Ideas that might help secure our troops?

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think unlike in the early phase of the Iraq adventure good body armor is normal by now.

And what do you mean by "armor support". Better protected vehicles (exchanging Humvees with Bushmasters, Dingos, etc) comes to my mind or more heavy backup with tanks and IFVs?
 

Chrom

New Member
I think unlike in the early phase of the Iraq adventure good body armor is normal by now.

And what do you mean by "armor support". Better protected vehicles (exchanging Humvees with Bushmasters, Dingos, etc) comes to my mind or more heavy backup with tanks and IFVs?
I think better protected vehicles are absolutely necessary in Iraq. Tanks however are not that usefull outside of "hot" phase. Also i think USA need much better IED recognition/protection on EVERY tank and IFV. USA definitly have enouth money for that...
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Tanks are also usefull after the hot phase.
Despite all this talking about killing tanks they are still the hardest target to destroy on patrols.
And they work just fine as backup and rescue force if the shit hits the fan and a light patrol is pinned down.
 

Chrom

New Member
Tanks are also usefull after the hot phase.
Despite all this talking about killing tanks they are still the hardest target to destroy on patrols.
And they work just fine as backup and rescue force if the shit hits the fan and a light patrol is pinned down.
Tanks are certainly usefull and so on. But they are much too expencive (logistic) to use on regular patrol. And they damage streets...

Using HUMVEE's is the real shame for USA army. It is just unacceptable to send soldiers to war in such badly protected, weak armored vehicle.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I totally agree that they are not usefull for normal patrol duty just for high risk patrols and backup operations like I mentioned.

As to damaging streets. Normal streets are not really affected by western tanks due to rubber pads.
Russian ones without rubber pads on the other hand...
 

Chrom

New Member
I totally agree that they are not usefull for normal patrol duty just for high risk patrols and backup operations like I mentioned.

As to damaging streets. Normal streets are not really affected by western tanks due to rubber pads.
Are you really believe that? What 65 t vehicle dont affect streets?
Rubber pads may reduce damage effect - but it is still noticeable.
Russian ones without rubber pads on the other hand...
Ya, russian ones without rubber are real killer for any road.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Are you really believe that? What 65 t vehicle dont affect streets?
Rubber pads may reduce damage effect - but it is still noticeable.
Ya, russian ones without rubber are real killer for any road.
The roads in Western Europe are designed to take heavy armored vehicles, the same can be said in South Korea and most places in the Middle East. In the U.S this would be a different matter due to using asphalt.
 

Chrom

New Member
The roads in Western Europe are designed to take heavy armored vehicles, the same can be said in South Korea and most places in the Middle East. In the U.S this would be a different matter due to using asphalt.
Europa also use asphalt on 99% of they roads.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Tanks have been roadmarched in germany since many decades. Normal streets don't really suffer from tanks roadmarching them.

The pressure is not that big and the rubberpads prevent destruction of the street.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Europa also use asphalt on 99% of they roads.
Asphalt in Europe is thicker then what we use, we would never roadmarch tanks down highways or city streets due to this. In Michigan U.S.A for example it is a challenge to get all the potholes filled in after a good winter. Using salt for slick streets doesn`t help with this also.
 

Sgt.Banes

New Member
I think unlike in the early phase of the Iraq adventure good body armor is normal by now.

And what do you mean by "armor support". Better protected vehicles (exchanging Humvees with Bushmasters, Dingos, etc) comes to my mind or more heavy backup with tanks and IFVs?
By better armor support I mean improved vehicles, and better armored plated Humvees. And with the body armor, I'd feel a lot more secure with a dragon skin on than a regular Kevlar vest or flack jacket. Though these insurgents and other terrorist groups mainly use bombs and explosives to get attention, they still may use the tactic of shootouts.
 

RSM

New Member
Keeping Harry alive is a priority which equates to all troops , but when opportunity

IED's or mines are demoralising to the effect that they hardly ever kill all the occupants of a armoured vehicle. The demoralising effect it has on your own troops when needing to remove the screaming wounded from a burning or stricken vehicle under fire is an experience that you would prefer to avoid , trust me. It is for the above fact that these are the weapons of choice of insurgents who then happily meanders off into the night, knowing that the locals pops will give then detailed feedback. It's difficult to control, but there is a relatively cheap solution , the very reliable Caspir made in South Africa. It beats the cleats out of any Humvee and is designed for desert bashing.
The grill is excellent for the odd snap barby and the vehicle is fast! Look at http://www.janes.com/defence/land_f... of the squad... When opportunity knocks.....
 

metro

New Member
Metro, your post about Israel is so wrong I can't even be bothered fully rebutting it.
Very sophisticated argument!
I'll just leave it there.

