How would PAF deal with the possible threat from indian Su-30mki?

[ajay_ijn]

Some people like Kids......... Well howcome you agree with a person who claims that My Vintage MIG 21 Plane can beat F22 ...........isn't sound stupid ?
Well even you can talk about technically ............ to can check for yourself ......

1) Radar Range:
Su30 MKI : 350+ Km dection range and 200 Km Tracking Range
F16 : 150+ Km detaction Range

BVR, Head-to-Head:
The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2
The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2

Maximum effective detective Range:

• AN/APG-68 V5: 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target
• AN/APG-68 V9: 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target
• AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target

• N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target
• N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target
• N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target
• NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"

Source : (AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)


​

Theoretically, then

• The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.

• The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.
• The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

Result : Only Latest Block 60 AN/APG -80 Radar Can Match Currently Su-30 MKI's, NO11M Radar in Range.


2) Number of Targers Dections :

• SU 30 MKI Radar can track and engage 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously.
• F 16- ???? Plese Help ...

3) Operation Ce Heigh :

• Su 30 : 18000 m
• F16 : 16000 m

Result : SU 30 can operate out of Range of F16. So F16 can't target Su 30.

4) Speed :

• Su30 : 2.35 Mach
• F 16 : 2.0 Mach

5) Armaments A2A) Only

• Su 30 : AA-12 / R-77 , Range : (90 km (R-77), 175 km (R-77M1)
• 30 mm Gun

• F16 : AIM- 120 , Range : 50 Km ( medium Range A2A Missile)
• 20mm Gun

http://en.wikipedia.org
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/su30/

Result : SU 30 Can launch BVR missile much before F 16 , So it can take F16 at safer distance.



Now i don't know who people can make tall claims ............

Agreed Su-30MKI beats F-16 in some situations but not all.

It heavily depends on platforms like AWACS,
For example Phalcon operating in amritsar(punjab) can detect F-16 as soon as its takes off from saragodha AFB.
With that Capability its AWACS which dominate Air Battles.

Result : SU 30 Can launch BVR missile much before F 16 , So it can take F16 at safer distance.

If range was the only issue,then US might have armed F-16s with Phoenix.


F-16 has very powerful EW Systems,they can jam radars and Missiles too.
So a Missile lauched by MKI can be jammed by F-16.


At the same time AMRAAM has very high ECCM Capability,They have home on to jam capability,so they have chance to hit MKI.


The radar ranges u posted will vary according to the Altitude and some other factors.

Result : Only Latest Block 60 AN/APG -80 Radar Can Match Currently Su-30 MKI's, NO11M Radar in Range.

Again ur forgetting one thing,Russians are far behind in electronics compared to US or europe,thats why India used western avionics in MKI.
Range is not the only issue here.
I don't know indetail about Airborne Radars but I can assure u range is the only issue here.

The point is, Ajay, that the PAF would also be using BVR missiles. And very good ones, at that. the "MKI" after the number does not make the AC invulnerable to an AMRAAM, I can assure you.
I am quite sure that the IAF does not discount the F-16, the AC's combat record speaks for itself.

High sea ,Is it sure that PAF will get AMRAAM,
Will US be ready to give PAF such highly capable weapon.(they may allow china to access such weapon)

 

[highsea]

SU-30, I am referringto the F-16's combat record, not a single engagement. F-16 is 70-0 in A2A engagements (excluding the accidental fratricide, which was not an A2A engagement).

wrt your assumptions- Yes, I have read toan's post on F-16.net. Be aware- the RCS value he used was for block 40/42, the current version with all the treatments is about 1/4 of that. You are also taking the low end of the SU-30's RCS estimate. Convenient for your argument, but optimistic at the very least.

Your asumption that the SU-30 can operate out of the F-16's range is not valid, since the AMRAAM can target AC well above 60,000 feet- above the SU-30's combat ceiling. And the F-16 is only certified to 60,000 feet- they have flown considerably higher, but the flight controls and weapons have not been certified for it due to cost issues.

Detection ranges- I wil not post actual values on an open forum, but the assumption that doubling the RCS only gives a 10-15% improvement in range is erroneous. And the numbers you quote for APG-80 are low. Even if they were correct, they are still outside the Rmax for the R-77, so it's irrelavent.

