F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

gamni

New Member
i also have a question about the graph. What kind of capability 'gap' would we over the next say 4 years as our bugs will be upgraded resulting in alot out of service, the f-111 recieving upgrades so i can only assume a fair few out of service. The f-22 isnt available right now, might not be for years to come or ever and how long would it even take to arrive and come into service in australia? (i would assume around 2012 at the earliest). As for the letter debate, if the defence minister did recieve the a letter. It would imply that if he formally asked the US government/congress to allow exports of the f-22 to Aus that he would be formally denied. Its an election year, the governments already in trouble. The 'political slap in the face' would only give the opposition ammo to attack the government further and would stir up stories in the media.

Also 1.6b to evolve the pigs? i thought it would cost more then that to upgrade our pigs significantly enough to make em fly till 2020?

EDIT: I was not referring to your post markus and was not suggesting the RAAF was looking at what i said. I was simply replying to occum's post with the graph he linked. I will quote in future :)
 
Last edited:

Markus40

New Member
The F22 is NOT a aircraft of choice by the RAAF. This is due to its operational status and tilting the capability gap to one that Australia doesnt need or require. Yet, its the Aircraft of choice by the Labour government. Which makes this argument very interesting. If the Liberals continue in power then its doubtful the F22 will be seen at airbases in Australia, only at air shows. Its most likely we will now see the acquisition of more Supers and a smaller number of F35s . There is the argument that the further we wait for the aircraft under the block 3-4 programme the cheaper they will be to purchase. I do believe there is a battle between Boeing and LM not to mention some other aircraft manufacturers that could be on the table to have Australia buy its aircraft. This is at the expense of the MOD where it would seem to me that this is causing divides within the higher ranks in power and in the military.

I really think there needs to be a serious discussion over the rifts and different opinions on the next fighter so a clear directive can be made. As much as i like Minister Nelson i think he needs to start to listen to all of the pros and cons before making knee jerk acquisitions . The cost of purchasing the supers over the extended life of the F111s which is a stalwart of power projection makes far more sense to me than to spend billions on the Supers. If the government is intent on the JSF then it should stay on track and work out a better leasing system. One that requires minimum disruption to pilot transition and to cost and to support structures.





i also have a question about the graph. What kind of capability 'gap' would we over the next say 4 years as our bugs will be upgraded resulting in alot out of service, the f-111 recieving upgrades so i can only assume a fair few out of service. The f-22 isnt available right now, might not be for years to come or ever and how long would it even take to arrive and come into service in australia? (i would assume around 2012 at the earliest). As for the letter debate, if the defence minister did recieve the a letter. It would imply that if he formally asked the US government/congress to allow exports of the f-22 to Aus that he would be formally denied. Its an election year, the governments already in trouble. The 'political slap in the face' would only give the opposition ammo to attack the government further and would stir up stories in the media.
 
Last edited:

Markus40

New Member
The F111s dont need to retire in 2020. They can retire at exactly the same time the F35s come in. If the government selected the F35 replacement. However we now know that this isnt a reality.


i also have a question about the graph. What kind of capability 'gap' would we over the next say 4 years as our bugs will be upgraded resulting in alot out of service, the f-111 recieving upgrades so i can only assume a fair few out of service. The f-22 isnt available right now, might not be for years to come or ever and how long would it even take to arrive and come into service in australia? (i would assume around 2012 at the earliest). As for the letter debate, if the defence minister did recieve the a letter. It would imply that if he formally asked the US government/congress to allow exports of the f-22 to Aus that he would be formally denied. Its an election year, the governments already in trouble. The 'political slap in the face' would only give the opposition ammo to attack the government further and would stir up stories in the media.

Also 1.6b to evolve the pigs? i thought it would cost more then that to upgrade our pigs significantly enough to make em fly till 2020?
 

gamni

New Member
im not referring to the current plan to purchase superhornets or JSF with relation to upgrading the pigs. Im referring to the 'industry plans' in the link occum provided, which if you looked at basically says to stop the HUG program and use the cash to evolve the f-111. Dont purchase the Super bugs or JSF and buy 50 f-22a.
 

