Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

AbhiDas94

New Member
Indian Navy to opt for 3 more Project-75 scorpene class (Kalvari class) submarines amid delays in Project-75I submarine program !!!

 

AbhiDas94

New Member
Indian Navy pushing for 3rd and 4th Aircraft Carriers and also for new fighter jets !!!! 3rd Aircraft Carrier will be another Vikrant while 4th one will be a mammoth 65,000 tonnes CATOBAR carrier which will replace INS Vikramaditya beyond 2035 !!!

 

swerve

Super Moderator
The IN's been talking about more & bigger carriers for a long time. Go back 15 years & they were talking about having three carriers operational & bigger carriers building by now.

It isn't news.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The IN's been talking about more & bigger carriers for a long time. Go back 15 years & they were talking about having three carriers operational & bigger carriers building by now.
Perhaps SSKs and SSNs should be the priority. Good tools for constraining Chinese ambitions in the Indian Ocean. Even if they had an extra carrier or two, they would still be debating the jets.
 
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JohnWolf

Member
A suggested OOB for the Indian Navy


I was scanning naval strengths around the world when India’s Navy caught my eye. Now that there are two viable carriers in service there are some interesting possibilities here, and I would like to suggest one of my own.

First of all, I would separate them into three coastal fleets, three Task Forces capable of deployment to the Pacific, a convoy protection force and a pool of ready reserve ships..



TASK FORCE ONE;

1 x Vikrant class aircraft carrier

2 x Visakhapatnam class DDG

1 x Delhi class DDG

1 x Shivalek class FFG

2 x Talwar class FFG

1 x Kora Class Corvette

1 x Deepak class replenishment ship




TASK FORCE TWO;

1 x Vikramadity class aircraft carrier

2 x Kolkata class CCG

1 x Delhi Class DDG

1 x Shivalek class FFG

2 x Talwar class FFG

1 x Kora Class Corvette

1 x Deepak class replenishment ship


(I would have liked to include the pair of seagoing tugboats in this, but they appear to be far too slow)


The thing that should jump out at the reader is that these Task Forces will be almost identical to the observer. Not only are the carriers built along the same lines, but the Visakhapatnam DDGs are an upgrade of the Kolkata. Why is this important?

The Vikrant can support a larger Air Group, and will be getting better aircraft than the MiG-29k as soon as they become available. So we have two carriers with radically different abilities, and the chance to conceal which one is which until their aircraft are committed… which is hopefully too late for the enemy.

The escort is large by any standard, unless you recall the true purpose of the original Kiev class; to provide fighter cover for other ships. The DDGs and FFGs can dart out there in twos or threes, fire their SSMs and then scoot back to the main body while under a fighter umbrella the whole time.

This is in addition to any other operations a carrier task force can be expected to undertake.

So, why include the Corvette?
During any long-term deployment you can expect to have to detach a ship for one reason or another, so it would be handy to have one designated as your “odd-job” ship ahead of time. The Koras have the range (barely) for fleet operations, but not the speed for a good high-speed run. However; the replenishment ship would also be left behind if the warships all went to full-throttle, right?

Lastly, there is the principle of Concentration Of Force. The Indian Navy has the ability to dominate the Indian Ocean, I don’t think there is any doubt that it over-matches every other nation with a coast on that ocean, including Australia. The problem is, there is also China on the horizon. If you want to be able to beat them, you have to be able to project naval power in strong formations. You have to organize and start training your fleets to do that. Get them used to working together as far ahead of time as possible so that the various commanders can become familiar with each other’s strengths and weaknesses. The ultimate goal would be getting your captains to the point where they can anticipate each other’s actions in a crisis, a very handy thing in the event of a communications break-down.





READY RESERVE;

? x Visakhapatnam class DDG (as they become available)

1 x Kolkata DDG

1 x Delhi DDG

1 x Shivalik FFG

2 x Talwar FFG

1 x Kora


This is a pool of ships in port or under maintenance standing by to replace lost or damaged ships serving with the Task Forces above…. and possibly to respond to any other emergencies.
More about this below.



TASK FORCE THREE
1 x Jalashwa LPD

2 x Magar LST

3 x Shadul LST

1 x Rajput DDG

2 x Brahmaputra FFG

2 x Kora class Corvettes

1 x Jyoti class replenishment ship


There is no pool of replacements standing by for this task force because it is not meant for sustained operations. It goes in, lands the troops, and comes back for more. It certainly is not meant to operate outside the coverage of a carrier or some other kind of support.