Missiles- Vympel quotes the range for the RVV-AE (which is the version India uses) at 50km (due to datalink range),and the seeker at 16km for a 5m^2 target. This assumes a Mach 1.5 launch at 30,000 feet, against a closing target doing the same thing. This is unrealistic, since fighters do not fly around on AB power. The range quoted for the AMRAAM is based on a Mach 0.9 launch, which is a much more realistic launch parameter.

The seeker and computer in the AMRAAM is considered by most everyone as being substantially superior to the R-77, with the latter being on a par with the AIM-7. AMRAAM also uses a lofted trajectory, which gives better kinematic performance in the teriminal maneuver phase, and a better look at the target (top-down). R-77 flies a basic kinetic intercept, and the pk should be no better than AIM-7 due to the seeker and electonics (~0.3 vs. ~0.85).

As I said already, you are welcome to discount the F-16- I doubt the IAF shares your views. Money talks- bullshit walks. The F-16/AMRAAM is a proven combination.

High sea ,Is it sure that PAF will get AMRAAM,
Will US be ready to give PAF such highly capable weapon.(they may allow china to access such weapon)

Nothing is sure at this point. I expect them to get AIM-120B. wrt China, there will be safeguards in place.

Also AWCAS which is on te way can also detact F-16 as soon as it turn own its engine on the runway.

Yeah, right..

Please, spare us the hyperbole. This is a serious forum.

 

[XEROX]

Money talks- bullshit walks

LoL


highsea were all resigned to the fact the PAF is getting F-16s, but what is the growth potential, of lets say a block 52

meanwhile can anyone confirm if the MKIs will be using the IBRIS active passive phased-array airborne radar for phase 2 or phase 3 MKIs

 

[ajay_ijn]

LoL
highsea were all resigned to the fact the PAF is getting F-16s, but what is the growth potential, of lets say a block 52
meanwhile can anyone confirm if the MKIs will be using the IBRIS active passive phased-array airborne radar for phase 2 or phase 3 MKIs

whats IBRIS.
MKI is having NO11M Bars Radars know.

 

[XEROX]

IBRIS is the replacment for the N011M with a greater range and tracking ability, its in development with a russian company and DRDOs LRDE i wouldnt be suprised if its in the PAK-FA

 

[highsea]

highsea were all resigned to the fact the PAF is getting F-16s, but what is the growth potential, of lets say a block 52

Well, there is not much in the way of extra space in an F-16, so any further improvements will have to come in the form of better computers, ECM/EW, RA coatings, impoved weapons, etc.

 

[SU 30MKI]

SU-30, I am referringto the F-16's combat record, not a single engagement. F-16 is 70-0 in A2A engagements (excluding the accidental fratricide, which was not an A2A engagement).

Well can u elobrate a single one to one engagement in which F16 is faced with equal opponent ?? everytime they are powered by AWACS , and only faced anitique planes. This is how F16 got 70- A2A engagements.

I gave the Mig29 ex, like this PAF shot Su22 Bomber plane etc, so F16 Shot planes which don't have A2A missile capability and also a vintage plane. You count 7 on this.

Like this ..they got 70-0 record, well this is not a great achievent. espacially if you Racing with you 100 CC bike with foruma 1 car. and claims that evey time fourmula 1 wins we have record.

test of any planes comes when it has to match it equal, in equal environment, then u have say it has record.

Mod editath: Forum rule #15 Proper punctuation is a must. Do not add excessive dots as a replacement for a comma. I have edited your post this time but I will delete it without warning should you do that again.

 

[highsea]

test of any planes comes when it has to match it equal, in equal environment...............then u have say it has record.

That has nothing to do with warfighting. It's not about Marcus of Queensbury- it's about killing the opponent as quickly and efficiently as possible. That's something the F-16 has done 70 times without losing once. You can make up all the excuses you want- we've heard them all. It doesn't matter, because so far, not one single pilot that has challenged the F-16 in the air has succeeded to defeat it.

That's called a combat record. IOW, The real world. It has nothing to do with simulations, paper comparisons, sales brochures, or "my plane is better than your plane" arguments made by kids and armchair Air Marshalls on the Internet.

 

[pshamim]

of any planes comes when it has to match it equal, in equal environment...............then u have say it has record.

