German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?

[kato]

See changes below, yellow color -> bold.

Preliminary specs for the MKS180 have been tossed around and solidified a bit by now. It's gonna be a little brother for the F125. big brother for the F123.

Displacement : up to 5000 tons
Speed : 26 knots max, 18 knots cruise (identical to F125)
Range : 4000 nm at 18 knots in sea state 4 (identical to F125)
Endurance : 3 weeks unsupported, 2 years in-mission, autonomous operations up to and including maintenance level 3, i.e. annual inspection (identical to F125)
Environment : all seas, including tropical conditions and ice capability (!) ice class 1C/E1 - i.e. same as e.g. RNZN Protector class got for antarctic ocean patrols
Accomodation : 70 crew + 20 air crew + 50 troops 100 crew + 30 air crew + 50 troops or SIGINT personnel

Armament:

• 16-cell Mk41 VLS with "minimum" 32 ESSM
• one 76mm OTO one 127mm OTO
• two 27mm MLG
• two 21-cell RAM Block II
• ffbnw four medium or heavy AShM eight heavy AShM
• helo-deployed medium AShM
• helo-deployed torpedoes (ASW module)
• two MASS decoy systems
• LRAD

Subsystems, Wet :

• two 10m RHIB or "two larger boats"

Subsystems, Air :

• medium/large helo (15t max)
• two VTOL UAVs or second 15t helo

Subsystems, Modular:

• Tactical SIGINT Module (electronic warfare & command support version) (cancelled)
• MCM Module (minehunting drones) - integration capability
• ASW Module (towed VDS)
• diver support (diver chamber etc, probably also inspection drones) - integration capability
• MIO Module (arrest cells in four TEU)

Sensor systems:

• radar : "self-defensive" (i.e. possibly less surveillance-focused than F125)
• IR : 360-degree IRST
• laser : warning detectors (part of MASS suite anyway)
• NBC : detection suite
• full electronic warfare suite

MIO functionality:

• throughdeck on upper deck for defensive operations
• secured/restricted ship access
• armored ready room for troops
• multiple armored weapon stands, NVG-capable, for MGs, AGLs, snipers, ATGM, MANPADs

Unit cost projection is set to "55% of F125 unit cost".

Default mounts ASW module in flex deck area under flight deck and MIO module in midships open flex deck. MCM module if procured would be mounted in ASW module space. Ship will carry crane for reconfiguration without infrastructure. Claimed module change in 48 hours.

Four ships to be procured with option for two further.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

See changes below, yellow color -> bold.

Yeah, you might want to consider almost any other color than yellow

 

[kato]

It's a perfect replacement for that the forum software doesn't support.

 

[mariohot]

It's a perfect replacement for that the forum software doesn't support.

what about size of mks 180? over 8000 tons?

 

[kato]

Haven't seen the previously stated "up to 5000 tons" revised so far, so I guess it's still around there.

 

[swerve]

Replacement. Four F125 & four (initially) F126 (new name for MKS180, I'm told) replacing 12 F122 & F123. Two more F126 may be built. Looks like a reduction in ASW platforms, though there may be more tonnage afloat.

 

[CdnDefWriter]

JSS is zero-funded until at least 2017,

Looks like Ge JSS will remain unfunded for near term due to recent developments.

navaltoday Germany-and-the-netherlands-sign-joint-support-ship-loi
The Letter of Intent, signed February 4 between the Netherlands and Germany, breaks the ground for the development of the Joint Support Ship initiative and the amphibious operation capability.

Germany is thereby acquiring new capabilities while the Dutch Navy is enabled to equip its ships more efficiently.

Defence ministers of the two nations signed the LOI on the Dutch Navy ship HNLMS Karel Doorman, in Amsterdam. During the signing ceremony, German defence minister Ursula von der Leyen said: “We are now, in a sense, breaking new ground, when it comes to the integration of defence forces within Europe.”

What the agreement generally entails is that the German Navy will now, in coordination with their Dutch couterparts, be able to use the biggest ship in the Dutch Navy, the HNLMS Karel Dorman (A833). This also means a closer cooperation between German and Dutch marines.

Vice Admiral Andreas Krause, current Inspector of the Navy said: “This is also a “win-win” situation. We obtain capabilities. Our Dutch partners obtain efficiency. And both navies achieve mutual integration on the long way to European armed forces.”

