Indian Air Force To Buy 126 Multi-Role Planes

P.A.F

New Member
http://www.dawn.com/2005/02/13/int5.htm

US firm, India may co-produce F-16s

By Our Correspondent
WASHINGTON, Feb 12: The biggest US defence company, Lockheed Martin Corp., is negotiating a deal with New Delhi that may allow joint production of the F-16 aircraft in India, company officials said.

Lockheed Martin is also prepared to share the sensitive technology behind the P-3 Orion naval aircraft with India, the officials added.

On Thursday, the company announced winning export licenses to sell P-3C Orion naval surveillance aircraft and C-130J military transport planes to India.

Earlier this week, India said it may also buy 125 single crew F-16 fighter jets from Lockheed Martin. The jets, also known as the Fighting Falcons, will be inducted as front-line fighters in the Indian Air Force.

Dennys Plessas, regional vice president of Lockheed Martin, told reporters that if India buys those jets the company would be a reliable supplier of spares and technology, and that the United States was keen to allow joint production of the F-16 in India.

India wants state-run aircraft-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to produce its future needs for spares.

On Wednesday, Lockheed Martin officials in the US said the company would also reveal the sensitive technology behind the P-3C Orion naval aircraft to Hindustan Aeronautics. If finalized this will be the first such arrangement between the US and India.

Lockheed Martin is also negotiating an arrangement for sourcing components and training with Hindustan Aeronautics so that they may have a service team ready when the deal comes through.

The US government has granted export licenses to Lockheed Martin for selling P-3 Orion and C-130J aircraft to India after New Delhi urged Washington to allow the sale of the aircraft to the Indian military.
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it's a shame that pakistan has to beg it's ass of for these jets while india asks once and gets once.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
The major problem with buying F-16 would be the threat of sanctions.

If India produce spares then would sanctions would be a problem.

Lockheed Martin is also prepared to share the sensitive technology behind the P-3 Orion naval aircraft with India, the officials added.
I don't why they want to give India such sensitive tech though it is the first time India trying procure so much from Lockheed.

C-130??
And that too in small numbers (8 i think) ,Instead must have buyed more number of IL-76.

What about Patriot??
Nothing has been said about that.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Moscow wouldn't be too happy about these developments its loosing China and now India!!
I didn't get u,China still buys most of its big weapons from Russia.
And India too.
Though India also buys much from western countries,it never neglects its most reliable military partner.
The recent Indo-Russia Big Deals are the proof for that.

About the 125 AC Deal,all Russia got to offer is Mig-29m2,IAF has bad experience with its Mig-29 in service especially with its engines.
I agree the problems are solved but still Mig-29 cannot be Used for Big Strike Roles unlike Mirage-2000 or F-16.
 

adsH

New Member
ajay_ijn said:
I didn't get u,China still buys most of its big weapons from Russia.
And India too.
Though India also buys much from western countries,it never neglects its most reliable military partner.
The recent Indo-Russia Big Deals are the proof for that.

About the 125 AC Deal,all Russia got to offer is Mig-29m2,IAF has bad experience with its Mig-29 in service especially with its engines.
I agree the problems are solved but still Mig-29 cannot be Used for Big Strike Roles unlike Mirage-2000 or F-16.

First off China is growing iNcreasingly independent as soon as French and the European release Arms embargo China would swap suppliers.

As far as it goes Russia would never appreciate American Weapon systems for India, since these are all big ticket weapons and much more superior in quality. Its indicating India’s intent or willingness to go western on its inventory. Regardless of the "Big Deals" Russia sees India as it primary Arms export market and it would not appreciate large western specially US Arms deals.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
What is this happening,Boeing offering F-18's comes as a real surprise however they would need the permission of congress.
Already the lockheed signed agreement for tech transfer of P-3 to HAL.
Other than P-3 ,Lockheed offers E-2C Hawkeye,C-130 Hercules and the classic F-16 fighter.
While Boeing offers C-17,Ch-47 Chinook and now the F-18.

As far as it goes Russia would never appreciate American Weapon systems for India, since these are all big ticket weapons and much more superior in quality. Its indicating India’s intent or willingness to go western on its inventory. Regardless of the "Big Deals" Russia sees India as it primary Arms export market and it would not appreciate large western specially US Arms deals.
I agree Russia never likes US arms deals,But right from Indian Independence India did depend much on western nations for Weapons.
India will still reserve most of its buying capability for Russia.
Afterall Indian 70% of weapons are Russian.

What surprising is India getting so many offers for its 125 plane deal.
Even Britian is pushing hard for EuroFighter Typhoon.
If we think in all ways its Mirage-2000V would be ideal the ideal option.
 