Those cities that are 'creating problems for us' are filled with innocent civilians, who im sure would object to their homes being flooded with water.
Yes, "Innocent Civillians Everywhere and Not One Guilty Cilvillian Can be Found."
If you rather lawyers fight the wars, I'm not taking your idea. But they'll play word games all day. Their so inured to hearing another "objection" it goes in one ear and out another.

-Yes, the purpose of flooding a city is to here all the objections. However, it is only water, not napalm.
-Instead of going into a city, force the people to come out.
-It's a good tactic to fight on their land.
-It's not a good tactic to allow the enemy to use his/her territory to their advantage.
-Deny the enemy free and easy movement.
-If women an children come walking out, wading through water up to their knees, likewise, men will find it noisy and difficult to run from house to house.
-Take Care of the Women and children (Don't pay CASH).
-When they complain that, "we're all innocent civillians," say "sorry," sometimes bad things happen to the "best people."
-Ask if they compensated. "yes". You must get all of your fellow "innocent civillians" to come out and file a complaint.
We'll inspect your claims, but if their are "guilty civillians who fire at us, we will shred all claims.

-Obviously, weapons caches will surface like a grave does in a cemetary. The bad guys will have to fight, if they want, with no food for a few days and in an area that now looks foreign to them.
-No IEDs, Car Bombs, hidden AT Shells, etc...
-For those who want to go out with a bang, let them go up on the roof, with the little ammo they have and deal with apaches'.

-No More Guilty Civillians. Perhaps, a cement floor in th dessert won't dry? The prople can get refunded for legit claims as long as they don't allow "guilty civillians" to enter.

-Either you can understand the concept on not. Fighting assymetric warfare while bound by laws written 50 years ago, is a disastor waiting to happen.

Also, how are the Israelis going to distribute that faulty ammo to the terrorists?
-Since I'm not going to tell you how to smuglle weapons, it's too difficult (on their scale anyway), I'd basically hand it to them. Give them a $50M aid package. Send a bunch of cntainers with food and whatever in the front and a limited amount of "faulty ammo") in large boxes at the back of the container.
-I'm sure you could figure it out.

And i'm not sure, but for a second I thought you were suggesting flooding Iraq with a few inches of water... wait, that can't be right can it?
-I didn't say not to.

-In Iraq, I think armored vehicles that have water cannons and/or flame retardent cannons, could help a whole lot. Obvios reasons.



Look, if it were as easy as you were suggesting we would have done it years ago. For instance, if Israel somehow flooded Lebanon in order to ruin the hezbollah weapons that are in the ground, then im sure the hezbollah would quickly move their weapons inside or up a hill or something. Now the flooding serves no purpose, and has ruined the every day lives of thousands of civilians. Thats just not a feasable idea.
-It's very feasable and all to simple, did you see what happened in New Orleans?
-Were people moving anywhere? No, they had to "surrendor."
-Have you ever seen a moat around a castle (something that should be done outside gaza's wall).
-And their homes/country aren't being destroyed (which happens).

-I never said anything would be simple. I'm sure you've lived in the area as I have. The fact is, going tit-for-tat with an asymmetrical enemy, is just a function of time before losing.
Asymmetry, is an infinite force multiplier as we won't use or "superior technology."
-Instead of playing the circular game, "we upgrade our armor, again, they figure out how to defeat it in a week" (money well spent)?

(them : US)
Tactics: (1 : 0)
Tech. (.00001 : 1,000,000,0000)

MULTIPLY THEIR COLUM, AND THEN OURS.
WE=0 (Lose)

-as for hizbollah running to get their weapons, if you want sitting ducks, there they are!

war's not fair, and both sides will have objections afterwards.

I don't know if you've seen that 60 minute Gracie fight, but what he does is take away the opponants "game plan" and puts constant but subtle pressure on his "enemy." Gracie either uses no energy and makes someone submit, or he takes control and allows the "other guy" to expend all he has... eventually Gracie wins.

I've always felt surprise works the best, today we challange someone "to a dual"?!?!

enough for now. i hope you understand what i'm getting at...
i apologize for grammer/spelling... it's way past my bed-time.
 

RSM

New Member
Insomuch as military tactics are revised and implemented one golden lesson, which was ingrained to me as a non commissioned officer was the principle of one foot on the ground, ALWAYS. Let me explain. Tactics which are subsequent to strategies are there to save lives.

This is what any worker in any factory would do within the parameters of safety regulations and rules created to prevent promote occupational health and increase safety. What impacts on a soldier how ever is ethics which relates to rules of engagement.

