German Navy

[kato]

The old MZES idea? The Bundeswehr has been reorienting planning in the last couple years towards "National and Alliance Defence" due to external (and internal) pressure, with implementation until 2031. Amphibious power projection is not really a relevant capability in that regard.

The currently valid Capability Profile since 2018 apparently (details classified) projects, with likely distribution:

• 25 combat vessels
  • 3 F124 AAW frigates
  • 4 F123 ASW frigates
  • 4 F126 ASW frigates
  • 4 F125 ASuW frigates
  • 10 K130 ASuW corvettes
• 11 fleet support vessels
  • 6 tenders
  • 2 A707 small logistics ships, oiler
  • 3 A702 small logistics ships, multi-product
• 8 submarines
  • 4 U212A Batch 1 attack submarines
  • 2 U212A Batch 2 attack submarines
  • 2 U212CD attack submarines

Plus unlisted MCM and "secondary function" assets. It is unlikely that the 2020 Capability Profile recently developed changes that.

 

[mariohot]

The old MZES idea? The Bundeswehr has been reorienting planning in the last couple years towards "National and Alliance Defence" due to external (and internal) pressure, with implementation until 2031. Amphibious power projection is not really a relevant capability in that regard.

The currently valid Capability Profile since 2018 apparently (details classified) projects, with likely distribution:

• 25 combat vessels
  • 3 F124 AAW frigates
  • 4 F123 ASW frigates
  • 4 F126 ASW frigates
  • 4 F125 ASuW frigates
  • 10 K130 ASuW corvettes
• 11 fleet support vessels
  • 6 tenders
  • 2 A707 small logistics ships, oiler
  • 3 A702 small logistics ships, multi-product
• 8 submarines
  • 4 U212A Batch 1 attack submarines
  • 2 U212A Batch 2 attack submarines
  • 2 U212CD attack submarines

Plus unlisted MCM and "secondary function" assets. It is unlikely that the 2020 Capability Profile recently developed changes that.

very small ambitions of german navy, only 4 f126....not 6?..no ambitions for blue water navy? that is in collison with ambitions for european power projection

 

[kato]

very small ambitions of german navy, only 4 f126....not 6?

The option for two additional F126 is for after 2031 - and would likely (partially) replace F123 at that point. Similarly F127 (F124 successor, of which the Navy wants significantly more) does not figure into these numbers, as it would not be procured until 2032.

 

[mariohot]

no plans for LHD ships...that is bad

 

[OldTex]

no plans for LHD ships...that is bad

Why is the lack of a German requirement for amphibious warfare vessels bad? The commonly held focus for the German armed forces is to deny the land approaches from the east. The German navy would support that by preventing amphibious flanking movement in the Baltic, with a secondary role of preventing naval forces, especially submarines, forcing passage into the North Sea.

 

[kato]

no plans for LHD ships...that is bad

LHDs (Joint Support Ship project) was deferred to "to be realized as a 'multinational cooperative project'" in 2016.

This is commonly understood to be a - currently unfunded - future joint project with the Netherlands due to the precursor project that currently integrates the German Naval Infantry Battalion into the Dutch Marines as well as associated co-use of Dutch Joint Support Ship Karel Doorman by German Navy and Air Force assets.

Why is the lack of a German requirement for amphibious warfare vessels bad? The commonly held focus for the German armed forces is to deny the land approaches from the east. The German navy would support that by preventing amphibious flanking movement in the Baltic, with a secondary role of preventing naval forces, especially submarines, forcing passage into the North Sea.

To translate from parts of the the "Jährliche Weisung 2021" (Annual Instruction 2021) issued December 17th 2020, i.e. pretty much the state-of-the-navy speech by the Inspector Admiral, the Supreme Commander of the Navy, focus points for the German Navy currently are:

• Targeted optimization for high intensity combat in a multidimensional battlespace especially within the scenario of National and Allied Defense. Reorganize Navy Command in line with this. Establish DEUMARFOR maritime force, including precursor ecercise GRIFFIN MARKER 2022, as a focus project. Aim to obtain Baltic Maritime Coordinator Function within NATO in order to establish the German Navy as regional coordinator for other navies and command chain asset for the Baltic Sea.
• Show visible presence in regions important to German and European security interests; priority in this are seas adjacent to Europe, but also areas corresponding to global economic interests such as the Indian Ocean. Hold assets ready to back up the Indo-Pacific Strategy of the Foreign Office, including realizing a mission of sending a ship to the Indo-Pacific in 2021, postponed from 2020 due to the Pandemic.
• Adapt assets of the navy - incl. personnel - in the coming years to react to evolving new risks (for scenarios), such as conflicts over maritime ressources and maritime law regimes, proliferation, migration.
• Prioritize needs and demands in line with expected reduction of funding availability (due to Covid-19) in order to maintain availability of high-quality assets in sufficient numbers, while establishing that under such circumstances number of assets may be insufficient to fulfill the full demanded spectrum of operations. Retain availability of ready forces for the core functions of national and allied defense as well as international crisis management despite assignment of navy personal to aid missions in the context of the Covid-19 Pandemic.
• Begin establishing reserve forces as an integral component (infantry forces for harbor security etc) to relieve sailors from such functions.