The field of Joint Support Ship is becoming a beacon project of the Dutch-German military cooperation. This cooperation comprises the transport of soldiers and their equipment between land and sea. It particularly relates to mutual use of means of transport, like German Marine-helicopters or the Dutch support ship Karel Doorman, which supports amphibious operations.

The latest LOI is a testament of improved relations between the two countries as the tender ship Donau joined NATO’s Standing Minecountermeasures Group to relieve the Dutch Navy ship Den Helder as the flagship of the group. An additional testament was a Dutch communications officer entering German service in the Navy Base Rostock in November 2015.

“In the end, 3.000 Dutch soldiers will live, work and train with their German counterparts”, concluded von der Leyen.

Also, per defensie.nl news-1-–-7-february
Germany and the Netherlands make progress towards military cooperation
Germany is to become co-user of the Netherlands' newest and largest navy vessel, the logistic support ship HNLMS Karel Doorman. Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert and her German counterpart Ursula von der Leyen signed 2 agreements regarding extensive cooperation on 4 February in Amsterdam. Another aspect of the maritime cooperation is the integration of the German Navy Seebataillon into the Royal Netherlands Navy.

Just wish Canada would have foresight to purchase an actual JSS (not AOR in disguise - that project should have been renamed in 2010/2011 to reflect what was actually selected). :lam

Cheers

 

[John Fedup]

Looks like Ge JSS will remain unfunded for near term due to recent developments.

navaltoday Germany-and-the-netherlands-sign-joint-support-ship-loi
The Letter of Intent, signed February 4 between the Netherlands and Germany, breaks the ground for the development of the Joint Support Ship initiative and the amphibious operation capability.

Germany is thereby acquiring new capabilities while the Dutch Navy is enabled to equip its ships more efficiently.

Defence ministers of the two nations signed the LOI on the Dutch Navy ship HNLMS Karel Doorman, in Amsterdam. During the signing ceremony, German defence minister Ursula von der Leyen said: “We are now, in a sense, breaking new ground, when it comes to the integration of defence forces within Europe.”

What the agreement generally entails is that the German Navy will now, in coordination with their Dutch couterparts, be able to use the biggest ship in the Dutch Navy, the HNLMS Karel Dorman (A833). This also means a closer cooperation between German and Dutch marines.

Vice Admiral Andreas Krause, current Inspector of the Navy said: “This is also a “win-win” situation. We obtain capabilities. Our Dutch partners obtain efficiency. And both navies achieve mutual integration on the long way to European armed forces.”

The field of Joint Support Ship is becoming a beacon project of the Dutch-German military cooperation. This cooperation comprises the transport of soldiers and their equipment between land and sea. It particularly relates to mutual use of means of transport, like German Marine-helicopters or the Dutch support ship Karel Doorman, which supports amphibious operations.

The latest LOI is a testament of improved relations between the two countries as the tender ship Donau joined NATO’s Standing Minecountermeasures Group to relieve the Dutch Navy ship Den Helder as the flagship of the group. An additional testament was a Dutch communications officer entering German service in the Navy Base Rostock in November 2015.

“In the end, 3.000 Dutch soldiers will live, work and train with their German counterparts”, concluded von der Leyen.

Also, per defensie.nl news-1-–-7-february
Germany and the Netherlands make progress towards military cooperation
Germany is to become co-user of the Netherlands' newest and largest navy vessel, the logistic support ship HNLMS Karel Doorman. Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert and her German counterpart Ursula von der Leyen signed 2 agreements regarding extensive cooperation on 4 February in Amsterdam. Another aspect of the maritime cooperation is the integration of the German Navy Seebataillon into the Royal Netherlands Navy.

Just wish Canada would have foresight to purchase an actual JSS (not AOR in disguise - that project should have been renamed in 2010/2011 to reflect what was actually selected). :lam

Cheers

For a brief time the Dutch government considered offering up the Karl Doorman for sale as a defence cut measure but came to their senses soon thereafter. Canadian defence procurement is so slow another country would have moved faster if the Netherlands were serious about selling.

[Mod edit] John, there's no need to quote the post you're replying to if your reply immediately follows it, & certainly no need to quote it in full. It's a bit of a waste of bandwidth, & doesn't help readability, when considered page by page.