The Jyoti will raise some eyebrows. The massive old oiler is more than double the size of the next largest ship in the task force, and thus a huge target. Well…. better that than a troopship, but it also is the right speed for this group, and there is a higher probability that this task force will be operating close to various allied forces. Unless they are USN, they might be lacking a replenishment ship of their own.



UNNASSIGHNED;

2 x Rajput DDG

1 x Brahmaputra

3 x Kumbhir class LST

4 x Dvora class boats

1 x Aditya repair & replenishment ship

I honestly don’t know what to make of the old Rajput/Kashin class ships. All the tinkering that has been done with them (one has a ballistic missile!?) leaves me scratching my head, so I leave them in this category to cover anything I have not thought of. For example; these three ships plus half of the Reserves could slap the Pakistani fleet down even if Iran sends them some reinforcement.

The Dvora boats are excellent but exist in such small numbers that I left them alone, except for two of them. And about the LSTs, more about them in the Regional groupings.




CONVOY PROTECTION

4 x Kamorta class ASW Frigates

12 x Ocean Patrol ships

1 x Abhay class Frigate

I believe it would be of enormous value to India to instantly implement trade protection convoys in the event of war. This is something China cannot do, and so would be both an economic and a moral victory from the outset. The above ships should be enough for four convoys at a time, with the old Abhay standing by.

Half of the Ocean Patrol ships are said to be ready for upgrade to “light Frigate status” so I would suggest doing so ASAP. The others (Saryu class) can support a helicopter large enough for ASW work.


I have more, about the Coast Guard and light units, but I think that is enough for one post.


Thoughts?

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T.C.P

Well-Known Member
India's platforms like Mig-29K are proven and they are about to buy the Rafale which is a mature platform as well, The FC-31 is not mature and keep in Mind, India has been operating non Catobar carriers for longer than China.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
A suggested OOB for the Indian Navy


I was scanning naval strengths around the world when India’s Navy caught my eye. Now that there are two viable carriers in service there are some interesting possibilities here, and I would like to suggest one of my own.

First of all, I would separate them into three coastal fleets, three Task Forces capable of deployment to the Pacific, a convoy protection force and a pool of ready reserve ships..



TASK FORCE ONE;

1 x Vikrant class aircraft carrier

2 x Visakhapatnam class DDG

1 x Delhi class DDG

1 x Shivalek class FFG

2 x Talwar class FFG

1 x Kora Class Corvette

1 x Deepak class replenishment ship




TASK FORCE TWO;

1 x Vikramadity class aircraft carrier

2 x Kolkata class CCG

1 x Delhi Class DDG

1 x Shivalek class FFG

2 x Talwar class FFG

1 x Kora Class Corvette

1 x Deepak class replenishment ship


(I would have liked to include the pair of seagoing tugboats in this, but they appear to be far too slow)


The thing that should jump out at the reader is that these Task Forces will be almost identical to the observer. Not only are the carriers built along the same lines, but the Visakhapatnam DDGs are an upgrade of the Kolkata. Why is this important?

The Vikrant can support a larger Air Group, and will be getting better aircraft than the MiG-29k as soon as they become available. So we have two carriers with radically different abilities, and the chance to conceal which one is which until their aircraft are committed… which is hopefully too late for the enemy.

The escort is large by any standard, unless you recall the true purpose of the original Kiev class; to provide fighter cover for other ships. The DDGs and FFGs can dart out there in twos or threes, fire their SSMs and then scoot back to the main body while under a fighter umbrella the whole time.

This is in addition to any other operations a carrier task force can be expected to undertake.

So, why include the Corvette?
During any long-term deployment you can expect to have to detach a ship for one reason or another, so it would be handy to have one designated as your “odd-job” ship ahead of time. The Koras have the range (barely) for fleet operations, but not the speed for a good high-speed run. However; the replenishment ship would also be left behind if the warships all went to full-throttle, right?

Lastly, there is the principle of Concentration Of Force. The Indian Navy has the ability to dominate the Indian Ocean, I don’t think there is any doubt that it over-matches every other nation with a coast on that ocean, including Australia. The problem is, there is also China on the horizon. If you want to be able to beat them, you have to be able to project naval power in strong formations. You have to organize and start training your fleets to do that. Get them used to working together as far ahead of time as possible so that the various commanders can become familiar with each other’s strengths and weaknesses. The ultimate goal would be getting your captains to the point where they can anticipate each other’s actions in a crisis, a very handy thing in the event of a communications break-down.





READY RESERVE;

? x Visakhapatnam class DDG (as they become available)

1 x Kolkata DDG

1 x Delhi DDG

1 x Shivalik FFG

2 x Talwar FFG

1 x Kora


This is a pool of ships in port or under maintenance standing by to replace lost or damaged ships serving with the Task Forces above…. and possibly to respond to any other emergencies.
More about this below.