 

[mariohot]

LHDs (Joint Support Ship project) was deferred to "to be realized as a 'multinational cooperative project'" in 2016.

This is commonly understood to be a - currently unfunded - future joint project with the Netherlands due to the precursor project that currently integrates the German Naval Infantry Battalion into the Dutch Marines as well as associated co-use of Dutch Joint Support Ship Karel Doorman by German Navy and Air Force assets.


To translate from parts of the the "Jährliche Weisung 2021" (Annual Instruction 2021) issued December 17th 2020, i.e. pretty much the state-of-the-navy speech by the Inspector Admiral, the Supreme Commander of the Navy, focus points for the German Navy currently are:

• Targeted optimization for high intensity combat in a multidimensional battlespace especially within the scenario of National and Allied Defense. Reorganize Navy Command in line with this. Establish DEUMARFOR maritime force, including precursor ecercise GRIFFIN MARKER 2022, as a focus project. Aim to obtain Baltic Maritime Coordinator Function within NATO in order to establish the German Navy as regional coordinator for other navies and command chain asset for the Baltic Sea.
• Show visible presence in regions important to German and European security interests; priority in this are seas adjacent to Europe, but also areas corresponding to global economic interests such as the Indian Ocean. Hold assets ready to back up the Indo-Pacific Strategy of the Foreign Office, including realizing a mission of sending a ship to the Indo-Pacific in 2021, postponed from 2020 due to the Pandemic.
• Adapt assets of the navy - incl. personnel - in the coming years to react to evolving new risks (for scenarios), such as conflicts over maritime ressources and maritime law regimes, proliferation, migration.
• Prioritize needs and demands in line with expected reduction of funding availability (due to Covid-19) in order to maintain availability of high-quality assets in sufficient numbers, while establishing that under such circumstances number of assets may be insufficient to fulfill the full demanded spectrum of operations. Retain availability of ready forces for the core functions of national and allied defense as well as international crisis management despite assignment of navy personal to aid missions in the context of the Covid-19 Pandemic.
• Begin establishing reserve forces as an integral component (infantry forces for harbor security etc) to relieve sailors from such functions.

you mean that replacement for dutch ships Roterdam and Johhan de Witt will be joint project with german navy?

 

[kato]

you mean that replacement for dutch ships Roterdam and Johhan de Witt will be joint project with german navy?

Possibly, but that's pretty much in the 2030s.

 

[mariohot]

angela m. mentioned few years ago about possibility for european aircraft carrier......just wet dreams or ?

 

[Systems Adict]

angela m. mentioned few years ago about possibility for european aircraft carrier......just wet dreams or ?

I seem to remember that there was a point in time in the mid to late 2000's where the EU / NATO implied that x1 of the x2 carriers being built by the UK would effectively be 'on loan' to Europe. How that was ever gonna work is not something I want to even waste breath on !

However, I doubt it was ever the case that Germany would build their own carrier, as it probably isn't "justifiable". Germany still does need a navy, but her Air Force & Land Army are still (IMHO), more of a priority / would hold more of a balance of power in any continental 'war'.

 

[John Newman]

Bit of news out of the blue:

Germany – P-8A Aircraft and Associated Support | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

The DSCA website is reporting that Germany has been given approval to procure five (5) P-8A for a reported cost of US$1.77b.

If the sale proceeds there will be 19 European based P-8A aircraft, Germany 5, Norway 5, and UK 9, plus Euro based USN aircraft too.

Should allow for the production line to continue a bit longer.

Cheers,

 

[ngatimozart]

Bit of news out of the blue:

Germany – P-8A Aircraft and Associated Support | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

The DSCA website is reporting that Germany has been given approval to procure five (5) P-8A for a reported cost of US$1.77b.

If the sale proceeds there will be 19 European based P-8A aircraft, Germany 5, Norway 5, and UK 9, plus Euro based USN aircraft too.

Should allow for the production line to continue a bit longer.

Cheers,

Well it makes sense because the Marinefleiger is operating 8 ex Dutch P-3C Orions and there is nothing on the market capable of fully replacing the Orion at the moment. I think it may be the death knell of Airbus's mooted A320MPA as well because they would have seen Germany as a cornerstone customer.

