There's a lot off Ukraine claim on Indonesian interest on their assets before, however only very few come to any fruition.

On the other hand, there's talk in Indonesian Media and rumours in Indonesian Forums on Indonesia looking to Ukraine for potential co-op to develop Defense Assets. Missile is talk being one of them. Ukraine need money, and Defense co-op is one big thing they can hope to sell to other developed countries that want to build their own Defense Industry. Still this's also need to be watch carefully. There's already a lot off talk about Industrial Defense co-op between Ukraine with Turkey (for example). However even that until now only few that shown progress.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Indonesian Navy fire Exocet MM40 Block 3 during exercise that happened in 2019. The missile strike exactly the ship bridge (control room).

Thank you for sharing.
1. Sadly they add fake soundeffects during impact.
2. I dont understand why the crew speak English, its not an international exercise, maybe they just try to imitate Hollywood films. I mean selfrespecting navies, like for example from Egypt, Finland, France, Germany, Russia use their own language during launch exercises.



Now also on Navalnews.
 
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Ahmad

Active Member
Thank you for sharing.
1. Sadly they add fake soundeffects during impact.
2. I dont understand why the crew speak English, its not an international exercise, maybe they just try to imitate Hollywood films. I mean selfrespecting navies, like for example from Egypt, Finland, France, Germany, Russia use their own language during launch exercises.
Personally I dont have any problem with it, promoting the use of English language IMO is good for country development. We are not Malaysian/Indian where English is stronger than their own native language, the status of Indonesian language (bahasa Indonesia) is very strong in our country where whole people from different ethnic use it in every day lives. Those people in the control room should understand and speak English better for better cooperation with other Navy in multinational exercise or even real war.

This Indonesia Air Force is also using English. Maybe SBY introduce this norm to our Armed Force.

 

ChestnutTree

Active Member
This Indonesia Air Force is also using English. Maybe SBY introduce this norm to our Armed Force.
English is the language of aviation. All pilots generally have to be able to speak English as a requirement to getting their commercial pilot's license.


Thank you for sharing.
1. Sadly they add fake soundeffects during impact.
2. I dont understand why the crew speak English, its not an international exercise, maybe they just try to imitate Hollywood films. I mean selfrespecting navies, like for example from Egypt, Finland, France, Germany, Russia use their own language during launch exercises.



Now also on Navalnews.
From what I have seen, normalizing English skills amongst the ranks is a very positive development. I have met high ranking officers in the TNI that don't even have conversational English skills.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
What is the different with CMS (Combat Management System) ??
The combat management system is the heart of naval vessels. It integrates all the ship’s sensors and information of other parties for real time situational awareness.
The Fire Control System is part of the CMS and will control the weapon systems to handle the targets.



List of vessels searching for the remains of the Boeing 737-524 PK-CLC from Sriwijaya Air.

TNI-AL (Indonesian Navy):
- KRI R.E. Martadinata 331
- KRI John Lie 358
- KRI Tjiptadi 381
- KRI Teluk Gilimanuk 531 (onboard Tim Denjaka, Kopaska and Tontaifib)
- KRI Teluk Cirebon 543
- KRI Parang 647
- KRI Kurau 856
- KRI Tenggiri 865
- KRI Cucut 866
- KRI Bontang 907
- KRI Rigel 933



Menteri Perhubungan (Kesatuan Penjagaan Laut dan Pantai (KPLP)):
- KN. Trisula P-111
- KN. Alugara P-114
- KN. Celurit P-203
- KN. Belati P. 205.
and three other patrolboats.

Direktorat Polisi Air Badan Pemeliharaan Keamanan (Ditpolair Baharkam) : 10 boats

Kantor Kesyahbandaran dan Otoritas Pelabuhan (KSOP) Kelas III Kepulauan Seribu :
- KN.355
- V.S054


Edit:
- KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai 332
- KRI Malahayati 362
- KRI Semarang 594
- KRI Leuser 924
will follow soon.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Just add, this SAAB sites clearly shown that FCS can be part of CMS. Thus like Sandhi post, the CMS is bigger system that control all warfare operation, and FCS just part of that.
 
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