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ajay_ijn

New Member
Suprising News.
India's military hungry for more
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GB16Df06.html
NEW DELHI - Indian defense officials have laid out a request for a huge increase in spending on arms to New Delhi, most of which will be used to purchase state-of-the-art weaponry from suppliers around the world. In a couple of weeks, the national budget will be presented by the ruling United Progressive Alliance, headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, and while there is intense lobbying from representatives of various sectors to incorporate their demands, attention has focused on the over 40% hike in defense outlay that has been demanded by the India's defense forces, which comes in the wake of an unprecedented 22% increase last year.

Last year, the budget set apart the biggest-ever allocation to defense - the equivalent of US$15 billion for 2004-05. This represented 2.5% of India's gross domestic product, lower than China (6%) and Pakistan (5.5%), though in absolute terms Pakistan spent $4 billion last year, which was an increase of 20% over 2003-04.

The Indian defense community's wish list is long, which they feel is necessary to modernize the country's armed forces. These include a proposal to purchase F-16 fighter jets, Scorpene submarines and long-range rocket systems. The proposal to buy 126 F-16s - at $25 million each over five years - will itself cost the exchequer $3 billion. When this is added to the payments being made for the expensive equipment already purchased, the defense budget takes on huge proportions.

The increased defense spending includes more than $7 billion to purchase weapons systems and to implement the intermediate-range Agni ballistic missile units, capable of delivering nuclear warheads. India last year signed a $1.5 billion agreement with BAE Systems Plc, Europe's biggest weapons maker, for 66 Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer aircraft as part of its plan to modernize its air force.

Last year, the country also inked a multimillion-dollar deal with Russia to acquire an aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov. India has also agreed to buy three Phalcon airborne early-warning radar systems from Israel valued at $1 billion. Of the 3,414 tanks in the Indian army's possession, 1,200 are obsolete, while 700 of them are vintage Russian T-55s. India has been introducing T-90s phase-by-phase and it is estimated that almost $8 billion will be set apart for a project to increase the firepower of the infantry.

It is estimated that Israel's defense industry sold arms and munitions to India valued at $2.7 billion in 2003, constituting about 30% of its total orders, and offered more at Aero India, a five-day international aerospace and defense exhibition that ended this Sunday in the Indian city of Bangalore. It has been reported that at Aero India, touted as the largest show of its kind in South Asia, deals worth more than $1.2 billion were been signed between Indian and foreign aerospace firms. The deals ranged from aircraft purchases by Indian budget carriers from Airbus and Boeing to the joint manufacture of missiles and engine parts. India's air force is seeking government approval for 126 so-called "multi-role" combat aircraft to replace aging Russian MiGs, India's Air Chief Marshal Satish Tyagi said in Bangalore. Boeing has offered to sell its F-18 jets, while Maryland-based Lockheed Martin has offered its F-16 fighter as part of the deal.

There is one school of thought in India that insists that there is a requirement for such a huge augmentation and modernization of the Indian armed forces. Finance Minister P Chidambaram, while presenting last year's budget, said that the enormous hike in the defense-budget allocation was born out of the "government's determination to eliminate all delays in modernizing the defense forces. Having regard to the trend of defense capital expenditure in recent years, it has become necessary to make a higher allocation this year; 60% of the increase will be utilized for modernization." Some defense analysts say that the country should allocate such a huge portion as the bulk of the defense budget is revenue expenditure (salaries, wages) given the huge size of the Indian army, navy and air force.

Predictably, Pakistan is miffed at India's proposals to hike defense spending. Islamabad has repeatedly warned that India's increased defense spending was a "cause for concern". "This would wittingly or unwittingly accelerate the arms race between the two countries, which we could have avoided because both India and Pakistan need massive resources for poverty alleviation, education, health and for the social sector and creating new jobs," Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Masood Khan said in the recent past. Khan also said that Pakistan had increased its own defense spending, though at a smaller rate than India, and would seek to maintain the "competitive edge of our strategic and conventional capabilities".

The other school of thought is that India's defense spending and war preparedness should take into consideration the threat of actual war in the foreseeable future, short, medium and long term, with greater cause for concern being terrorist attacks, as well as internal insurgencies, such as Naxalism, bad governance, caste and feudal wars and communal violence. This, in turn, should lead to India focusing more on getting its intelligence-gathering infrastructure, external and internal intelligence agencies and paramilitary forces right, rather than building on conventional weapons of war. Given the current state of superiority of India's armed forces over Pakistan, the country from which the threat perception is the highest, there is no requirement for such a massive drive. Further, given the fact that both India and Pakistan are nuclear-weapon states, it is unlikely that a full-scale high-intensity war lasting for weeks will ever happen, making the case for having such a huge cache of arms as well as armed forces redundant.