TASK FORCE THREE
1 x Jalashwa LPD

2 x Magar LST

3 x Shadul LST

1 x Rajput DDG

2 x Brahmaputra FFG

2 x Kora class Corvettes

1 x Jyoti class replenishment ship


There is no pool of replacements standing by for this task force because it is not meant for sustained operations. It goes in, lands the troops, and comes back for more. It certainly is not meant to operate outside the coverage of a carrier or some other kind of support.

The Jyoti will raise some eyebrows. The massive old oiler is more than double the size of the next largest ship in the task force, and thus a huge target. Well…. better that than a troopship, but it also is the right speed for this group, and there is a higher probability that this task force will be operating close to various allied forces. Unless they are USN, they might be lacking a replenishment ship of their own.



UNNASSIGHNED;

2 x Rajput DDG

1 x Brahmaputra

3 x Kumbhir class LST

4 x Dvora class boats

1 x Aditya repair & replenishment ship

I honestly don’t know what to make of the old Rajput/Kashin class ships. All the tinkering that has been done with them (one has a ballistic missile!?) leaves me scratching my head, so I leave them in this category to cover anything I have not thought of. For example; these three ships plus half of the Reserves could slap the Pakistani fleet down even if Iran sends them some reinforcement.

The Dvora boats are excellent but exist in such small numbers that I left them alone, except for two of them. And about the LSTs, more about them in the Regional groupings.




CONVOY PROTECTION

4 x Kamorta class ASW Frigates

12 x Ocean Patrol ships

1 x Abhay class Frigate

I believe it would be of enormous value to India to instantly implement trade protection convoys in the event of war. This is something China cannot do, and so would be both an economic and a moral victory from the outset. The above ships should be enough for four convoys at a time, with the old Abhay standing by.

Half of the Ocean Patrol ships are said to be ready for upgrade to “light Frigate status” so I would suggest doing so ASAP. The others (Saryu class) can support a helicopter large enough for ASW work.


I have more, about the Coast Guard and light units, but I think that is enough for one post.


Thoughts?

—————————————————————————————————————————
One major weakness is the lack of SSNs, US Carrier groups include at least 1 SSN as they are the best ASW you can get. SSKs cannot keep up with the Carrier group.
 

JohnWolf

Member
One major weakness is the lack of SSNs, US Carrier groups include at least 1 SSN as they are the best ASW you can get. SSKs cannot keep up with the Carrier group.
Right, but maybe with T.F. 3? The problem with that is I'm not sure what function they would serve there other than scouting.
To my mind, the most likely surface opposition to a landing would be FAC-M's, which is why the Koras are there.
 

JohnWolf

Member
India's platforms like Mig-29K are proven and they are about to buy the Rafale which is a mature platform as well, The FC-31 is not mature and keep in Mind, India has been operating non Catobar carriers for longer than China.
Agreed.
I also prefer Indian missiles, but the fact remains that Chinese DDGs carry about twice as many..... maybe.
The thing is, I keep wondering if those PLAN ships are fully-loaded. I have my doubts about that.

And before I forget, the 2nd part;



Oh, and what about Submarines?

The only thoughts I have on them are about basing two of the Shishmar/209s in the Andaman Islands. With their ability to carry 24 mines externally and their long range, basing them forward makes good sense if you want to take full advantage of opportunities for mischief in sea-lanes vital to the PLAN.

As for the rest, I don’t really see Subs as adjuncts to any fleets. They are hunters, existing solely to seek & destroy enemy ships in the largest possible numbers.

Period.

The Kalvari and Kilos can be evenly split between East & West, while the remaining two Shishmar can be sent into the southern reaches where their long range will serve them well.



REGIONS;
This concerns the three regions of India’s coastal security. I did find how the Solas boats are distributed and show them that way here, but I did not use that as a guide since i have my own ideas about how the smaller units ought to be based;

WEST;
31 x Solas Boats

6 x ISV boats

6 x Car Nicobar patrol vessels

3 x Veer Class missile Corvette





SOUTH;
16 x Solas boats

6 x ISV

4 x Bangaram patrol vessels

1 x Trinkat patrol vessel

3 x Khukri class missile Corvette

3 x Mk. IV LST

1 x Ambika 1,000-ton oiler


EAST;
33 x Solas boats

6 x ISV

5 x Car Nicobar

2 x Veer

2 x Mk. IV LST


ANDAMAN;
5 x ISV

2 x Dvora boats

3 x Car Nicobar

2 x Veer

3 x Mk. IV LST

(also; 2 x Shishmar subs based here but under main fleet command)

Since this is probably a major departure from what already is in place, I should explain myself;

SOUTH; Keeping this group at half the rating of the East & West is probably a bad idea. Not only do they have to keep an eye on unpredictable Sri Lanka and a small island group to the southwest, but it is also likely that they would have to extend operations in to the Maldives in the event of a major war. If your allies are the slightest bit careless, this group might even have to go as far south as Diego Garcia.

