EADS might get involved with offering the A400M, will there be a competition similar to the MMRCA?
Don't see Boeing getting involved with the C-17, it just seems too heavy for what the Indians would be looking for.
Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Twinblade
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Don't see Boeing getting involved with the C-17, it just seems too heavy for what the Indians would be looking for.
dragonfire
New Member
dragonfire
New Member
Chinook is the new Heavy Chopper for India
While the Mi-26 was used primarily in heavy equipment and vehicle lift and for disaster relief and rescue, it was not apparently majorly used in troop transport, it is going to be interesting to see what additional roles the Chinook is going to be put into use for.
Wonder if any members here can highlight how Chinook can be more useful in troop movement and in Special Forces operations than the Mi-17 of which India already operates quite a few and has more already on order
This is surprising as the Chinook has won on price, the general perception is that while both Russia and US offers good quality the American prices are generally higher than Russian prices. Another factor is that the IAF already operates about half-a-dozen (perhaps only 4 ?) Mi-26.
While the Mi-26 was used primarily in heavy equipment and vehicle lift and for disaster relief and rescue, it was not apparently majorly used in troop transport, it is going to be interesting to see what additional roles the Chinook is going to be put into use for.
Wonder if any members here can highlight how Chinook can be more useful in troop movement and in Special Forces operations than the Mi-17 of which India already operates quite a few and has more already on order
the road runner
Active Member
In Afghanistan the Chooks have been the helicopter of choice as the thin air/altitude has an operational effect on helicopters.I assume the chooks having a tandem rotor have an advantage in lifting heavier loads in remote mountains in India as they do in Afghanistan.Less time between overhauls for engines and advanced avionics would also ensure more time in the air and less time being overhauled.
There are different variants of the Chinook, which often makes it a SF delivery vehicle of choice for a number of mission sets. The fundamental strengths of this helicopter is both the range (especially with extra fuel bladders) and speed of the helicopter (see factsheet), which enables it to insert SF deep into enemy territory. Beyond the US military, a number of Asian SF (Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, Thai and Singaporean SF) use it to:-
(i) insert and extract LRRPs for long range patrol on land missions (including with their vehicles);
(ii) raid missions and there are 2 mounting points for fast rope in the Chinook;
(iii) long range combat search and rescue (to collect downed pilots); and
(iv) insert and extract divers via water-landing or by helocast (see [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6Gj2cl2j3o"]mrbrown at NDP 2011: A Helicopter Ride with the Naval Divers - YouTube[/nomedia]) and you can also see water landings (where pilots lower the ramp, to partially flood the Chinook and let divers drive in with their Zodiacs into the compartment).
In the movie, Act of Valour, SEALs are extracted by two Special Ops Gunboat Crew. The 2 gun boats themselves are inserted by Chinook. The gun boat crew fast rope from the Chinook into the boats and thereafter, the Chinook releases the boat. Using real SEALs as the main characters in this movie creates a level of authenticity and accuracy in TTPs for a movie that I have not seen in a long time. Great to see India join good company and benefit from established practices in operating the type.
Beyond SF missions, Singaporean Chinooks were deployed for:
(i) Hurricane Katrina Relief Operations, in the US; and
(ii) in both Thailand (Ranong, Phang Nga, Phuket, Krabi, Trang and Satun) and in Indonesia (Meulaboh and Banda Aceh) after the Dec 2004 Tsunami (See ebook on Operation Flying Eagle for more details on how the Chinooks operated off Endurance class vessels to provide relief on land).
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dragonfire
New Member
A good number of these missions can also be done by the Mil Mi-17V, however there are some missions like the one with the Zodiacs and the capability to hover and offload personnel right at the edge of topographic feature which are unique to the Chinook, which is why it irks me that the purchase is for heavy lift requirements and not mentioned specifically for the Spec Ops unlike the C-130s which were ordered specifically for the Special Forces. It would be interesting to take a note of the variant being ordered though, it would insights into the deployment parameters
The only advantage i can see for the Mil Mi 17 is that it can be better loaded in terms of armament
BTW the movie was really awesome it had extreme originality esp in the first sequences which you referred above.
the road runner
Active Member
A jack of all trades and master of none.I think India is learning about specific platforms. IE Use an Apache as Gunship as that's what it is. Use a Chook as a workhorse lifting heavy loads,transporting goods and person's.Its all good to have a platform that is dual purpose but a specific platform is made to do one thing and excel at that one thing.