ELP

New Member
Another untimely thing in my opinion is that it is a darn shame the F-111s don't stay for a little while longer. It is seriously unfortunate that the new capability of the arriving JDAM-ER won't be setup to work on the F-111. This relatively cheap long range precision guided munition (PGM) means that the F-111 could completely contempt of engage small and medium SAMs, AAA, trashfire and being that it is the ER version of JDAM, contempt of engage some larger SAMs too.... and the weapon would arrive within 4 meters of fixed targets almost every time... in near any weather. Hard to put a price on that capability that isn't all that hard to put on the F-111. That is a serious killing force especially as one airframe could release all of it's weapons to multiple targets in one pass. Where the "pass" is pretty far from the target.
Hard to ask for too much more than that... to have that kind of ability to hit well for such little expense. You guys are one of the few on the whole planet that can have that kind of ability. JDAM force multiplies the F-111 in a big way. The ER version of the JDAM does that even better.
The jet isn't going to fall out of the sky if it is kept longer till 2020. That kind of fear-mongering from Defence, doesn't wash.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A Very Good Example

The figures you present seem to add up, however I have a few issues with the ideas behind your funding levels.

1, Hasn't the majority of the HUG project budget already been spent? I am aware that CBR remains a considerable part of that budget however the majority I understood has already gone into phases 1 and 2?

If so, it's a furphy adding that funding. It's already gone. You might as well add the cost of the original Hornet acquisition budget to the graph...

2nd. Your graph presumes the F-22 is even available for sale. RAAF and Government clearly think it's not, as do Japan and Israel. The infamous letter Defmin Nelson referred to may or may not be legitimate, but if it is then the "game is over" so to speak. In either case, I think it'd be politically expedient if nothing else, for Government to clarify the issue "officially".

3rd. Defmin Nelson acknowledged publicly today (20/03/07) that the budget for the Super Hornet includes an extensive weapons and sensor (24x ATFLIR pods, additional JHMCS for the "backseaters" etc) package. A similar sized (if not in specific weapons type) package would be needed even for a dual F-22/F-111 based force. Including it's cost against the SH, but not against the F-22/F-111 force is just a bit unfair, isn't it?

On top of this, has the "aussie dollar" versus US dollar been taken into account?

I did a quick calculation based on a 2006 CRS report which states current F-22's are costing USAF US$173m a piece in 2006 dollars. 50x such aircraft adds up to US$8.65b or AUD $10.81b at current exchange rates (as of 20.03.2007)...

It all effects the equation somewhat... :)
This post is a very good example of the presumptive reasoning, abductive and non sequitur arguments and the use of red herrings and 'benefit trawling' that have been the hallmarks of one side of this debate.

The table presented at:

http://www.ausairpower.net/media.html

is a comparative tool known in the trade as a 'comparator'. Working back through the points raised in the above post:

5. Exchange Rate - The same risk hedged exchange rate has been used across the table, where applicable. Therefore, any variation in exchange rate will effect both sides of the ledger, so to speak. Obviously, exchange rate does not apply to work done and paid for in Australia. Raising 'exchange rate' as a source of variance to the accuracy of the data, particularly when it is only applied to one side of the argument, is a red herring and somewhat flawed reasoning.

4. 2006 CRS Report - The figure of US$173 million in this report was representative of the average unit procurment cost (AUPC) of the current production numbers of F-22 aircraft for the US Air Force. In simple terms, that would have been about the cost of aircraft # AF-4090. See Note (v) beneath the table. All 185 aircraft in this production have been committed to the US Air Force. Any Australian or other foreign buy would be over and above this number and, therefore, further into the production. Just as senior officials in Defence are saying in relation to the JSF, the further into the full rate production, the lower the unit cost. Using this figure from the 2006 CRS Report is a non sequitur, a good example of a red herring and flawed reasoning.

3. Extensive Weapons and Sensor Package - Citing the imprimatur of the Minister for Defence, his "public acknowledgment today (20/3/07)" and such terms as 'extensive' is all very grand(iose) but no substitute for hard data. How much is this package worth?
Is it $237m, $500m or even $1Bn. If the latter (which it certainly is not), then, does this effect the overall conclusions that can be drawn from this comparative table? As for being 'fair', the cost used for the F-22 includes a cost estimate for armament which, when amortised across the proposed buy numbers, works out to around about 5 per cent of the average unit procurement cost. Again, this point is predicated on presumptive reasoning, is non sequitur in nature, and a red herring - as well as shows how this post misses the point of the cost comparison entirely. It is also a good example of an attempt at 'benefit trawling'.

2. Australian Access to the F-22 - As has been said repeatedly on this forum and in other forums, including before Parliamentary oversight committees, because of the Obey Amendment and, moreover, the politics that now surround this issue, the US DoD cannot offer Australia the aircraft - we have to ask for it, and formally. Given, as is well known in Defence and Parliamentary circles, the Minister 'hates' the F-22, is he the right person to ask? Given, back in 2001, the new CAF at the time (now CDF) was the person who shut down the 'F-22 for Australia' responses coming out of the US Air Force, is he the right person to ask? As for the arguments presented, this post appears to assert some first hand knowledge of what Japan and Israel think about, and their intentions in relation to, the F-22. Based on the arguments presented in similar previous posts, it would be fair to assume this statement is based upon a not unbiased interpretation of reports in the media. Another fine example of presumptive reasoning leading to abductive and non sequitur argument.