So it is that the Khukir class can be found here. They are 10 knots slower than the Veer but also have double the range. That is also why the small oiler is down here, and the old Trinkat is also here to serve as a mobile communications hub. The LSTs are there for the same reason the are in other places; to quickly shuttle reinforcements (about 1 company each plus supplies and equipment) to hot-spots without having to wait for the rest of the fleet.


ANDAMAN; Yes, I have split this off as a separate command, The distances seem too great for this to be part of EAST command region. The danger level is also higher here. If India means to keep these islands (and it should) then it should have a force, however small, that the local commanders know they can depend on…. meaning something that won’t be transferred out on the whim of an Admiral 1,000 miles away.

There is one base there that appears to be more than adequate, but there should be more than just one. There appear to be many small bays and inlets in the area, it should not be difficult to set up two small satellite bases and keep them mostly hidden. Three more false small bases would also be good to have, and it takes surprisingly little to set up a convincing “hidden” base. Normally, some left-over material and a couple of trigger-happy guards is all it takes.


COAST GUARD;
India has a very large and capable Coast Guard;

27 x offshore patrol ships

45 x patrol vessels in the 270-290 ton range

82 x boats

14 x small boats

18 x Hovercraft

I am not going to touch this, no matter how tempting it might be. Surveillance, patrol, interception and Search & Rescue work is not likely to become less important in wartime.

Just the opposite, in fact.

Search & Rescue will be more important than ever, since saving trained Naval crews will be essential for winning a prolonged war. Also; this is another source of moral victory in the event of war, since the PLAN will be more like the Imperial Japanese Navy was 80 years ago. Not only will they be lacking much of what they would need to do so, but the Chinese do not place such a high value on human life.

The exception would be the protection of LOCAL convoys. There will still be plenty of traffic between India’s own ports, after all, and ASW gear needs to be set aside for the Coast Guard for this reason. After all, they already have 36 x twin-engine Dornier’s that have an endurance of 10 hours, so surely this is something the Admiralty already has in mind, right?




Enemy Threats;


There is probably enough being said already about deployments outside of the Indian Ocean, but what about Chinese threats inside that ocean?

This goes beyond what PLAN ships happen to be there in the opening days of a war, and even the high likelihood that Chinese commercial shipping may have weapons hidden aboard to convert them into Commerce Raiders. There are also 15,000 Chinese fishing ships out there, with several thousand in the Indian Ocean at any time. Intelligence reports sent back by such craft are a problem, but there is other sorts of devilry that they could get into.

I think it would be foolish to think that none of those ships have hidden arms lockers and at least a few men aboard with military backgrounds. A few squads of men armed with weapons left over from the days of Mao might not seem like much of a threat, but how many islands out there are equipped to withstand a raid from dozens of men armed with rifles, a couple of machine-guns and perhaps a mortar or an RPG?

How many islands that are rated as unimportant will suddenly become important when some ridiculous little mob of armed men take up residence there, dig in and set up a watch-post and radio transmitter?

Remember; fishing boats produce their own rations.

So, an exception to a lot of what was said above is going to be negated by the scramble to eliminate all PLAN/CCP shipping during the early days of the war. Making a clean sweep of the area first will eliminate a lot of headaches later on, and India’s minor allies can render their best service by helping with this task. For that to happen, a plan must be made ahead of time.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Right, but maybe with T.F. 3? The problem with that is I'm not sure what function they would serve there other than scouting.
To my mind, the most likely surface opposition to a landing would be FAC-M's, which is why the Koras are there.
Seriously, the only use you can find for a SSN in a carrier group is scouting? ISR is the modern term and yes it would play a major role, but so would ASW, ASuW and land strike but the most important capability a SSN has, is deterrence, a very game commander who approaches a carrier group without neutralising the SSN threat. You would not use a SSN to take out FAC-Ms (more commonly referred to as OCVs or even Corvettes these days) but you may use it to take out its support base. The traditional FAC-M is disappearing from Navies anyway, they are too vulnerable to ASM armed Helicopters or even Shipboard SSMs or even the BAE Mk 45 or Leonardo 127mm Guns which are incredibly accurate. A Leonardo 127/64 Vulcano can reach distances of up to 85km.
 