Range is the other advantage... which I mentioned earlier.
Chinooks will enable the Indian armed forces to set up forward arming and refueling points (FARPs - see [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQuoykNdATI"]Jump Forward Arming and Refueling Point - YouTube[/nomedia]), which will extend the range and operational capabilities of all helicopters (be it the Apache, scout helicopters or Mi-17s).
While FARPs are not sexy, they are essential for armour warfare on a big canvas. The SAF uses Chinooks to deploy ATGM teams to leap-frog mobile armour columns and provide artillery support and resupply for these ATGM teams (to heli-lift artillery too), when they are in place. Logistics is key to the deep battle and in that regard, the Chinook is a reliable workhorse. Spec ops is sexy but is it a specialised mission set. However, winning or losing the deep battle (with logistics playing an important part) can get tens of thousands of soldiers killed (be it on your side or on the other side).
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dragonfire
New Member
The Indian Military already operates in excess of 200 Mil Mi -8/17 and recently they have ordered a 139 more of Mil Mi-17V quite a few them in armed variants.Range is the other advantage... which I mentioned earlier.
Chinooks will enable the Indian armed forces to set up forward arming and refueling points (FARPs - see Jump Forward Arming and Refueling Point - YouTube), which will extend the range and operational capabilities of all helicopters (be it the Apache, scout helicopters or Mi-17s).
While FARPs are not sexy, they are essential for armour warfare on a big canvas. The SAF uses Chinooks to deploy ATGM teams to leap-frog mobile armour columns and provide artillery support and resupply for these ATGM teams (to heli-lift artillery too), when they are in place. Logistics is key to the deep battle and in that regard, the Chinook is a reliable workhorse. Spec ops is sexy but is it a specialised mission set. However, winning or losing the deep battle (with logistics playing an important part) can get tens of thousands of soldiers killed (be it on your side or on the other side).
Question is will the Chinooks be looked at for generic heavy load missions or for specific special mission assignments like to setup FARPs etc
BTW @ roadrunner the Apaches are going to the Indian Army and not to the IAF so there is a possibility they could be mated with the Strike Corps and if so could be used for mainly a Anti-armour role.
So far as it has been recently seen the only non-small arms orders specific to Special Ops/Forces was the 6 C-130 J s ordered. However there seems to be a big need for mission specific equipment and support packages which perhaps will get more focus as the modernization progress within the Indian Armed Forces
Edit: Very Probably another advantage the Mil Mi 17 would have over a Chinook could be the price, the Russian helo should definitely be cheaper
the road runner
Active Member
Cheers Dragonfire for your reply ,sorry for my late reply.
A bit of bad news for the IAF with another Mig-29 crashing on a training sortie
At least the pilot is safe,as he ejected.
Indian MiG-29 crashes during training sortie - IHS Jane's 360
The above article states that of the 872 Mig-21 purchased since 1964 , 482 of them have crashed , i do recall an article that stated the Mig-21 was the "flying coffin" but did not realise more than half of the Mig-21 fleet has crashed
With the MMRCA deal not being signed yet , i am curious as to when this will occur?
I can understand that both parties and negotiating ,but i wonder with the Rupee being devalued do you guys think India will receive the 126 fighters ,or will less be ordered.
Concerns Rise Over Indian Fighter Negotiations
A bit of bad news for the IAF with another Mig-29 crashing on a training sortie
At least the pilot is safe,as he ejected.
Indian MiG-29 crashes during training sortie - IHS Jane's 360
The above article states that of the 872 Mig-21 purchased since 1964 , 482 of them have crashed , i do recall an article that stated the Mig-21 was the "flying coffin" but did not realise more than half of the Mig-21 fleet has crashed
With the MMRCA deal not being signed yet , i am curious as to when this will occur?
