Ive been reading about Brazil do they have the capacity to manage that level of tech especially since they have been spending so much on the economic infra structure such as ports roads etc I know they are coming on leaps and bounds but didn't think that level of military investment would interest them.
Falklands tensions
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- #262
Brazil are currently in an agreement with France to build 4 Scorpene class SSKs i(alongside Brazilian technicians) and they've agreed to jointly develop Brazils first SSN as well. The first SSK was pretty much constructed as much as they're contracted too before shipping to Brazil in Dec last year.
First Scorpene Submarine for Brazil Ready to Ship | Navy & Maritime Security News at DefenceTalk
IIRC DCNS has a hand in supporting the naval infrastructure in Brazil too.
I've heard a few roumers that Brazil is planning for a 20 strong submarine fleet including 6 nuclear powered examples which sounds about right, Brazil is obsessed with defending it's offshore natural resources.
Brazil launched the construction of four Scorpene-class attack submarines — MercoPress
As to being able to manage the tech, they're very ambitious, the slow progress of getting their first aircraft carrier is slowly taking shape. IIRC in Warships IFR a few months ago there was a brief article about Brazil asking European shipyards for designs, i'll look for the article.
That, with their (very slow) F-XX program and their plans to replace their frigates with FREMM or T26 they're very substantially regenerating their naval power.
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- #264
Probably are plenty of examples out there which could be used for ASW. As far as frigates goes they'd have to buy new ones as AFAIK all of their "frigates" are really corvettes and has such either have no (or limited) aviation capacity. Not to mention they're probably noiser than a WW1 artillery barrage.
Either way they go won't probably produce much fruit anyway, many consider the RN (alongside the USN) as having the best submarines + crew in the world so finding them let alone combatting them will be a difficult task.
Must admit wasn't thinking of so much against other nations I see where they fit into an agressive posture but not for territorial defence maybe Argentina and Brazil should maybe look at forming partnerships with countries such as south Korea who seem to recently have come on a lot recently with their own aircraft and ships must admit wasn't thinking so much ship bourne aircraft for ASW was thinking more along the lines of somthing like a saab 340 outlying about territorial integrity
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- #266
If Brazil partnered with Argentina then no other partnerships would be neccesary. With all the current projects Brazil is doing/will be doing they'll be making plenty of contacts in the defence market, if they go for the Gripen in their F-XX then they'll be already well placed with Saab.
There's plenty of that sort of aircraft about that could do the job, but I would expect them to piggyback with Brazil if they wanted too.
Must emphasise that as it stands, they don't have the budget for much procurement.
Argentina has four MEKO frigates although IIRC classified as destroyers (with D pennant numbers) by the navy, which do have aviation facilities, with hangars.
It also has nine corvettes with P pennant numbers, of which six MEKOs (called frigates by the designers 30 years ago, but not classed as such by the Argentinean navy) have helicopter landing pads, including three with telescopic hangars.
Gripen NG isn't available to Argentina. Far too much British content. Brazil is well aware of this. Marketing of Gripen NG to Brazil has had official British support since Typhoon failed to be shortlisted.
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- #268
Ah right, thanks for the info!
Ohhh I see, I just made the assumption that becaus BAE no longer actually has a stake in Saab that the UK wouldn't have any control about what Saab does with the products.
How much of the Gripen is of British origin?
The majority of the radar, including the AESA array, is from the British (in Edinburgh) part of Selex. SAAB-Ericsson is contributing some back-end parts & software, IIRC. With some lesser bits & pieces, the total British content is about 20%.
The Skyward-G IRST is also from Selex, but I'm not sure whether it's British or Italian.
It's not about company ownership, but where the products are designed & made. Selex is an Italian company, but the British government controls what it exports from the UK, just as the US government controls what BAe Systems or Rolls-Royce or MBDA North America export from the USA. And British controls apply to re-export after fitting in a foreign product, exactly the same as US controls. AFAIK the British government is generally less restrictive, but it wouldn't allow exports of the ES-05 Raven radar to Argentina unless the politics of the Falklands completely changed.