JohnWolf

Member
Seriously, the only use you can find for a SSN in a carrier group is scouting? ISR is the modern term and yes it would play a major role, but so would ASW, ASuW and land strike but the most important capability a SSN has, is deterrence, a very game commander who approaches a carrier group without neutralising the SSN threat. You would not use a SSN to take out FAC-Ms (more commonly referred to as OCVs or even Corvettes these days) but you may use it to take out its support base. The traditional FAC-M is disappearing from Navies anyway, they are too vulnerable to ASM armed Helicopters or even Shipboard SSMs or even the BAE Mk 45 or Leonardo 127mm Guns which are incredibly accurate. A Leonardo 127/64 Vulcano can reach distances of up to 85km.
Nope, didn't say that, but the Indian Navy has no SSN, just SSKs.
That, and has India been training to integrate SSKs with a surface task force?

The PLAN also seems to be keeping their own FAC-M fleet up there, or is that now what we have to call "Litoral" now?
That one is just ripe for puns, ain't it?
So, what types would be most likely to come dashing out from small bases or hidden coves to try to break-up a landing operation?
Something tells me we'd have more to worry about than just aircraft.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Nope, didn't say that, but the Indian Navy has no SSN, just SSKs.
That, and has India been training to integrate SSKs with a surface task force?

The PLAN also seems to be keeping their own FAC-M fleet up there, or is that now what we have to call "Litoral" now?
That one is just ripe for puns, ain't it?
So, what types would be most likely to come dashing out from small bases or hidden coves to try to break-up a landing operation?
Something tells me we'd have more to worry about than just aircraft.
Didn’t India lease a SSN from Russia a while back? Perhaps it has been returned to Russia.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It’s been returned; but they do have two indigenously built SSBNs with a two more under construction.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indian P75 indigenous SSN program supposedly going to provide 12 SSN. According to Indian media and defense forums, initially it is supposed to be divided with 6 SSN work with US Tech and 6 with Russian tech.

This's very typical Indian solutions to find best practices from both sides. However now seems P75 program going to scale down to 6, with potentially French tech as partner. French now as already clinch deal for 6 scorpene SSK, going to offer similar SSN partnership as they did with Brazilian.

Basically India like Brazil need to provide their own reactor, while French will offer their SSN expertise to integrate all systems and nuclear propulsion supports. Indian reactor do base much on their co-op with Russia.

 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
Indian P75 indigenous SSN program supposedly going to provide 12 SSN. According to Indian media and defense forums, initially it is supposed to be divided with 6 SSN work with US Tech and 6 with Russian tech.

This's very typical Indian solutions to find best practices from both sides. However now seems P75 program going to scale down to 6, with potentially French tech as partner. French now as already clinch deal for 6 scorpene, now going to offer similar SSN partnership as they did with Brazilian.

Basically India like Brazil need to provide their own reactor, while French will offer their SSN expertise to integrate all systems and nuclear propulsion supports. Indian reactor due base much on their co-op with Russia.

Oh I did like that America was going to give five Virginia class submarines to Australia instead of selling them lol
 

JohnWolf

Member
It’s been returned; but they do have two indigenously built SSBNs with a two more under construction.
I wonder why they give a higher priority to more SSBNs than to attack subs.

Also, I have heard that 50% of India's military budget goes to the Army, while Air Force and Navy split the remainder. That sounds awfully backwards to me, given the kind of threat China has become.
Still, kudos to Indian for creating a nicely balanced force in the navy. I'll have to have a look at the rest of their armed forces to see if I can make any sense of it.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder why they give a higher priority to more SSBNs than to attack subs.

Also, I have heard that 50% of India's military budget goes to the Army, while Air Force and Navy split the remainder. That sounds awfully backwards to me, given the kind of threat China has become.
Still, kudos to Indian for creating a nicely balanced force in the navy. I'll have to have a look at the rest of their armed forces to see if I can make any sense of it.
Because SSBNs are the seaborne leg of their nuclear missile triad.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Also, I have heard that 50% of India's military budget goes to the Army, while Air Force and Navy split the remainder. That sounds awfully backwards to me, given the kind of threat China has become.
Thats most likely due to the size of the army. The army has more personnel than the other 2 services combined, IIRC its the second largest active army by numbers. So army salary alone consumes a large portion of the budget. It has pretty long land borders with 2 hostile nations and historically landwarfare has been the main component of war with these hostile nations.

Also keep in mind that being a democracy India cant make large structural changes as easily as Pakistan and China. Keeping such a large army well salaried and out of politics has to be one of India's greatest success if you look at the predespostion to coups the rest of the nations have in the same region.
 
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