As far as India's other powerful neighbor, China, is concerned, it is believed that the exponential growth of business relations between the two countries is an effective deterrent, but in any case it would be impossible for India ever to match China's military strength. But business is seen as a bridge to peaceful relations. Sino-Indian bilateral trade has set a record, touching $13.6 billion in 2004, up by 79% over the total trade volume of 2003. India enjoyed a comfortable trade surplus of $1.75 billion, according to Chinese customs statistics. If growth remains at current levels, India-China trade could cross $17 billion by the end of 2004-05. In contrast, India's trade with the United States - its largest trading partner - has grown by just over 23% in April-August 2004. Indeed, there is an increasing comfort level, with India discounting Chinese influence in Nepal after the royal coup there on February 1 and the dismissal of the democratically elected government.

Economists such as Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen have repeatedly stressed that the rising military expenditure imposes substantial opportunity costs on government priorities such as health and education. According to defense analyst K Subhramanyam, "Modernizing the armed forces does not necessarily mean just adding inventories of the latest hardware ... Unplanned acquisition of hardware without appropriate defense planning based on sound assessment of threat may lead to large-scale avoidable expenditure."

A comment in The Times of India reads: "New Delhi needs to realize that engaging in a pointless arms race with Pakistan serves little purpose. So long as Pakistan remains under authoritarian rule, its defense budget will remain disproportionately high. But that does not mean India needs to match every Ghauri [type of ballistic missile] with an Agni. India enjoys a considerable edge over Pakistan by dint of the sheer size of its armed forces ... As for China, New Delhi is much better off trying to match Beijing's economic growth than its military might. However, the best argument for pulling out of an arms race is that social development and economic growth are the best defense for any nation."

While few would claim that India's armed forces should not be modernized, it is important to pace the process in a way that there is a definite but sure increment without a disproportionate chunk of government funds being siphoned away from equally important needs - the social sector, which affects the welfare of people the most.

40% Hike Which means Indian Military Budget would be staggering 23 Billion Dollars approx.
On source Suggests that 17% which means Budget would be at 20 Billion Dollars
Last year India hiked 22% but still is 2.5% of GDP.
I suggest most of new Money must be Spent on Missile Defence.
India Badly needs Missile Defence Systems.
The only development in Missile defence from 7 years was buying two Greenpine Early Warning Radars from Israel.

It would be possible to justify the 20 Billion Dollar Budget becoz Indias Shopping list is very Big.
They Immediately have to sign two big deals,125 AC Deal and the Scorpene.

Yet to be procured are the Missile Defence Systems,Nuclear Submarine,new Warships and also number of other upgrades.

Army's MBT Fleet is in not such good situation,Delay in T-72 Upgrade,Arjun Problems and have to immediately retire the old T-55 and Viickers MBT.


 

adsH

New Member
ajay_ijn said:
A comment in The Times of India reads: "New Delhi needs to realize that engaging in a pointless arms race with Pakistan serves little purpose. So long as Pakistan remains under authoritarian rule, its defense budget will remain disproportionately high. But that does not mean India needs to match every Ghauri [type of ballistic missile] with an Agni. India enjoys a considerable edge over Pakistan by dint of the sheer size of its armed forces
If we’ve learned anything from History is that Size hardly ever Matter when faced with a tactically sound Foe. Caesar defeated the adversary at Gaul even when faced with the Odd of being out numbered 5:1. There is a reason why Indian Armed forces feel they need expansion. They aren't Sound when it comes to effectiveness in conflicts there fore they need sheer numbers to over whelm the adversary. If you look at the Indian Armed forces they out number Pakistan in terms of resources and overall strength yet they choose to increase there strength in number for the short term and in terms of quality over long-term. China will never openly go to war with India since they love themselves too much.



The point being Caesar was an excellent Military Leader he knew his forces, he knew there weakness numbers. And he used the quality of his forces and logistical availability to his advantage. The Roman Armies were sound in engineering, communication; C&C etc. these things are still relevant to modern-day war fare. That’s the reason why many top Military School still study this particular War strategy in detail.

 

indianguy4u

New Member
rationale behind buying 124 light AC for hefty sum of 6-7 billion$

i cannot understand why we are buying it and for so much amt . its mind bogling b'coz 140 su-30mki cost us just more than 3.5 billion $ then why such a premium on those AC which is inferior to our su-30. well reason given is that AF want to replace those MIGS which r not being upgraded to bisons but it is ridicoulous amt really if we invest 1-1.25 billion$ in our LCA in collabroration with isreal we can develope a potent AC in its class as well cost appro. 20 million apecie .instead what shitless thing we do buy more , when r the ppl in power (bureacracts) understand we have to stand up on our legs & break our shackles of purchasing ready made stuffs
 

aaaditya

New Member
india needs to replace 400+mig21's and 200+mig23's immediately and jaguars(100+in the near future) india wants to buy western aircraft because even though they are expensive they have lower operating cost and an excellent safety record(mirage2000 being a single engine aircraft has fewer crashes than mig29 which is a twin engine aircraft and that too mainly due to the carelessness of the technical crews) also mirage2000 has shown excellent performance during the kargil which realy impressed the air force top brass.by the way the airforce earlier rejected the mirage 2000-5 in favour of the su-30 due to its high cost\unit however after the kargil war they became aware of the excellent capabilities of this aircraft(besides the western aircraft except for gripen are all combat proven ,the mig29 though combat proven is inferior in some aspects to the mirage 2000-5).:coffee :D
 

highsea

New Member
Does anyone know the status of the tender? Last month it was reported to be off the table.
MoF denial for more funds puts aircraft deal on hold