1. HUG Project Budget - Firstly, the comparison is based upon the NACC and related activities. The original acquisition of the F/A-18 classics is not part of these activities and, therefore, any suggestion it be included is, in itself, a 'furphy' - a classic 'red herring'. The post is quite correct when it says that HUG Project funds have been expended. It is also quite correct in saying "that CBR remains a considerable part of that budget". However, what it doesn't say is that the figure used in the comparison ($2.92 Bn) is conservative, pre-dates the budgetary changes due to such things as the ALR2002/ALR-67V3 changeover but offsets the monies already expended with those that will need to be spent as the risks identified in the HUG and related deeper level maintenance activities (eg. Kapton insulated wiring replacement, fuel bladders, ASI 1 & 2 structural arisings, vapour seals, full strip/repaint, wing internals, etc) materialise. To leave the HUG Project costs out of the comparator, either in part or fully, would invalidate the comparison as it is, after all, a comparison between two options for the 'NACC Project and related activities' and the HUG Project is one of the activities in one of the options. Again, this post seems not to understand the purpose of such a comparison.

A Relevant Question or Three:

By its very nature, tone and obvious intent, this post raises some interesting questions:

The F-22 is the 'meanest dog on the block' when it comes to air power. It would not only ensure Australia regains its fading regional air superiority status but would provide the air dominance capability to enable our country to continue to make valuable contributions to the maintenance of peace and security in the region. That said, what is so wrong with advocating the best for our fighting men and women, for our Nation and for future generations of Australians - particularly when the best is far more capable than, far more cost effective than, and far less risky than the current plans of the Department and its Minister?

Is it not the Australian way, part of the Great Australian Heritage, to seek out innovative, cost effective solutions to our Defence capability needs and isn't this what the people in Government and the Department keep asking of people in Defence and the Australian Defence Industry?

If so, what is the basis behind the nature, tone and intent of this post, with its red herrings, presumptive reasonings, abductive and non sequitur arguments, and benefit trawling?


:shudder
 

rjmaz1

New Member
The Super Hornet and F-35 combo is definitely the best option for the RAAF..

When we get our JSF we definitely dont need an F-22 for air dominance.

The F-35 will be able to provide air dominance against all current russian aircraft, and provide air superiority against future russian aircraft.

The F-35 being overweight is not an issue, it still far out performs the aircraft its replacing.

Even though the F-35 is overweight is has an excellent fuel fraction. It has far more internal fuel than the Classic Hornet, F-16, Eurofighter and Rafale. Infact if you put the maximum external fuel load on these aircraft the F-35 still has more internal fuel...

To be fair all performance comparisons between the F-35 and 4th genertaion aircraft should have the 4th gen aircraft carrying maximum external fuel just to give them similar range of the F-35. To even be more accurate you should put two bombs and two AMRAAM missiles on the wings of the 4th generation models.

The F-16 and Classic hornet in this config would absolutely get slaughtered in every way. Power to drag ratio and Power to weight ratio will see the F-35 have better performance in all area's. Instant turn rate, sustained turn rate, climb rate, acceleration of the F-35 are miles ahead of the 4th generations models in this config..

For an idea of the reduction of drag by having weapons and fuel internally. With the F-16 conformal tanks they only provide 12% of the drag when compared to two under wing tanks and their associated pylons. The conformal tanks actually have considerable more fuel as well. So for every kg of internal fuel a basic rule of thumb is you need 2kg of external fuel. This is why the F-35 will be very impressive in the range department. It will easily replace our F-111's.

With an increase of only 4,000kg in emepty weight over the current F-16 model the F-35 packs more than 4,000kg extra internal fuel AND two massive weapons bays.. Thats pretty good for a 4,000kg weight increase. F-35 is 46% heavier but has 60% greater dry thrust and 48% greater wet thrust than the F-16. Just as impressive.

When compared to the Eurofighter the F-35 weighs 15% more than the Typhoon -- 15% which buys you two huge weapon bays, 185% the fuel capacity, extremely low RCS and the accommodation of a STOVL variant.

I do admit that the early figures of the F-35 have it performing no better than a clean F-16, however a clean F-16 doesn't get used in combat. If compared in a long range strike config the F-35 will probably out perform the Eurofighter and Rafale.

The F-35 is EASILY the second best fighter to the F-22.. The F-35 is actually better in some area's.