Agree. No point in comparing a palne with a proven record against one that has 0 record.

We at least know about f-16 how it will react in a given situation. With SU-30MK1, having no combat experience, will be big disadvantage. Remember experience counts.

Once SU-30 does gain the experience, it may turn out to be a superior a/c but until then.....

 

[ajay_ijn]

Well can u elobrate a single one to one engagement in which F16 is faced with equal opponent ?? everytime they are powered by AWACS , and only faced anitique planes. This is how F16 got 70- A2A engagements.

That is how war is fought,
If F-16 has shot down some Aircraft,Its just not due to Plane.

Its due to the AWACS which provided it warning and guidance.
Its due to the Tanker which provided fuel.
Its due the pliot.
Its due the AAM.
Its due Mechanics who maintained F-16 well.
Its due to the commander who guided his pilots and developed good tactics.
Its due to the Lockheed who developed such a good design
Its Trainer who trained the pliot well.
Its due to the satellite which provided it navigation etc.
Its due to the sensors which provided situational awareness.

Without any of these, for F-16 to perform well is not possible.
Becoz US provides all these services well,They had such a good combat record.

While an F-16 Fighter is the hands of a Bad user can perform badly.
Bad user here i meant who fails to use the aircraft effectively

Platform Multipliers,Support Aircraft,Good Subsystems/sensors,Networking etc everything needs to be good for the fighter plane to perform well.

Not to forget Good Tactics are most important,even more important than skill.

When Su-30MKI has all these qualities,then it is sure to dominate the enemy skies.

 

[SU 30MKI]

That has nothing to do with warfighting. It's not about Marcus of Queensbury- it's about killing the opponent as quickly and efficiently as possible. That's something the F-16 has done 70 times without losing once. You can make up all the excuses you want- we've heard them all. It doesn't matter, because so far, not one single pilot that has challenged the F-16 in the air has succeeded to defeat it.

That's called a combat record. IOW, The real world. It has nothing to do with simulations, paper comparisons, sales brochures, or "my plane is better than your plane" arguments made by kids and armchair Air Marshalls on the Internet.

Excuses, wow, if you calling shooting down the An32 with F16 a record , then i can't do anything, i accept that it may be record for you. It matter becasue non of he A2A combat taken place without ACWAS and with equal generation plane.

What will you say about the incident when Mirage shot down Turk F16 in 1996 ?

 

[SABRE]

Excuses, wow, if you calling shooting down the An32 with F16 a record , then i can't do anything, i accept that it may be record for you. It matter becasue non of he A2A combat taken place without ACWAS and with equal generation plane.

What will you say about the incident when Mirage shot down Turk F16 in 1996 ?

Ahhm....SU-30MKI, so what u realy want to emply here is that any thing PAF has n buys is total crap. Any thing USA makes is crap but lucky. Any thing India has n buys is superior, any thing Russians make is Superior. Than I believe that if India declares today that it will buy F-16s than tomorrow you would come out saying that F-16s are the most superior fighters in the world. Even if am wrong thats the impression you are giving.

Atleast F-16 has a record for shooting down 70 AC (70 recorded, God knows there may be others). Not only it has record of 70 shoot downs it has also successfuly accomplished its mission on ground attacks + they have records of shooting down UAVs by almost all user countries (I am just pointing out UAVs..they dnt realy matter in as they are non combatents). Although it is not recorded or officialy reported but it was said that F-16 did shoot down a MiG-29 in Serbian war (not reported so not to be counted).

Abt F-16s n AWACs....we dint have AWACs when we got them, we still dnt (atleast not right now, deal is going on with Swedes). We still shot down Russian & Afghan AirCrafts. Israel was also one of the 1st two put F-16 in action & I dnt believe they used any AWACs 1st time on F-16. Only USA & NATO I believe have been using AWACs with F-16s.

On the other hand whats the record of Mirage2000? MiG-29? Su-30MKI?

I'll give Mirage (Greek) a point on shooting down Turk F-16 but it is still debatable. Turks say it was an accident, Greeks provided pics. Some experts called those pics fake others called it true.