 

[StobieWan]

Bit of news out of the blue:

Germany – P-8A Aircraft and Associated Support | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

The DSCA website is reporting that Germany has been given approval to procure five (5) P-8A for a reported cost of US$1.77b.

If the sale proceeds there will be 19 European based P-8A aircraft, Germany 5, Norway 5, and UK 9, plus Euro based USN aircraft too.

Should allow for the production line to continue a bit longer.

Cheers,

That completes the missing part of the puzzle reference Germany abandoning the P3 upgrade program earlier then. Makes sense, buy P8, you get a modern platform, wide support, the aviation package is nigh-identical to the civilian air liner etc.

 

[kato]

There is no budget earmarked for them, it's basically just a "yeah, we'd sell em" acknowledgement from the US. Germany occasionally poses FMS requests lately (on various stuff) as a feeler for how much it'd cost to fulfill some pie-in-the-sky dream within the military, in this case the Navy.

 

[StingrayOZ]

This is true, however options are drying up and it is a fairly logical purchase. I don't see P3's flying until 2035.

While not reading too much into the approval, I would think the P8 is firming up. At least as an interim.
Germany Rejects Japanese P-1 Maritime Patrol Aircraft
Recent UK purchase of P8 and Wedgetail make a lot of sense.

If Germany was to small buy interim P8's (say 3), and wanted to dispose of them in 5-10 years, I am sure that there would be a list of countries that would be interested. By delaying the A320 development slightly, they may create a better market for themselves if the P8 is no longer being produced.

 

[kato]

Given the Admiral in charge of the Navy already stated in his "state of the navy" speech a few months ago that due to budget constraints related to the pandemic "likely some projects will experience a temporary loss of capability"...

... and the P-3C interim replacement is a "wish" of the Navy not underlaid with any sort of budget: Well, you can see where i'm going with that.

It is extremely unlikely (to the point of not even remotely a possibility) that the P-8 would be bought as an interim replacement for P-3C. Especially now that they know it'd cost 1.5 billion Euro,

 

[StingrayOZ]

Yes, that does sound like this is at best an aspirational, the FMS may have been about appeasing American interests.

Given the current environment, cost of operation and potential capability, loosing that capability would be a very poor outcome for a nation like Germany. I would imagine the Americans would be even less pleased. It will be interesting to see how Bidens administration approaches Germany and wider to NATO. There is still leverage in play there. It may be this is an area to work on.

1.5b euro sounds like a reasonable deal for 5 aircraft. In line with deals for Norway or New Zealand. 3 Aircraft of course would be cheaper, and could be arranged on a lease deal. Its clearly a priority thing.

I would imagine that this also doesn't setup the German/French A320 project with much hope either. Why develop a new platform for a capability that you don't have currently and weren't interested in funding? There would be a generational break between old going out and new coming in.

 

[kato]

Yes, that does sound like this is at best an aspirational, the FMS may have been about appeasing American interests.

Doubt that, American interests don't really play any role nowadays (Trump saw to that), and NATO interests while acknowledged tend to have low priority - at least in the Navy.

The official version is: Due to the sought-after interim solution the ministry of defense is currently doing a market inquiry on all available possible models (downselected to P-8, C-295 and ATR-72). This includes gauging the cost, in the case of US models by formally posing a FMS inquiry to get the price (and that FMS process is the only reason this is publicized at all btw).
Airbus will have received a similar inquiry for C-295 MPA, as will have Rheinland Air Service for RAS-72.

 

[Ananda]

That completes the missing part of the puzzle reference Germany abandoning the P3 upgrade program

Curious, with what available in the market trend in term of Turboprop MPA, like the CN235, C295, or ATR 72 as the video above on Leonardo/Aselsan project for Turkey, is it still worth to conduct upgrade for P3 ?

Even the smaller of present gen Turboprop MPA like CN235 can provide loitering patrol times of 11 hours. The capabilities and capacities that Turkish ATR-72 seems already capable enough as P3 replacement.

 

[ngatimozart]

Curious, with what available in the market trend in term of Turboprop MPA, like the CN235, C295, or ATR 72 as the video above on Leonardo/Aselsan project for Turkey, is it still worth to conduct upgrade for P3 ?

Even the smaller of present gen Turboprop MPA like CN235 can provide loitering patrol times of 11 hours. The capabilities and capacities that Turkish ATR-72 seems already capable enough as P3 replacement.

P-3 spares are becoming rare now so it's harder to keep supporting the fleet. When LM announced that they were ceasing supporting the platform after the USN started retiring the type, some users went on a spares buying binge and bought up every spare that they could find. That's why NZ acquired the P-8A a lot earlier than planned. If Germany, and other P-3 users such as Canada, Chile etc., muck around to long they will be left with little choice. The KHI P1 and some twin engine turboprops.