1) Endurance of the F-35 is better than the F-22.
2) Anti-shipping can be performed by the F-35 and not the F-22.
3) The F-35 will be roughly two thirds the price of the F-22.
4) Close Air support will be better with the F-35 with its EO equipment.

Thats four main reasons why the RAAF would prefer the F-35 over the F-22.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Evolved F-111s

i also have a question about the graph. What kind of capability 'gap' would we over the next say 4 years as our bugs will be upgraded resulting in alot out of service, the f-111 recieving upgrades so i can only assume a fair few out of service.
The simple answer is none!

;)

The Evolved F-111S work schedule is based around using block upgrade and technology insertion techniques done during standard servicings using dedicated modification crews. The aim here being to minimise aircraft downtime to that of standard maintenance activities and, thereby, have no effect on aircraft availability.

Additionally, since this work would be done in Australia, by Australians and for Australians, it would be under our sovereign control - Australians would be calling the shots and able to employ the flexibilities built into the modification packages to Australia's advantage. This, in turn, provides flexibility in scheduling and budgeting.

Further, for the risk minded who read this forum, don't forget there are some 200 F-111s and related components in long term storage in the AMARC in the USA plus the F-111Gs that are supposed to be (and one would hope would be) in proper storage down at the RAAF Base at Amberley.

:)

Also 1.6b to evolve the pigs? i thought it would cost more then that to upgrade our pigs significantly enough to make em fly till 2020?
Costing estimates were peer reviewed by members of Australian Industry (RED Teamed). They contain more than appropriate margins for risks - none of which were deemed to be above MEDIUM for the design/development work and MEDIUM/LOW for the installation/integration work. With the passage of time, the costs for most of the hardware have come down as have the risks. Additionally, even more cost effective solutions have emerged in some of the detailed areas in the mod packages. Also, as can be seen from the Don Middleton paper, some of the upgrades (LINK16, JDAM, EKP, PaveTack IR Enhancement, etc.) have already been done. See -

http://www.ausairpower.net/F-111-Defender-Summer-2006-07.pdf

The EKPs (a family of Electronic Knee Pads) are a truly amazing and wholly Australian innovation.

:cool:

It is this sort of Australian capability that exists today that the Minister's Super Hornet option is now putting at serious risk.

:shudder

The Minister's super dud option represents the final nail in the coffin of the Australian Defence Aerospace Industry and the irony of it all is that he announced it around the same time he released the Government's Defence Industry Policy Statement which he is clearly (and, some suggest, blindly) ignoring.

:mad:
 

gamni

New Member
This post is a very good example of the presumptive reasoning, abductive and non sequitur arguments and the use of red herrings and 'benefit trawling' that have been the hallmarks of one side of this debate.

The table presented at:
(i cant link yet :rolleyes:)

is a comparative tool known in the trade as a 'comparator'. Working back through the points raised in the above post:

5. Exchange Rate - The same risk hedged exchange rate has been used across the table, where applicable. Therefore, any variation in exchange rate will effect both sides of the ledger, so to speak. Obviously, exchange rate does not apply to work done and paid for in Australia. Raising 'exchange rate' as a source of variance to the accuracy of the data, particularly when it is only applied to one side of the argument, is a red herring and somewhat flawed reasoning.

4. 2006 CRS Report - The figure of US$173 million in this report was representative of the average unit procurment cost (AUPC) of the current production numbers of F-22 aircraft for the US Air Force. In simple terms, that would have been about the cost of aircraft # AF-4090. See Note (v) beneath the table. All 185 aircraft in this production have been committed to the US Air Force. Any Australian or other foreign buy would be over and above this number and, therefore, further into the production. Just as senior officials in Defence are saying in relation to the JSF, the further into the full rate production, the lower the unit cost. Using this figure from the 2006 CRS Report is a non sequitur, a good example of a red herring and flawed reasoning.

3. Extensive Weapons and Sensor Package - Citing the imprimatur of the Minister for Defence, his "public acknowledgment today (20/3/07)" and such terms as 'extensive' is all very grand(iose) but no substitute for hard data. How much is this package worth?
Is it $237m, $500m or even $1Bn. If the latter (which it certainly is not), then, does this effect the overall conclusions that can be drawn from this comparative table? As for being 'fair', the cost used for the F-22 includes a cost estimate for armament which, when amortised across the proposed buy numbers, works out to around about 5 per cent of the average unit procurement cost. Again, this point is predicated on presumptive reasoning, is non sequitur in nature, and a red herring - as well as shows how this post misses the point of the cost comparison entirely. It is also a good example of an attempt at 'benefit trawling'.