If u notic that very very few ppl talk against ACs. Mirage2000 are good aircrafts. Right up there in the league of F-16s & if it did shoot down F-16 than the F-16 was atleast killed by a worth opponent. But that still doesnt prove Mirage's superiority over F-16 n(nor does any thing prove F-16 superior to Mirage2000). But minus the battle mode, Mirage2000 loses to F-16 in various departments. e.g; maintainance, cost.

As far as I know Su-30 with out AWACs can fall into deep trouble. Now we all know that Su-30 is not an inferior AC. But its not that superior either. Its not invinceble. Besides it has ZERO combat experiance.

In the end, dont u think that you have dragged the discussion away from the topic? BTW we dont challange HighSea & gf-aust007.

 

[ashblackhawk]

Ahhm....SU-30MKI, so what u realy want to emply here is that any thing PAF has n buys is total crap. Any thing USA makes is crap but lucky. Any thing India has n buys is superior, any thing Russians make is Superior. Than I believe that if India declares today that it will buy F-16s than tomorrow you would come out saying that F-16s are the most superior fighters in the world. Even if am wrong thats the impression you are giving.

Atleast F-16 has a record for shooting down 70 AC (70 recorded, God knows there may be others). Not only it has record of 70 shoot downs it has also successfuly accomplished its mission on ground attacks + they have records of shooting down UAVs by almost all user countries (I am just pointing out UAVs..they dnt realy matter in as they are non combatents). Although it is not recorded or officialy reported but it was said that F-16 did shoot down a MiG-29 in Serbian war (not reported so not to be counted).

Abt F-16s n AWACs....we dint have AWACs when we got them, we still dnt (atleast not right now, deal is going on with Swedes). We still shot down Russian & Afghan AirCrafts. Israel was also one of the 1st two put F-16 in action & I dnt believe they used any AWACs 1st time on F-16. Only USA & NATO I believe have been using AWACs with F-16s.

On the other hand whats the record of Mirage2000? MiG-29? Su-30MKI?

I'll give Mirage (Greek) a point on shooting down Turk F-16 but it is still debatable. Turks say it was an accident, Greeks provided pics. Some experts called those pics fake others called it true.

If u notic that very very few ppl talk against ACs. Mirage2000 are good aircrafts. Right up there in the league of F-16s & if it did shoot down F-16 than the F-16 was atleast killed by a worth opponent. But that still doesnt prove Mirage's superiority over F-16 n(nor does any thing prove F-16 superior to Mirage2000). But minus the battle mode, Mirage2000 loses to F-16 in various departments. e.g; maintainance, cost.

As far as I know Su-30 with out AWACs can fall into deep trouble. Now we all know that Su-30 is not an inferior AC. But its not that superior either. Its not invinceble. Besides it has ZERO combat experiance.

In the end, dont u think that you have dragged the discussion away from the topic? BTW we dont challange HighSea & gf-aust007.

I think you are taking point too prematurely. We have not seen French air-force with mirage-2000 & all its support equipments in war with USAF. So its not a good comparision at all. We all know F-16s are good. But look at its combat record against good opponent !! is there any ? not yet so the argument is not valid in broad spectrum. I think russia should use Su-30 against Chechenya to prove its combat record or invade some other nearby small countries with f-16's to prove it combat worthiness. Remember its not the better equipment which always wins, its better tactics which wins the war. I think MiG-29 is a good aircraft as well. Hope russians could make better avionics
:coffee

 

[ashblackhawk]

Any thing India has n buys is superior, any thing Russians make is Superior. Than I believe that if India declares today that it will buy F-16s than tomorrow you would come out saying that F-16s are the most superior fighters in the world. Even if am wrong thats the impression you are giving.

BTW we dont challange HighSea & gf-aust007.

I think countries possessing Su-27,30 only knows what su-27,30 is capable of !! to add a note su-27,30 were flown to take part in paris air show without prior notice and they flew 1500 miles (distance of moscow-paris roughly) with internal fuel only. With awacs, in-flight refueling it can creat havoc in battlefield.
cheers:coffee

 

[highsea]

..Although it is not recorded or officialy reported but it was said that F-16 did shoot down a MiG-29 in Serbian war (not reported so not to be counted).

There were 2 confirmed MiG-29 kills in Serbia by F-16's- one was by a Dutch plane and the other was by an American.