Let’s talk about the military or operational environment first. Yes; overall it must be rendered safe by workers (soldiers) whom not only needs to look out for number one but relies heavily on all members of the team to ensure that safety net exits, that the operational effectiveness is maintained and that strategies are maintained in support of the “business plan”.

“The golden lesson”; The principle of the “invisible” golf umbrella up the barrel of your rifle. This umbrella is of course “open” and the imaginary shaft is rammed down the barrel of your personal weapon. The unfurled, albeit invisible part indicates the areas of responsibility, which does not put too much strain on the periphery of the eye.
This ensures that all the other “invisible” umbrellas are pointed to the sources of potential danger with the added advantage of overlap. Especially in situations of urban warfare troops are now directly responsible for protecting the backs of their fellow combatants. Its reassures all parties, but ensures that the burden of responsibility is omnipresent.

Battle hardened troops eventually learn this instinctively as they did in Belfast (Para’s) as well as South Africa where urban warfare in the late 80’s early 90’s escalated to “interesting” proportions. The presence armour as a form of protection should be supportive of the principle and care should be taken that armour does not make troops reluctant to observe their environment with resolute interest. Dire lessons are learned when tired or battle tired troops are at the receiving end of a Molotov cocktail rolled into their vehicle by an untrained guerrilla who merely seizes the moment. Rules of engagement is now applicable since the soldier will have the flexibility of making a weighed decision very fast i.e. whether he should fire or not. In my experience the chance that troops will engage the enemy properly, in stead of firing back blindly in retribution or as a knee jerk reaction will diminish.
I for one realise that the flack webbing you are wearing is making you sweat. Yes it’s damn hot! (You should try South Angola) and damn, a cold Coke will go down well. That lapse in a moment’s concentration as well as the group becoming careless has meant that the unit chaplain has had to inform many a parent about their son’s death or being maimed seriously.

The above is but one of the small principles which may be applied to a myriad of situations and may certainly save lives. Obvious perhaps, but should be enforced religiously by non-coms and officers alike.

BASICS SAVES LIVES!!
 

metro

New Member
Asphalt in Europe is thicker then what we use, we would never roadmarch tanks down highways or city streets due to this. In Michigan U.S.A for example it is a challenge to get all the potholes filled in after a good winter. Using salt for slick streets doesn`t help with this also.
(LOL). I think our roads in michigan could tear a tank apart. some of our annual potholes are actually more like sinkholes! well, the consturction companies have a a good deal going. "Please excuse the contuction (again) on all roads... have a great day"! it's crazy.;)
 

RSM

New Member
Good morning. Have a look at the Reumech website, with specific reference to the Casper APC. One can see why the UN are using them...
 

jconners

Banned Member
Brainstorming:

1. Continuous day/night photo (and other sensory detectors) recon by remotely controlled unmanned aircraft of routes prior to troop movement...and interpretaton of data;
2. Route recon by ground robotic devices (photo and other sensory detectors) prior to troop movement...and interpretation of data;
3. Continued improvement of full body armor for personnel;
4. Continued improvement of vehicle carrier protection design and construction;
5. Continued improvement of instant response medical treatment...including portable 'full life support pod' and capability to preserve body parts.
 

RSM

New Member
Very good suggestions J Conners and may I add;
1) Troops to be put in mock leadership positions for purposes of debriefing.
This makes all realise mistakes and ensuring that positive solutions are
sought.
2) Ensure that the maintenace of equipment becomes a group thing and not
a designated thing. This ensures that everyone is at least partially on the
same page as far as the working of the more sophisticated equipment is
concerned .
3) Crash course on East Block or enemy weaponry. You never know when
you may need it. At least most will know how to render a captured weapon
safe.
4) Drivers crash course for everyone? Drivers are prime targets. So we are
under fire and the driver has been wounded. Now what?
5) So the leadergroup has been shot. What do we do now?
 

merocaine

New Member
Brainstorming:

1. Continuous day/night photo (and other sensory detectors) recon by remotely controlled unmanned aircraft of routes prior to troop movement...and interpretaton of data;
2. Route recon by ground robotic devices (photo and other sensory detectors) prior to troop movement...and interpretation of data;
3. Continued improvement of full body armor for personnel;
4. Continued improvement of vehicle carrier protection design and construction;
5. Continued improvement of instant response medical treatment...including portable 'full life support pod' and capability to preserve body parts.
All good suggestions, but they are all reactive actions aimed at keeping your troops safe, rather than keeping the enemy on the backfoot.
They might help you keep your convoys safer but there not going to pressurise the enemy.
 
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