German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?

[kato]

Preliminary specs for the MKS180 have been tossed around and solidified a bit by now. It's gonna be a little brother for the F125.

Displacement : up to 5000 tons
Speed : 26 knots max, 18 knots cruise (identical to F125)
Range : 4000 nm at 18 knots in sea state 4 (identical to F125)
Endurance : 3 weeks unsupported, 2 years in-mission, autonomous operations up to and including maintenance level 3, i.e. annual inspection (identical to F125)
Environment : all seas, including tropical conditions and ice capability (!)
Accomodation : 70 crew + 20 air crew + 50 troops

Armament:

• one 76mm OTO
• two 27mm MLG
• two 21-cell RAM Block II
• ffbnw four medium or heavy AShM
• helo-deployed medium AShM
• helo-deployed torpedoes (ASW module)
• two MASS decoy systems

Subsystems, Wet :

• two 10m RHIB

Subsystems, Air :

• medium/large helo (15t max)
• two VTOL UAVs

Subsystems, Modular:

• Tactical SIGINT Module (electronic warfare & command support version)
• MCM Module (minehunting drones)
• ASW Module (towed VDS)
• diver support (diver chamber etc, probably also inspection drones)

Sensor systems:

• radar : "self-defensive" (i.e. possibly less surveillance-focused than F125)
• IR : 360-degree IRST
• laser : warning detectors (part of MASS suite anyway)
• NBC : detection suite
• full electronic warfare suite

MIO functionality:

• throughdeck on upper deck for defensive operations
• secured/restricted ship access
• armored ready room for troops
• multiple armored weapon stands, NVG-capable, for MGs, AGLs, snipers, ATGM, MANPADs

Unit cost projection is set to "55% of F125 unit cost".

 

[kato]

The third taskforce support ship that this thread was originally about, A1413 Bonn, was christened in April btw. Expected commissioning in October this year.

 

[mariohot]

Preliminary specs for the MKS180 have been tossed around and solidified a bit by now. It's gonna be a little brother for the F125.

Displacement : up to 5000 tons
Speed : 26 knots max, 18 knots cruise (identical to F125)
Range : 4000 nm at 18 knots in sea state 4 (identical to F125)
Endurance : 3 weeks unsupported, 2 years in-mission, autonomous operations up to and including maintenance level 3, i.e. annual inspection (identical to F125)
Environment : all seas, including tropical conditions and ice capability (!)
Accomodation : 70 crew + 20 air crew + 50 troops

Armament:

• one 76mm OTO
• two 27mm MLG
• two 21-cell RAM Block II
• ffbnw four medium or heavy AShM
• helo-deployed medium AShM
• helo-deployed torpedoes (ASW module)
• two MASS decoy systems

Subsystems, Wet :

• two 10m RHIB

Subsystems, Air :

• medium/large helo (15t max)
• two VTOL UAVs

Subsystems, Modular:

• Tactical SIGINT Module (electronic warfare & command support version)
• MCM Module (minehunting drones)
• ASW Module (towed VDS)
• diver support (diver chamber etc, probably also inspection drones)

Sensor systems:

• radar : "self-defensive" (i.e. possibly less surveillance-focused than F125)
• IR : 360-degree IRST
• laser : warning detectors (part of MASS suite anyway)
• NBC : detection suite
• full electronic warfare suite

MIO functionality:

• throughdeck on upper deck for defensive operations
• secured/restricted ship access
• armored ready room for troops
• multiple armored weapon stands, NVG-capable, for MGs, AGLs, snipers, ATGM, MANPADs

Unit cost projection is set to "55% of F125 unit cost".

so this is a frigate (5000 ton displacement ), british plans for new frigate t26 is about 54oo tons of displacement

 

[kato]

It's a corvette by current German standards (i.e. intended for 2D warfare), displacement doesn't matter in that regard.
The British Type 26 proposal barely differs from it, basically only in that it mounts CAMM to make it 3D-capable, is less modular and probably less durable in-mission.

Both MKS180 and F125 by traditional standards would probably sit inbetween "large gunboats" and "colonial avisos".

 

[mariohot]

It's a corvette by current German standards (i.e. intended for 2D warfare), displacement doesn't matter in that regard.
The British Type 26 proposal barely differs from it, basically only in that it mounts CAMM to make it 3D-capable, is less modular and probably less durable in-mission.

Both MKS180 and F125 by traditional standards would probably sit inbetween "large gunboats" and "colonial avisos".

but we can say that mks180 and t26 are the same size, plus mks 180 is more modular and easy upgraded to 3D, also f125 is the same size as british destroyer t45, also more modular

 

[swerve]

but we can say that mks180 and t26 are the same size, plus mks 180 is more modular and easy upgraded to 3D, also f125 is the same size as british destroyer t45, also more modular

Dimensions::

Type 45 - 152.4m x 21.2m x 7.4m
F125 - 149.5m x 18.8m x 5m
Type 26 - 148m

Given the length of Type 26, I think that 5400 tons must be standard tonnage, & full load will be over 6000, maybe 6500.

And why do you say MKS180 is more modular & more easily upgraded than Type 26? Type 26 is designed to accept different weapons & sensor fits, for export. It's being marketed as a MEKO-style flexible design.

 

[StobieWan]

Dimensions::

Type 45 - 152.4m x 21.2m x 7.4m
F125 - 149.5m x 18.8m x 5m
Type 26 - 148m

Given the length of Type 26, I think that 5400 tons must be standard tonnage, & full load will be over 6000, maybe 6500.

And why do you say MKS180 is more modular & more easily upgraded than Type 26? Type 26 is designed to accept different weapons & sensor fits, for export. It's being marketed as a MEKO-style flexible design.