Serbia: 5 MiG-29's downed by US planes (4 F-15C and 1 F-16CJ) plus one MiG-29 downed by a Dutch F-16. All kills were by AIM-120.

Gulf War: 5 MiG-29's shot down, 1 additional MiG-29 forced to crash evading a pursuing F-15.

If someone has a pic or tail number of the Turkish plane, I can look up the official report.

I think countries possessing Su-27,30 only knows what su-27,30 is capable of !!

Well, then the US knows what it is capable of, because we have at least 2 SU-27's at Edwards.

 

[ashblackhawk]

There were 2 confirmed MiG-29 kills in Serbia by F-16's- one was by a Dutch plane and the other was by an American.

Serbia: 5 MiG-29's downed by US planes (4 F-15C and 1 F-16CJ) plus one MiG-29 downed by a Dutch F-16. All kills were by AIM-120.

Gulf War: 5 MiG-29's shot down, 1 additional MiG-29 forced to crash evading a pursuing F-15.

If someone has a pic or tail number of the Turkish plane, I can look up the official report.

Well, then the US knows what it is capable of, because we have at least 2 SU-27's at Edwards.

I think USAF may be aware of most of crafts (if not crafts they certainly know the better war tactics) but not all countries possessing f-16's knows it. . We know the opponent in above both cases they are not sophisticated and might have inferior mig variants.

 

[SABRE]

There were 2 confirmed MiG-29 kills in Serbia by F-16's- one was by a Dutch plane and the other was by an American.

Serbia: 5 MiG-29's downed by US planes (4 F-15C and 1 F-16CJ) plus one MiG-29 downed by a Dutch F-16. All kills were by AIM-120.

Thanks ! now its official

Gulf War: 5 MiG-29's shot down, 1 additional MiG-29 forced to crash evading a pursuing F-15.

Were all 5 shot down by F-15s? & when u say forced what do u mean by that?

I thought F-15s shot down a MiG-25 aswell. May be I missunderstood between MiG-25 & 29.

If someone has a pic or tail number of the Turkish plane, I can look up the official report.

Only one magazine (Greek) in entire world posted the pics showing mark of TUAF/Turkey on the AirCraft (F-16) & I think the pics were not even made available on the net (I have tried to search it many times). The pics showed Mirage-2000 targeting F-16 & than F-16 being crashed (thats what I have read)

The Turks call it inncident & not a battle. I think the Greeks have also excepted it as an inncident. The F-16 (D--two pilots) was on routine flight (2 F-4s were also in escort, I have read) The F-16 was not in battle mode and did not carry much of a weapon (well atleast there werent enough on it to do any great harm to Greece...& the F-4s are said to have no weapons). It was flying near Greece border when a Mirage2000 appeared. The 2nd pilot who lived told that they thought that Greek AC is only here to make sure we dnt cross the lines but in few minuits we were hit by missile.
The Turks asked for compensation for the family of the lost pilotby the Greeks.

(The Greeks tell a different story I think)

Now I dont know if this kill passess for battle point to mirage2000 even though it did shoot down an F-16.

Then number is available with F-16.net (I think) but it would only say the initial report that it crashed because of engine trouble. Even though the AirChief of TUAF have said to accept the Mirage2000 inncident.

I know one AC for sure that shot down an F-16...that AC also happened to be an F-16

 

[pshamim]

The US and Lockheed Martin do not consider shooting down of Turkish F-16 by Greeks as a kill. The F-16 was unarmed, not in the battle mode, and never expected any attack. It was a deliberate and cowardly act by the Greeks. To say that it counts as a "kill" indicates a lack of knowledge of the subject matter by certain members, and I will request that they do a research before posting such statements, and refrain from knee jerk reaction.

 

[highsea]

TWere all 5 shot down by F-15s? & when u say forced what do u mean by that?

IIRC, was a -29 with a -23 wingman, and a pair of F-15's went in to take them out. The -29 accidentally shot his own wingman with a heater, and then flew his plane into the ground trying to evade the F-15. I think we counted that one as a suicide.

 

[highsea]

I thought F-15s shot down a MiG-25 aswell. May be I missunderstood between MiG-25 & 29.

Yes, there was one -25 kill by a F-15, AIM-7, IIRC.

I know one AC for sure that shot down an F-16...that AC also happened to be an F-16

We're not counting boo-boos. :