2. Australian Access to the F-22 - As has been said repeatedly on this forum and in other forums, including before Parliamentary oversight committees, because of the Obey Amendment and, moreover, the politics that now surround this issue, the US DoD cannot offer Australia the aircraft - we have to ask for it, and formally. Given, as is well known in Defence and Parliamentary circles, the Minister 'hates' the F-22, is he the right person to ask? Given, back in 2001, the new CAF at the time (now CDF) was the person who shut down the 'F-22 for Australia' responses coming out of the US Air Force, is he the right person to ask? As for the arguments presented, this post appears to assert some first hand knowledge of what Japan and Israel think about, and their intentions in relation to, the F-22. Based on the arguments presented in similar previous posts, it would be fair to assume this statement is based upon a not unbiased interpretation of reports in the media. Another fine example of presumptive reasoning leading to abductive and non sequitur argument.

1. HUG Project Budget - Firstly, the comparison is based upon the NACC and related activities. The original acquisition of the F/A-18 classics is not part of these activities and, therefore, any suggestion it be included is, in itself, a 'furphy' - a classic 'red herring'. The post is quite correct when it says that HUG Project funds have been expended. It is also quite correct in saying "that CBR remains a considerable part of that budget". However, what it doesn't say is that the figure used in the comparison ($2.92 Bn) is conservative, pre-dates the budgetary changes due to such things as the ALR2002/ALR-67V3 changeover but offsets the monies already expended with those that will need to be spent as the risks identified in the HUG and related deeper level maintenance activities (eg. Kapton insulated wiring replacement, fuel bladders, ASI 1 & 2 structural arisings, vapour seals, full strip/repaint, wing internals, etc) materialise. To leave the HUG Project costs out of the comparator, either in part or fully, would invalidate the comparison as it is, after all, a comparison between two options for the 'NACC Project and related activities' and the HUG Project is one of the activities in one of the options. Again, this post seems not to understand the purpose of such a comparison.

A Relevant Question or Three:

By its very nature, tone and obvious intent, this post raises some interesting questions:

The F-22 is the 'meanest dog on the block' when it comes to air power. It would not only ensure Australia regains its fading regional air superiority status but would provide the air dominance capability to enable our country to continue to make valuable contributions to the maintenance of peace and security in the region. That said, what is so wrong with advocating the best for our fighting men and women, for our Nation and for future generations of Australians - particularly when the best is far more capable than, far more cost effective than, and far less risky than the current plans of the Department and its Minister?

Is it not the Australian way, part of the Great Australian Heritage, to seek out innovative, cost effective solutions to our Defence capability needs and isn't this what the people in Government and the Department keep asking of people in Defence and the Australian Defence Industry?

If so, what is the basis behind the nature, tone and intent of this post, with its red herrings, presumptive reasonings, abductive and non sequitur arguments, and benefit trawling?


:shudder
I am no expert on the matter like you i am simply stating on what i have read, seen and come to my own conclusions and will try my best. The following assumes the f-22 is open to exporting by the end of 2007.
My numbered points arnt responding to your particular ones.

1. Under the industries plans, it is replacing the current upgrade program with a f-111 upgrade. How would that affect the current f18's service life? Would they survive long enough till the f-22 came into service? If a evolved f-111 program were to come in place, when would it take effect? Would it begin instantly or wait until the f-22 came into service?

2. On the topic of the f-22, of the 50 i assume there needs to be a few for training, some for attrition etc. Would that leave enough to services australians ongoing needs? (I estimate it would be around 40 planes at most which would stretch it). What happens to the RAAF's ideal of having a 100 combat aircraft to serve australias needs? only 80 in the industries plan. However given the money saving i assume you could just buy more f-22's.

3. How long would it take to bring the f-22 into operational service and the support setup to run them? From what ive read and seen, the plan is based upon RAAF buying the f-22 at the end of the full production line (am i correct?) so how long would that relate to before we recieve them? The current HUG upgrades supposedly will alow the f18's to last until 2015 when the JSF can replace them. Would cancelling the HUG upgrades allow enough time till the f-22 comes into service? (i would estimate that the f-22 would begin arriving in 2010 at the earliest) If not, what happens then? Ofcourse you could always continue the HUG upgrades with proposed savings.

4. This isnt really directly related, but a relative who is a politician in the current government told me that, if we formally asked for the f-22 and formally denied (its his understanding the letter exists), it could further add to the government's current woe's and shortfalls. Personally the way the opposition has been sitting on both sides of the fence, they will turn it against the government if it was to occur.

Alas, if you can answer some of my questions i would be grateful. I usually take what politicians say with a grain of salt until i get all the facts.
 

