Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Few days old video on Indian Navy first operational exercise with their two carriers, Vikramaditya and Vikrant. No decision yet which will win for new carriers fighters betwen Rafale M and F-18E/F Shornet. Previous expected win on Rafale M now seems put in hold, especially on impending Modi's meeting with Biden soon.

Still Indian Navy so far inform both carrier now can operate at least one full sq of Mig 29K simultaneously.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

Few days old video on Indian Navy first operational exercise with their two carriers, Vikramaditya and Vikrant. No decision yet which will win for new carriers fighters betwen Rafale M and F-18E/F Shornet. Previous expected win on Rafale M now seems put in hold, especially on impending Modi's meeting with Biden soon.

Still Indian Navy so far inform both carrier now can operate at least one full sq of Mig 29K simultaneously.
Given the way that Indian defence procurement works, the 7th gen airborne combat platforms will be entering service before the Indians make a decision vis a vis Rafale and Shornet.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
If they keep delaying, Rafale will be the only one that have production line open. Boeing put big hope on Indian order to keep Shornet line open, I don't know if they can keep waiting on Indian decision.

Indian MoD already talk that whether Shornet or Rafale will be interim solution until their own indigenous design available by later half of this decade. Considering how long they stretch Tejas development, those "interim" Carrier Fighters can be permanent ones.

They don't have choices tough if they keep delaying the decision. Ukraine's war or not, Mig 29K line will not be keep open by Russian. Considering Russian carrier fighters program also in limbo as with Russian carrier program.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
If they keep delaying, Rafale will be the only one that have production line open. Boeing put big hope on Indian order to keep Shornet line open, I don't know if they can keep waiting on Indian decision.
Maybe that's the plan re to retire the Shornet option and not make it seem as if it is a deliberate choice on their part. The current order book for Rafale would stretch into the second half of this decade, which would be well past the Shornet's end of production (est 2025) without a major order.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Naah. India procurement is so fucked-up that it's unlikely the bureaucrats & politicians involved are aware of that.

Remember, this is the lot that some time after C-17 production had finished, but with some whitetails being available, & with the IAF saying "Please, please, buy some", put in a request for more than there were left to buy. When informed that they couldn't have them all they asked for the production line to be reopened. Eventually they agreed to buy the last one.

The IAF had asked for six more, but that was passed around the relevant offices for years, despite the looming cliff, until it was impossible. No cunning plan.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Indeed- Indian procurement is the place I look too when I get depressed about UK defence programs. Ten years to order some M777's, and let's not forget the medium calibre naval gun requirement, which at one point, had no bidders, despite the product being available off the shelf.


This is no 4D chess game, it's just business as usual for a process which seems to actively resist producing an output.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This is Naval News article on that twin carriers exercise that Indian Navy done. This also more or less confirmation the purpose of the exercises also shown they are capable to at least simultaneously put two fighters sq in the sea.

The article talk also about Indian third carrier. Now in here the article talk about larger CATOBAR IAC-2 design as third carrier. While previously in Dec, I have put link on Indian media that talk about third carrier still use IAC-1 design similar to Vikrant.

Personally, on looking toward Indian track record on implementation of new design, I do agree with previous Indian media reports that the Navy going with another IAC-1 design for 3rd carrier. Track record wise shown Indian Navy actually also quite conservative, thus putting another STOBAR design that they're already familiar with, could be the reason.

Thus, with 3rd carrier being push (whether another IAC-1 or IAC-2 design), those decisions for either Rafale M or Shornet need to be done soon. They're simply not enough Mig-29K available for 3 carrier forces.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
How long before the first carrier Vikramaditya is out of service ? It's pretty old, based on some ancient technology etc ? She's over fifty years old by now -surely she'll be got shot of ?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

The Admiral Gorshkov completely rebuild as Vikramaditya since 2004 to 2012, or around 4 years over schedule and over budget. However it is completely rebuild with new boilers, new diesel engines, new electronics, new electrical systems and 80%+ of compartments practically also rebuild.

By that sense, it is using at least 90's or early 2000 Russian technology plus some Indian and Western components. The ship also doing big refit in 2020.

So Indian Navy already conducted big investment on that ship. So I do see the ship still part on their 3 carrier make up.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
How long before the first carrier Vikramaditya is out of service ? It's pretty old, based on some ancient technology etc ? She's over fifty years old by now -surely she'll be got shot of ?
Young pup yet, compared to the Virat (ex HMS Hermes), finally decommissioned in 2017, 73 years after being laid down, the first INS Vikrant was laid down as HMS Hercules in 1943 and decommissioned 54 years later.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Young pup yet, compared to the Virat (ex HMS Hermes), finally decommissioned in 2017, 73 years after being laid down, the first INS Vikrant was laid down as HMS Hercules in 1943 and decommissioned 54 years later.
Very true. If I were the Indian navy and looking at two new build carriers, I'd be wanting to divest myself of the old girl asap but then again, I've got my NATO/RN head on - manpower presumably is cheaper and more abundant in the Indian navy.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
According to this article, India's Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, is expected to disclose an extensive contract for 26 Rafale Marine fighter jets during his trip to France. The Indian Navy has chosen for the Rafale Marine from Dassault, because this version is bearing over 80% similarities to the IAF’s Rafales. The potential savings from training, repairs, and maintenance owing to the shared features of the fleet made the Navy opt for the French jet.