This isn't aimed at you in particular, but is meant as a general reminder of the guidelines. I've noticed quite a few cases recently, by various people. Your post just happened to be the first I spotted when I thought it was time for a reminder, so I'm afraid you got unlucky. Please take note, everyone else.

 

[CdnDefWriter]

March 10 - Navaltoday

Netherlands, Germany kick off Karel Doorman cooperation
The Netherlands Navy’s Joint Logistic Support Ship HNLMS Karel Doorman will enter Warnemünde, Germany on March 12 to mark the start of the Dutch-German joint support ship use.

The 204.7-meter ship, biggest in the Dutch Navy, will host mutual exercises between the two countries.

Soldiers of both countries will take part in evacuation and boarding exercises which will take place both on land and at sea.

On February 4, 2016, German and Dutch defence ministers signed a Letter of Intent (LOI) aboard the Karel Doorman which outlined a closer maritime collaboration between the two countries. This LOI, among other things, allows the German Navy to use the HLNMS Karel Doorman for its operations.

The German Navy needs this ship as it does not have significant amphibious capabilities on its own. German soldiers will be trained by their Dutch counterparts on the ship.

Another aspect of the maritime cooperation is the integration of the Seebataillon (marines) of the German navy in the Dutch Royal Navy. The Seebataillon consists of several hundred soldiers constituted by divers, amphibious reconnaissance and mine experts. This German unit will come under Dutch command.

Now if only we could see progress like this in Canada, although intra-service Rivalry seems to be rearing its head again. Plus the always prevalent Political whims of 'what will get us the most votes', instead of foresight of 'what's best for Canada's present & future requirements'. :frown

 

[kato]

Looks like a reduction in ASW platforms, though there may be more tonnage afloat.

The tonnage increase - going with current estimates - is about plus 43-48% with 8 ships built; plus 82-87% total if the option is exercised.

Nominally the four MKS180 replace the P143A class, thus lowering gains in tonnage to minimum plus 31% while trading 18 platforms for 8 new ones. The two-ship option would be the replacement for F123 if exercised; the option is for 2031+, when the first F123 is exactly 35 years old and hence written off.

F126 isn't an official term. MKS180 was current as of mid-january. By size and role the MKS180 could easily get a C designation btw (although that's unlikely of course).

---

A bit more in line with the original thread theme:

• The first F125, Baden-Württemberg (F222), is currently on her sea trials since the beginning of last month. Civilian-flagged. Usual operation area anywhere between the German and the Norwegian coast pretty much. Planned delivery to the Navy is next year.
• The second F125, Nordrhein-Westfalen (F223) is currently - since last year - in final equipping phase.
• The third F125, Sachsen-Anhalt (F224) was christened in March.
• The fourth F125, Rheinland-Pfalz (F225) is currently - since April - in progress to have the two separately built ship modules (65m fore and 84m aft) connected.

A702 Bonn (A1413), the combat support ship originally alluded to for this thread, was commissioned into service in September 2013 and is currently flagship of SNMG2 deployed to the Aegaean Sea.

The three Berlin class A702 at 20,240t remain the largest ships in the German Navy procured in the last few years when one excludes the ones only hired on - the largest would otherwise be Ark Germania and Ark Dania at 33,300t gt and 25,000t displacement commissioned into assured-access contracts with DFDS in 2014, as well as HNLMS Karel Doorman at 27,800t contracted this year.

 

[kato]

MZES is as good as dead.

Some MZES functionality has been transferred over to the MKS180 project that has succeeded the K131 project (e.g. overseas minehunting). The Navy will keep the A404 tenders in service for the foreseeable future.

The MZES project has by now been renamed MUsE - "Medium Support Unit".

Broad focus is on tender functionality as successors of the A404 tenders with some enlargement, although intended also for solitary patrols and armed appropriately for that role. Also full RAS gear unlike the A404 in order to supply the corvettes. Late 2020s for implementation, numbers similar to the previous tenders and MZES project. Crew numbers limited preemptively to "not more than now", preventing mission creep. Slightly enlarged container space, sufficiently enlarged fuel capacity etc.

Fassmer Defence teased a few days ago that they have redesigned their MPV-70 MkII (sold to Ecuador) into an enlarged design which by visualization and description fits what's been released on requirements for MUsE pretty closely. At largest version - 120m length - also embeds MZES features such as overall accomodation for an extra 200 men and both heli deck and hangar for multiple heavy transport helicopters.