HUMA SIDDIQUI
Posted online: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 at 0000 hours IST

NEW DELHI, FEB 22: The defence ministry has put on hold its plan to purchase 126 fighter aircraft after the finance ministry turned down its request of 40% additional expenditure for defence purchases.

This has come as a surprise to many in defence circles as defence minister Pranab Mukherjee had at the recently concluded Aero India in Bangalore talked about the Request for Proposal (RFP) that had gone to Russia for the modern version of MiG-29s, Dassault Mirage-2000, Lockheed Martin F-16s from US and SAAB Gripen from Sweden.

India requires the new aircraft to replace its ageing Mig 21 bis, which are gradually being withdrawn from the IAF. Conceived as part of a general decrease in the IAF fighter fleet, from 39 squadrons to 30, withdrawal of older MiG types has already begun. In case the Budget outlay is raised by 18-20% a chunk of this hike will go for financing the salary increase of armed forces officers after the implementation of Ajai Vikram Singh report, sources in the government told FE.

Sources pointed out that the purchase of the fighters is likely to be delayed beyond two years as the order for French ‘Scorpene’ submarines for the Indian Navy, pending for over four years, needs to be awarded on urgent basis.

The leasing of Akula class nuclear-powered submarine from Russia would also be out on hold. This submarines was to be leased for 10 years. The submarine, which belongs to Russia’s most advanced Akula-II class costs $1.7 billion.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=83360
 

vicky007

New Member
US offers co-production of F-18 and Nuclear Reactors to India.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1062590.cms


NEW DELHI: In a dramatic decision, the United States on Friday night offered the co-production of F-18 fighter jets to India.

This follows the US decision to sell a number of F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan. Indian would be licensed by the United States to produce at least six times the number of planes that would have been sold to Pakistan.

The F-18 Hornets is a two-engined long-range tactical strike aircraft and is superior to the F-16. In the United States, the F-18 is the mainstay of the US Naval airpower. The F-18 can cover several thousand miles for bombing operations and in terms of speed and manoeuvrability; it is far superior to the F-16.

In another decision, the United States has agreed to help India's civilian nuclear programme with the possible sale of nuclear reactors that would be used to generate electricity.

The nuclear energy was one of the major subjects that were discussed between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice during her recent visit to New Delhi. Although Pentagon has not make known the parameters for sale of nuclear technology to India, informed sources said that it will be worked out shortly.
 
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kilo_4que

New Member
Re: US offers co-production of F-18 to India.

is there any evidence of this via international sources such as AFM, Janes or news from cnn, mbc, bbc ...
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Re: US offers co-production of F-18 to India.

Not that I know of. Only Times of India is reporting this news... true or not, it is unlikely that India will go for this offer.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: US offers co-production of F-18 to India.

This is getting realy creepy & odd. When Pakistan tried to get Gripens, Indian media reported that USA has offered India joint production of F-16s now when USA is selling Pakistan F-16s, Indian media is reporting joint production on F-18s with India.

F-18s are superioir AirCrafts, I doubt USA will offer its production to any country that is not the user of the product (e.g: Turkey) . It is also highly unlikely that USA will pass a technology to country that is close to Russia. Selling F-18s could still be relavent.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: US offers co-production of F-18 and Nuclear Reactors to India.

vicky007 said:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1062590.cms


NEW DELHI: The F-18 Hornets is a two-engined long-range tactical strike aircraft and is superior to the F-16.
Ignorance!! the F-16 belongs to a different Class of AC you can't compare Apples and Oranges , you can develop a likeing for one of them or possibly both, depends on you nutritional requirements.

It would be interesting to see India Co-produce this Weapon system, it would certainly put allot of strain on IAF's already Strained Budget and Resources allocated for maintenance.
 

avj

New Member
Re: US offers co-production of F-18 to India.

india's not making its decision in a hurry in any case- it took 18 years for the hawks
 

adsH

New Member
Re: US offers co-production of F-18 to India.

avj said:
india's not making its decision in a hurry in any case- it took 18 years for the hawks
Point being they wont buy these these are empty Offers from the US to support there notion of Equality with allies. INda Has Superior AC of the same class and they didn't come cheap the SU series
 
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