Markus40

New Member
Agreed. It isnt and precisely my point as well. What i see isnt the fact that the F111 is outdated , but rather a "spin" has been put on it by certain pressures from either LM or Boeing and put on the Australian MOD to fast select an alternative replacement when in actual fact a replacement doesnt need to be addressed till at least 2012. Why Nelson agreed to have the bridging technology gap put in place immediatly is beyond me.



Another untimely thing in my opinion is that it is a darn shame the F-111s don't stay for a little while longer. It is seriously unfortunate that the new capability of the arriving JDAM-ER won't be setup to work on the F-111. This relatively cheap long range precision guided munition (PGM) means that the F-111 could completely contempt of engage small and medium SAMs, AAA, trashfire and being that it is the ER version of JDAM, contempt of engage some larger SAMs too.... and the weapon would arrive within 4 meters of fixed targets almost every time... in near any weather. Hard to put a price on that capability that isn't all that hard to put on the F-111. That is a serious killing force especially as one airframe could release all of it's weapons to multiple targets in one pass. Where the "pass" is pretty far from the target.
Hard to ask for too much more than that... to have that kind of ability to hit well for such little expense. You guys are one of the few on the whole planet that can have that kind of ability. JDAM force multiplies the F-111 in a big way. The ER version of the JDAM does that even better.
The jet isn't going to fall out of the sky if it is kept longer till 2020. That kind of fear-mongering from Defence, doesn't wash.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
The Super Hornet and F-35 combo is definitely the best option for the RAAF..

When we get our JSF we definitely dont need an F-22 for air dominance.

The F-35 will be able to provide air dominance against all current russian aircraft, and provide air superiority against future russian aircraft.

The F-35 being overweight is not an issue, it still far out performs the aircraft its replacing.

Even though the F-35 is overweight is has an excellent fuel fraction. It has far more internal fuel than the Classic Hornet, F-16, Eurofighter and Rafale. Infact if you put the maximum external fuel load on these aircraft the F-35 still has more internal fuel...

To be fair all performance comparisons between the F-35 and 4th genertaion aircraft should have the 4th gen aircraft carrying maximum external fuel just to give them similar range of the F-35. To even be more accurate you should put two bombs and two AMRAAM missiles on the wings of the 4th generation models.

The F-16 and Classic hornet in this config would absolutely get slaughtered in every way. Power to drag ratio and Power to weight ratio will see the F-35 have better performance in all area's. Instant turn rate, sustained turn rate, climb rate, acceleration of the F-35 are miles ahead of the 4th generations models in this config..

For an idea of the reduction of drag by having weapons and fuel internally. With the F-16 conformal tanks they only provide 12% of the drag when compared to two under wing tanks and their associated pylons. The conformal tanks actually have considerable more fuel as well. So for every kg of internal fuel a basic rule of thumb is you need 2kg of external fuel. This is why the F-35 will be very impressive in the range department. It will easily replace our F-111's.

With an increase of only 4,000kg in emepty weight over the current F-16 model the F-35 packs more than 4,000kg extra internal fuel AND two massive weapons bays.. Thats pretty good for a 4,000kg weight increase. F-35 is 46% heavier but has 60% greater dry thrust and 48% greater wet thrust than the F-16. Just as impressive.

When compared to the Eurofighter the F-35 weighs 15% more than the Typhoon -- 15% which buys you two huge weapon bays, 185% the fuel capacity, extremely low RCS and the accommodation of a STOVL variant.

I do admit that the early figures of the F-35 have it performing no better than a clean F-16, however a clean F-16 doesn't get used in combat. If compared in a long range strike config the F-35 will probably out perform the Eurofighter and Rafale.

The F-35 is EASILY the second best fighter to the F-22.. The F-35 is actually better in some area's.

1) Endurance of the F-35 is better than the F-22.
2) Anti-shipping can be performed by the F-35 and not the F-22.
3) The F-35 will be roughly two thirds the price of the F-22.
4) Close Air support will be better with the F-35 with its EO equipment.

Thats four main reasons why the RAAF would prefer the F-35 over the F-22.