With this order it seems to be likely that the 45 MiG-29Ks will operate only on the INS Vikramaditya.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
I can't help but notice from a design perspective, the TEDF is clearly inspired by the Rafale with the delta wing and forward canards. The Amercians were also pitching from the point that the same F414 engine on the Shornet would be produced by HAL under there recent deal for Tejas Mk2.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indian always hedge their tech partners on multiple source. Their Indigenous Turbofan Kaveri right now progressing with SNECMA now SAFRAN. SAFRAN also got JV deal with HAL for helicopter engine.


India with drive on Indigenous capabilities as Modi's talk on "made in india", I believe will still hedging on Kaveri. Despite the slow development process, the work now with SAFRAN hope will fasten the process. One thing the difference with GE 414 co-op, in Kaveri SAFRAN act more as tech vendors. This means IP will hold by Indian.


The way I see the agreement, GE agree to build 414 in India, shares some tech, give Indian access to manufacturers large parts of engines, doing final assembly in India. However unlike SAFRAN in Kaveri co-op, GE will hold the IP as the engine still GE-414.

Different approach seems betwen how India co-op with SAFRAN and GE, which shown how India keep strategy on hedging tech sources as wide as possible.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

India about to launch the 7th and last of P-17A Frigates batch. The 7 Frigates in my opinion is quite fast to launch for Indian Shipyard track record. The first one launch 4 years ago in 2019. The 6th ones launch in mid of this month.


This video quite descriptive shown P-17A Frigate schematic model. At least this series already shown improvement on Indian Yards productivity. The video talk on the 6th Frigate that launch mid this month.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This is more then two weeks old, and actually at the same time during the launch the last P-17A frigate above. Indian Navy chief during the launch of Mahendragiri confirm (so far) that the 3rd carrier will be the sister ship from INS Vikrant.

Means all three Indian Carriers will be STOBAR version. I do see this as rational move on India, consider they are not mastering Emals catapult tech yet, unlike China. There's talk on acquiring US Emals in Indian forums and media. However considering India actually want more independent on their carrier, that move seems not being taken enthusiastic by all Indian political factions.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

This is more then two weeks old, and actually at the same time during the launch the last P-17A frigate above. Indian Navy chief during the launch of Mahendragiri confirm (so far) that the 3rd carrier will be the sister ship from INS Vikrant.

Means all three Indian Carriers will be STOBAR version. I do see this as rational move on India, consider they are not mastering Emals catapult tech yet, unlike China. There's talk on acquiring US Emals in Indian forums and media. However considering India actually want more independent on their carrier, that move seems not being taken enthusiastic by all Indian political factions.
They have far more CV experience than China and it does make sense for them to build another STOBAR CV whilst they get EMALS sorted. There is no reason why they can't build an indigenous EMALS system because they do have both the scientific and engineering expertise to do so. Look at their recent lunar lander; it was built and flown for 10% of the cost of a western vehicle, and it's achieving good results.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
There is no reason why they can't build an indigenous EMALS system because they do have both the scientific and engineering expertise to do so.
There's no doubt India have the expertise to do their own RnD. However we know the problem in India, even much of Asia is not the capabilities. It is political and bureaucracy will. On that side, China do have advantages on that matter.

On the other hand India military also known to be conservative in design, and take time to decide something new. Look how long they are developing Tejas, which aside bureaucracy also because Indian AF seems take time to decide which tech they want Tejas to be equipped with.

STOBAR is safe bet, for Indian navy operations. They are not like China (at least in implementation track record) on the speed in trying something new. Perhaps it is also because they don't have as much RnD fund as China. Thus those with lower RnD fund usually decided on safer proven tech they're already known.

Still yes as you have mention in their Lunar lander, they're also shown they can done it in much cheaper way. If the bureaucracy not 'distrurb' the scientiest and engineers too much.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There's no doubt India have the expertise to do their own RnD. However we know the problem in India, even much of Asia is not the capabilities. It is political and bureaucracy will. On that side, China do have advantages on that matter.

On the other hand India military also known to be conservative in design, and take time to decide something new. Look how long they are developing Tejas, which aside bureaucracy also because Indian AF seems take time to decide which tech they want Tejas to be equipped with.

STOBAR is safe bet, for Indian navy operations. They are not like China (at least in implementation track record) on the speed in trying something new. Perhaps it is also because they don't have as much RnD fund as China. Thus those with lower RnD fund usually decided on safer proven tech they're already known.

Still yes as you have mention in their Lunar lander, they're also shown they can done it in much cheaper way. If the bureaucracy not 'distrurb' the scientiest and engineers too much.
I agree the bureaucracy is the problem, but it's so ingrained in Indian governance, culture, and way of life that it would be nigh on impossible to cauterize it from the body India.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Young pup yet, compared to the Virat (ex HMS Hermes), finally decommissioned in 2017, 73 years after being laid down, the first INS Vikrant was laid down as HMS Hercules in 1943 and decommissioned 54 years later.
Viraat/Hermes was laid down in 1944, but work suspended in 1945 because the war was over (many ships were scrapped unfinished), resumed in 1952 to clear the slipway, launched in 1953 then work suspended again, & finally commissioned in 1959, with an angled deck & other changes from the original design.

Much the same for Hercules/Vikrant. Laid down 1943, launched 1945, work suspended 1946. Bought by India in 1957 & commissioned, modified, in 1961.
 
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