Not getting this earlier comment about greater endurance either - Type 26 is built around a 7000-8000 mile range and 60 day endurance. F125 and MKS180 are both capable of being forward deployed for "up to two years" but in terms of time at sea, no contest, type 26 is a blue water ship alrighty.

 

[mariohot]

Not getting this earlier comment about greater endurance either - Type 26 is built around a 7000-8000 mile range and 60 day endurance. F125 and MKS180 are both capable of being forward deployed for "up to two years" but in terms of time at sea, no contest, type 26 is a blue water ship alrighty.

so f125 and mks 180 are not blue water ships? i think just opposite. And size of mks 180 is supposed to be around 5000 t. also basic displacement. kato would explain that better

 

[StobieWan]

so f125 and mks 180 are not blue water ships? i think just opposite. And size of mks 180 is supposed to be around 5000 t. also basic displacement. kato would explain that better

F125 has a range of 4,000 miles and an endurance of 21 days vs 7-8K for the average RN escort and sixty days at sea.


That's a fair difference in the amount of time one can spend at sea unsupported.

 

[kev 99]

F125 has a range of 4,000 miles and an endurance of 21 days vs 7-8K for the average RN escort and sixty days at sea.


That's a fair difference in the amount of time one can spend at sea unsupported.

On top of that the T26 looks like it's much more blue water orientated and will have a TAS, F125 and T26 look like very different beasts to me.

 

[kato]

F125 and MKS180 are both capable of being forward deployed for "up to two years" but in terms of time at sea, no contest, type 26 is a blue water ship alrighty.

Operational sea days. Both classes are designed to consistently provide in excess of 210 operational sea days per year per ship. Dunno about the Type 26 specifically, but would suggest from data released so far that it does not have special provisions for that - and the average for frigates and destroyers for Commonwealth navies is on the order of about 100-120 sea days per year per hull (some like SAN less, RN probably at the upper end).

The sea days per year figure is mostly relevant for patrol duties. Entirely different requirements than pulling an open ocean ASW mission. In the RN the River class is optimized towards this role and requirement, with comparable (slightly better) performance compared to F125/MKS180; in the USN the LCS is - in theory - optimized towards similar (slightly worse) performance.

 

[StobieWan]

Operational sea days. Both classes are designed to consistently provide in excess of 210 operational sea days per year per ship. Dunno about the Type 26 specifically, but would suggest from data released so far that it does not have special provisions for that - and the average for frigates and destroyers for Commonwealth navies is on the order of about 100-120 sea days per year per hull (some like SAN less, RN probably at the upper end).

The sea days per year figure is mostly relevant for patrol duties. Entirely different requirements than pulling an open ocean ASW mission. In the RN the River class is optimized towards this role and requirement, with comparable (slightly better) performance compared to F125/MKS180; in the USN the LCS is - in theory - optimized towards similar (slightly worse) performance.

They're different ships I guess is my point from the earlier suggestion that type 26 and MKS/F125 in either case are identical or even similar - the RN has a different take on things than the German Navy - and that's not a "better/best" comparison - it's just that the two navies have different roles, with some overlap in mission sets - and for that reason, neither would swap ships with the other.

 

[mariohot]

They're different ships I guess is my point from the earlier suggestion that type 26 and MKS/F125 in either case are identical or even similar - the RN has a different take on things than the German Navy - and that's not a "better/best" comparison - it's just that the two navies have different roles, with some overlap in mission sets - and for that reason, neither would swap ships with the other.

I agree with you, royal navy is blue water navy and all the ships are blue water ships, but recently geman navy is going to be a blue water navy, so ships like f125 and mks 180 are step in that direction, including future ships like Joint support ship

 

[mariohot]

I agree with you, royal navy is blue water navy and all the ships are blue water ships, but recently geman navy is going to be a blue water navy, so ships like f125 and mks 180 are step in that direction, including future ships like Joint support ship

kato,

any further technical details anout mks 180?

 

[kato]

To give this thread its final resolution:

The german navy is to get a third combat support ship, („Einsatzgruppenversorger“) for missions far from home as soon as possible.

The third Einsatzgruppenversorger, A1413 Bonn, was commissioned last week.

 

[mariohot]

To give this thread its final resolution:



The third Einsatzgruppenversorger, A1413 Bonn, was commissioned last week.

hi kato,


any news about JSS and MZES ships in german navy..planning?

 

[kato]

JSS is zero-funded until at least 2017, MZES is as good as dead.

Some MZES functionality has been transferred over to the MKS180 project that has succeeded the K131 project (e.g. overseas minehunting). The Navy will keep the A404 tenders in service for the foreseeable future.

 

[Waylander]

Whi would have thought...

It's not like the BW is swimming in cash and big ticket projects are the first ones to get postponed. And with the F124s, Berlins, F125s, K130s and Seaking successor the Navy had it's share of highly visible projects in the last years of which most weren't running very smooth...

 

[kato]

The Navy always emphasizes that JSS is a streitkräftegemeinsames (joint) project. Which means that they don't really want to spend their money on it. Pipe dream, really.

MZES could have been interesting, but it's not like the functionality can't be - for the most part - served with current and other evolving systems.

 

[mariohot]

The Navy always emphasizes that JSS is a streitkräftegemeinsames (joint) project. Which means that they don't really want to spend their money on it. Pipe dream, really.

MZES could have been interesting, but it's not like the functionality can't be - for the most part - served with current and other evolving systems.

well since german plan is to build power projection navy , sooner or later it has to be done.....few years doesn´t matter