Also the evolved F111S option would leave us with one less squadron. I'm assuming 50 F22A's would be enough to equip 2 squadrons at 24 aircraft a peice and two for training and integration. With the pigs thats 3 squadrons. No matter how good a platform is it can only be in one place at one time. A deployment of an F22 squadron overseas would half our fighter capability for the defence of the mainland. Also APA argues that because the F22 can carry JDAM's or SDB's it is an effective bomber. I dont buy that at all. Maybe for strategic presission strikes, but thats about it. And what about maritime strike. If need be all 4 RAAF squadrons can conduct marritime strike operations at the moment, the pigs are obviosly the primary platform because of range and payload, but with tanker support the bugs can still do that job quite well, especially with the JASSM purchase. However Kopp's plans would leave us with one squadron capable of maritime stike, thats 12 aircraft. I tell you what that would keep me up at night. Ever heard the term "all your eggs in one basket". We could have bought F15C instread of the bugs, it would have provided exellent air superiority over the last 20 years, but for the same money we would have bought less of them, and then we only have the pig as a strike platform. Yet we bought the Bug and it was a damn good choice IMHO. It was much better than anything in the region in air to air combat, untill malaysia bought the SU 30MK, and i'm not sure if thats even in squadron service yet. But the F35 will be much much better than any russian aircraft out there now, or in the foreseable future. The same reasoning is behind the F35 choice. So why is the 'big bad dog' so desperatly needed for the RAAF, especially when all it can do is dogfight (all be it very well) and we can only afford two squadrons, when there is a mutch more flexable platform out there, which we can afford to equip 4 squadrons with? Personally i think as long as it comes in at a reasonable cost, it is a much better option.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Request For Your Assistance

Response to RAJMAZ1 Post # 497.

This thread is entitled "Aussie JSF to outcost F-22s?".
Would very much appreciate it if you could kindly stay on topic or as close to a semblance of it as you can. I realise we all stray at times (including good old Occum) but have noted you tend to do so more than most and in a way that is highly distracting and less than helpful.

Also, could you please keep your comments, particularly claims and assertions, to things in which you have some level of competence. From what has been posted in your #497 and previous, this does not include anything to do with aircraft performance, handling qualities or military flying, in general.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Occum et al

:)

PS: Hey, Ozzy - could you think about doing the same, please.

Oh, and by the way (though off topic), the current Chief of Air Staff, US Air Force, General Mike Moseley, reckons the F-22 is "the best bomber aircraft the USAF has ever had".

It is, after all, the Air Dominance Fighter of the current age - replete with the requisite full spherical, broad band VLO stealth (that's better than minus 20 dBSM from all aspects); fully integrated avionics; high agility and total energy manoeuvrability over full envelope; and, super cruise - oh, plus it has four weapons bays for carrying weapons and other stuff internally plus it has the performance and aerodynamics to employ effectively the VLO pods for the external carriage of stores and fuel and other stuff.
 
Last edited:

knightrider4

Active Member
F111 Workforce

So the highly skilled F111 workforce is in jeopardy. But wouldnt their jobs be in jeopardy when this pig eventually retires in 2080. On a serious note their jobs will eventually go whether its in 2010, 2020, 2080 or 2150.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Not Only Jobs But Capabilities

So the highly skilled F111 workforce is in jeopardy. But wouldnt their jobs be in jeopardy when this pig eventually retires in 2080. On a serious note their jobs will eventually go whether its in 2010, 2020, 2080 or 2150.
With the greatest of respect, we are not just talking about jobs here but capability.

Rightly or wrongly, the downsizing of our Defence Forces that occured throughout the 1990's resulted in significant parts of our defence capabilities in the form of in-service support, engineering skills and competencies, and such things as the where-with-all for managing and controlling configurations being put out into the Australian Defence Industry. In other words, our Industry became an integral part of Australia's defence capabilities.

This work has, for some time, been the target of overseas interests. Take a look at the HUG Project and you will see that the bulk, if not all, of the high value and value add work - the engineering design, development, integration and T&E - has been done by overseas interests with Australian's left with the screw drivering, stores accounting, and shipping.

Ask the question on behalf of your kids and future generations of Australians -

Should we be allowing the Minister and his Department to be 'de-risking programs' by transfering the sovereign control of the in-service support and configurations of major defence assets into the hands of non-Australians and, as a result, further de-skilling our Nation's workforce?

After all, if you don't have the work, you can't develop the competencies and skills. If you don't have the competencies and skills, you can't develop the requisite knowledge and expertise. If you don't have the requisite knowledge and expertise, then you are in no position to manage what you have. Put this at a national level and it equates to loss of sovereign control.

;)
 

knightrider4

Active Member
Capabilty

I hear and understand what your saying and a lot of what you say has some merit. However in regards the Raptor and arguments on loss of overall capability of the ADF and the civilian infrastructure that supports the ADF we are a minnow who in the overall scheme of things dont really rate. We wont get the Raptor not because of it being unaffordable we have tons of cash but in the scheme of things we dont rate. As a nation we have no real influence simply because we really dont have anything of signifigance to offer in terms of being able to apply leverage in order to get the outcomes we want. Thats how I see it anyway.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Response to RAJMAZ1 Post # 497.