The Skyward-G IRST is also from Selex, but I'm not sure whether it's British or Italian.
It's not about company ownership, but where the products are designed & made. Selex is an Italian company, but the British government controls what it exports from the UK, just as the US government controls what BAe Systems or Rolls-Royce or MBDA North America export from the USA. And British controls apply to re-export after fitting in a foreign product, exactly the same as US controls. AFAIK the British government is generally less restrictive, but it wouldn't allow exports of the ES-05 Raven radar to Argentina unless the politics of the Falklands completely changed.
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- #270
Ahhhhh, I see, thanks for that
Bit of an unnerving comment from Argentinian defence minister Puricelli
http://en.mercopress.com/2012/08/13...ls-on-uk-to-dialogue-on-falklands-sovereignty
It would be VERY easy - in my opinion - to interpret that comment to mean that if the Falklands Garrison didn't exist, then the Falklands as we know it would not exist as a British overseas territory, whilst it's what I (and many others probably) expected what would have happened, it's interesting for them to openly admit to it.
The actual backdrop the article isn't particularly troubling, just revealing the Pampa II, which is - from what I understand - essentially a light trainer aircraft with a limited secondary ground attack capability.
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- #272
To most sensible people.
The reason I thought it was interesting was the usual Argentinian comment is "Ohhh Britain, why are you so war hungry? You don't need that garrison, we're a peaceful country and invasion is not an option!"
Then to essentially hear "Yeah, if the garrison wasn't there, we'd invade you in a hearbeat" is - to me - interesting.
Argentina and China signed an agreement just now, related to the "Belt and Road" initiative. In this context, China reasserted support for Argentina's claim to the Falklands. At the same time, Argentina expressed support For China's claim to Taiwan.
The UK reminded China that the Falklands are "part of British family": Truss says Falklands part of ‘British family’ after China backs Argentina | Falkland Islands | The Guardian
China has expressed support for Argentina's claims also on previous occasions: China hits out at Western ‘colonialism’ as it backs Argentina’s claim to Falkland Islands | South China Morning Post (scmp.com); Falklands/Malvinas: strong support from China in joint declaration with Argentina — MercoPress
Argentina is also in talks with China regarding military equipment including JF-17 fighter jets:
JF-17 Thunder: Argentine Ambassador Visits Chinese Aerospace Firm In Beijing, Discusses Acquisition Of Sino-Pak Jets -- Reports (eurasiantimes.com)
Argentinian economy is quite poor, and a perfect target for China's strategy of offering "cheap" loans to poor countries around the world, preferrably those having significant natural resources and/or strategic importance.
The current Argentinian government is also strengthening ties with Russia:
Russia has previously expressed support for Argentina's claim to the Falklands, and Argentina has expressed support for Russian annexation of Crimea: Falkland Islands’ fears for Russia-backed invasion (cnbc.com)
The UK reminded China that the Falklands are "part of British family": Truss says Falklands part of ‘British family’ after China backs Argentina | Falkland Islands | The Guardian
China has expressed support for Argentina's claims also on previous occasions: China hits out at Western ‘colonialism’ as it backs Argentina’s claim to Falkland Islands | South China Morning Post (scmp.com); Falklands/Malvinas: strong support from China in joint declaration with Argentina — MercoPress
Argentina is also in talks with China regarding military equipment including JF-17 fighter jets:
JF-17 Thunder: Argentine Ambassador Visits Chinese Aerospace Firm In Beijing, Discusses Acquisition Of Sino-Pak Jets -- Reports (eurasiantimes.com)
Argentinian economy is quite poor, and a perfect target for China's strategy of offering "cheap" loans to poor countries around the world, preferrably those having significant natural resources and/or strategic importance.