I can understand that both parties and negotiating ,but i wonder with the Rupee being devalued do you guys think India will receive the 126 fighters ,or will less be ordered.
Concerns Rise Over Indian Fighter Negotiations
I think the perennial issues with buying Russian kit remain constant - spares supply chain. The Mig21 will likely have eliminated itself from the Indian fleet before it's replaced at the rate they're crashing.
I'd say one thing India might be best placed to do would be to trim it's types - there's a lot of aircraft in the fleet of various types with their own supply chain, maintenance training and so forth - they'd save a *fortune* and a couple of lives if they bulldozed the entire Mig21 fleet into tinfoil asap. Just stop flying it, spend the money on spares and better availability on more modern types.
I'd say one thing India might be best placed to do would be to trim it's types - there's a lot of aircraft in the fleet of various types with their own supply chain, maintenance training and so forth - they'd save a *fortune* and a couple of lives if they bulldozed the entire Mig21 fleet into tinfoil asap. Just stop flying it, spend the money on spares and better availability on more modern types.
smilingbuddha
New Member
I strongly disagree. The reason India will never buy an American front line fighter is not because of money issues but because of the fact that it does not trust that U.S will provide those fighters without any other secondary political motives. U.S needs to be able to gain Indian trust first because believe me or not India is world's biggest arms importer and there is plenty of opportunity to make money there. India does not want to get stuck with top of the line fighters without weapons systems or spare parts to support them if U.S betrays them just in case. India has done a lot of analysis to decide its MMRCA winner. The reason it chose Rafale is not because Rafale is superior to F-16 Block 60 or F-18 Super Hornet but by purchasing Rafale fighters India will benefit on the long run because it can trust France to provide all the extra accessories that come with the aircraft for many more years to come.
the road runner
Active Member
That dose not seem to be the case when it comes to transport aircraft with India purchasing C-130J and C-17.Also MPA aircraft with the P-8I being purchased.
The LCA uses a GE engine ,with that much money invested in USA kit i would argue that your above point may not be so accurate
Cheers
I wouldn't be so sure about the French being trusted to provide all the trimmings should they be politically opposed to Indian military action - as I recall my own country, Australia, had issues deploying the RAAF's Mirage fighters due to the political stance of the French during the 60s/70s (if I'm mistaken then someone please correct me). And I believe Israel had similar issues in their procurement of the Mirage V. Not saying they will do the same thing with India but I'm pretty sure they have prior form in that regard.
also the Israelis were done in by the French on their patrol boats - which is why they did a midnight run to "retrieve" them (after all they had paid for them!)
we also had the same problem with the Swedes and the Carl Gustav for Vietnam
Sorry, that might be your view but its not borne out by the fact that India has repeatedly indicated by deed and comment that it wants greater access to US gear - and in fact I first raised this on the old Proton Forums 5 years ago.
The issue for India and US technology has always in recent times been about tech transfer - they seem to think that an FMS purchase should also provide full ToT - which even US long term allies don't expect.
India has none of the allied partnering arrangements of any of the 5 Eyes community let alone NATO and yet thinks she's also entitled to full ToT? Its either naivete or a "try on" - either way it won't work
She's also been more than happy to buy US gear - eg C17's and P8's and quite frankly the ISR fitout in a P8 makes a fighter look like a go-cart.
You're letting your own bias ignore the facts and reality of whats actually happening in real life.
I have met the relevant Ind Def Attache in various different roles over the last 10 years and I can tell you that your view is not what the Govt or snr defence staff subscribe to. The Ind Def Attache represents all services btw, they are not a single service spokesperson despite the uniform that the individual wears when on the job
dragonfire
New Member
The shortlisting of the aircraft were done on the basis of evaluations by the user - the IAF. IIRC the Teen series, the Mig-35, the Gripen were eliminated on technical grounds and that left the Rafale and the EuroFighter in contention, the Rafale was then selected as the L1 bidder (lowest bidder from commercial bids submitted). All the contenders were happy with the process and held the whole activity right upto to the shortlisting in high regard.