This thread is entitled "Aussie JSF to outcost F-22s?".
Would very much appreciate it if you could kindly stay on topic or as close to a semblance of it as you can. I realise we all stray at times (including good old Occum) but have noted you tend to do so more than most and in a way that is highly distracting and less than helpful.

Also, could you please keep your comments, particularly claims and assertions, to things in which you have some level of competence. From what has been posted in your #497 and previous, this does not include anything to do with aircraft performance, handling qualities or military flying, in general.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Occum et al

:)

PS: Hey, Ozzy - could you think about doing the same, please.

Oh, and by the way (though off topic), the current Chief of Air Staff, US Air Force, General Mike Moseley, reckons the F-22 is "the best bomber aircraft the USAF has ever had".

It is, after all, the Air Dominance Fighter of the current age - replete with the requisite full spherical, broad band VLO stealth (that's better than minus 20 dBSM from all aspects); fully integrated avionics; high agility and total energy manoeuvrability over full envelope; and, super cruise - oh, plus it has four weapons bays for carrying weapons and other stuff internally plus it has the performance and aerodynamics to employ effectively the VLO pods for the external carriage of stores and fuel and other stuff.
Sorry I have to say this is a tad hyocritical given your rapterous promotion of the 'evolved F-111' which, by your own assertion is also outside the scope of this thread. And since you opened that can of worms how can you be in any way confident that you can achieve what you claim with an evovled F-111 givne the problem with the Seasprite, noting these are primarily avionics issues. Are you suggesting you are smater than Litton and Karman or are you playing down the risks.

What you propose with the evolved F111 is probably more ambitious than the Seasprite upgrade and if it goes wrong we spend a lot of money for nothing. Even if you get it right we still have an old orphaned airframe, with a large RCS, that cannot go on forever. Sorry I have to say that if past history is anything to go by (i.e the time taken for the 142 intergration) then I feel the risk is not worth it.

Finally back on track. I would love to see the F-22 in Australina colours as it is the best A2A platform around ..... it is not a bomber! It does not have the strike capablity of the F-35 and any costing should incorprate the full development of that feature if we are going to propose basing the RAAF soley around the F-22. I doubt the US will pay for this work if we are forced to pursue it. They, after will have the F-35, if the aircraft lives up to expectations.

Perhaps another way to look at it is that when the F-18F is to be repalced maybe the F-22 will be a cost effective option in its primary role (removiong the need to pay for the upgrades for a strike version) assuming the US build more as has often been aserted. The combination of the F-35 and F-22 would provide a formidable RAAF.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Take Another Look

I hear and understand what your saying and a lot of what you say has some merit. However in regards the Raptor and arguments on loss of overall capability of the ADF and the civilian infrastructure that supports the ADF we are a minnow who in the overall scheme of things dont really rate. We wont get the Raptor not because of it being unaffordable we have tons of cash but in the scheme of things we dont rate. As a nation we have no real influence simply because we really dont have anything of signifigance to offer in terms of being able to apply leverage in order to get the outcomes we want. Thats how I see it anyway.
I hear what you say but, in the strongest (but nicest) of possible terms, must beg to differ and disagree.

Might I suggest you are succumbing to the 'not-so-great' cultural cringe and 'learned helplessness' induced defeatist attitude that pervades the upper echelons of the Department on this subject. It is somewhat ironic, in a way since, when it comes to the JSF or the Super Dud, the mandarins appear to be walking around wearing rose coloured glasses and not much else.

:shudder

Take another look and you should see that Australia has a lot more to offer than you may think; has a far greater strategic role in the region than you may think; and, is a far greater Nation with far more capability and talented people than you may think who could do a hell of a lot more were they rid of the luddite bureaucrats and nay sayers.

That's how I see it, anyway.

:)
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The F-35 is not a dud. Its a better strike aircraft than the F-22. BETTER! It carrys more and of heavier types. Its also cheaper so we can afford more. Strike is primary what we would use aircraft for.

Australia is not located in a place where complex air to air battles are going to occur. We could add all the planes in surrounding countries and barely get a mish mash of 1 24 plane squadron of operational modern planes. This isn't england, this isn't Japan.

With the F-35 we will have more strike aircraft than ever before, with precision munitions.

Evolved F-111? That sounds like a budget black hole if there ever was one. Reskin, redesign, update avionics, re-engineer. Run an entire unique platform just for australia? It would be cheaper and easier and faster to develop a new aircraft. Look at the seasprites.

No, I think Australia should take the 80+ F-35's and the two carriers and then load them up with everything in the cuboard..
 
Top