The current Argentinian government is also strengthening ties with Russia:
Buenos Aires Times | Alberto tells Putin: Argentina has to stop depending on IMF and US (batimes.com.ar)
Russia has previously expressed support for Argentina's claim to the Falklands, and Argentina has expressed support for Russian annexation of Crimea: Falkland Islands’ fears for Russia-backed invasion (cnbc.com)
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Argentina, probably on the path to becoming another Venezuela.
Both the PRC and the RF would love naval and air bases in Argentina because it would then give them permanent access to the South Atlantic, South West Pacific, Southern Ocean and Antarctica. That would be a strategic coup.
There is the nuclear reactor deal they signed recently.
But I think it depends on domestic politics. Under the Kirchner government. they were flirting with the Chinese. The current administration is also Peronist so it is not a surprised. How far they can take it is a question mark. China is a convenient foil and a source of cheap loans at best. It remains to be seen that it would be more than a relationship of convenience.
/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/5HQRKIJZB5PCLGPQLNJKU7K66Y.jpg)
www.reuters.com
But I think it depends on domestic politics. Under the Kirchner government. they were flirting with the Chinese. The current administration is also Peronist so it is not a surprised. How far they can take it is a question mark. China is a convenient foil and a source of cheap loans at best. It remains to be seen that it would be more than a relationship of convenience.
China inks $8 bln nuclear power plant deal in Argentina
State-owned China National Nuclear Corp (CNNC) has signed a contract in Argentina to build the $8 billion Atucha III nuclear power plant using China's Hualong One technology, reviving a deal that had been stalled for years.
www.reuters.com
Kiwigov
Member
Given Argentina's post-WW2 history of anti-foreign investment sentiment, China would have to anticipate the likely risk of writing off BRL loans - and distance from China and RF limits their enforcement capabilities (unlike say, Syria, Laos). Same applies to Venezuela. All it would take is a electoral or military change and all that investment is down the drain. CIA has historically much greater capabilities to influence affairs in LatAm (admittedly without much apparent success of late!)
Agree a nice corner of the world to play traffic cop.
China however has made no friends in Argentina with their large fishing fleets operating and competing with the locals.
They will need to address this or pay political tax.
That said, It will be interesting to see how the Argentina / China / Russian relationship pans out.
The world does seem to be dividing into a them or us club.
Taiwan and Crimea are a long way from Argentina as are the Falklands to China.
The games nations play.
Argentina like much of South America has a lot of potential.
They just constantly get let done politically.
Foreign influence in this part of the world will be interesting to watch
What will China want in return for the money invested.
I doubt it is only Argentine recognition of Chinese sovereignty of Taiwan.
Regards S
I'd put money on port access for PLA-N being the long term goal (apart from the political goal of undermining the UK). That would give China logistical access in the south Atlantic and potentially the southern choke point around South America. I think it will only be when large Chinese/Russian naval exercises are taking place in their backyard that they will understand why the US is paying them so much attention.
Argentina will continue to flirt with China because due to its own economic weakness as well as a foil against the UK.
But I am skeptical whether it will lead to anything more substantial and lasting such as naval base access because:
1) Argentina is not Maduro's Venezuela and changes in government from the left to the right and back means political uncertainty for China
2) The US remains a major export market for Argentina (No. 3, behind Brazil and China). They are aware that the Americans will not welcome a Chinese presence in that part of the world.
Russia isn't even in that list of top exporters or markets so I don't see anything substantial with them. Sure, it might be good to have someone voice solidarity on the Falklands issue, but words are cheap.
But I am skeptical whether it will lead to anything more substantial and lasting such as naval base access because:
1) Argentina is not Maduro's Venezuela and changes in government from the left to the right and back means political uncertainty for China
2) The US remains a major export market for Argentina (No. 3, behind Brazil and China). They are aware that the Americans will not welcome a Chinese presence in that part of the world.
Russia isn't even in that list of top exporters or markets so I don't see anything substantial with them. Sure, it might be good to have someone voice solidarity on the Falklands issue, but words are cheap.