F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

Status
Not open for further replies.

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Easy, JSF fly's around with no weapons ,is low on fuel ,has no support,pilot is having a heart attack,and superman is flying aggressor lighting up JSF with lasers firing from his eye's.

Any free thinker can see how JSF is jumped on in the press,ABC program was a joke and the poor punter out in the world think's the Press is always correct in what they print.

The classic example is the APA scenario where all of the Su30 team magically appear and are prepositioned - despite the fact that geographically and logistically there was no way that they could even get that number of aircraft in that location to generate force compression - let alone tactical advantage as they never had or have sensor and companion sensor advantage

and they wonder why the exercise planners regard them as deluded internet warriors
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
yeah. What is sad in a way is that if they want to attack the JSF program, they shouldn't attack the performance part of it. Attacking the financial cost of the project and, calling for someone to step up and assume this massive slide of costs (especially in such times as they are) would be much more effective. Attacking the performance of a machine that, let's be realistic, places many scientific novels one the shelve technology wise, is a dumb thing. And note that i'm not a professional in the area. Just reading info available publicly on the systems of the air-plane is like, nerd porn.
the more virulent amongst them also fail to understand that even those who are supportive of the aircraft have made it pretty clear that the program model and execution of it was optimistic and have been quite critical of it.

the geniuses who think they know better would still have LM going through traditional Model T Ford production lines rather than try and understand that you can do parallel development - even on planes.

The Swedes, the French, the Brits do parallel development as well - and not a peep emanates from the cheap seats, so you have to start asking questions about how much knowledge those so-called experts really do have about modern weapons systems development and concurrent development cycles where weapons, weapons systems and platforms can be developed in real time, on and off platform, on mules and in virtual environments. - Its something that's been done with WMD, space based systems and submarines development for decades....
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
funnily enough I'm a convert... I was ambivalent/anti-JSF a few years back (the usual issues of absolute platform performance, range, single engines etc....)

funny how you can change your mind when you get to see the cold hard capability facts /grin
That's the main issue, when people talk rubbish about how a good or not an aircraft can be it's only on a platform v platform basis.

I was watching a history doc about the Battle of Britain the other day and they explained the perfect metaphor for just how hard a network of systems is to significantly disable. The subject isn't the key point but how they explained it was.

They used the explanation in terms of string, a single element (like an aircraft) alone is relatively easy to deal with, you just cut it. However if you introduce a network - like a web - and you try and destroy the network by cutting individual elements then it's a very time consuming process due to the very nature of a network, then imagine while you're doing this the network is repairing itself and you're being hassled by the spider who created the web.

I probably didn't explain it particularly well but that really hit the nail on the head to me how the system as a whole is faaaaaar more important than the individual platforms.

EDIT: Personally, I can't wait for the F-35 to come into service.

What i'd like more info about (from a UK perspective) is what the plan will be for SEAD. For the UK we're ditching Tornado in 2019 & there's no plan for integrating ALARM on the Tiffy and the idea of having a ARM variant of Meteor seems to have gone cold.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
And some people say the F-35 is ugly . . . .

Looks like a damn smart aircraft to me, especially all decked out with US finery.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
And some people say the F-35 is ugly . . . .

Looks like a damn smart aircraft to me, especially all decked out with US finery.
Yep, from some angles it doesn't look to good, but from others it looks fantastic, strange...
 

King Wally

Active Member
It's taken me a while but I've realised that it's best to ignore them. The same hysterical nonsense will be spilling from those sites in 10 years time.

As an average joe sitting in his lounge room interested to know more about the F-35 its actually pretty painful as all you get is spin one way or the other. Its either obvious team america talk about the new wonder weapon or the sky is falling rubbish like 4 corners / air power australia etc put out.

I just wish I could jump on u-tube and watch a balanced commentary about the F-35 that discussed its strengths weaknesses and challenges and get a reasonable take on the project. Honestly I think I'm yet to find it. Would appreciate any links however if someone has been more lucky then me.
 

colay

New Member
I think the general public were expecting a 5Gen jet to look more dramatic and futuristic-looking. Instead they see the F-35 and it doesn't stand out from the legacy crowd. First impressions count and not many will bother to appreciate the jet for what it truly represents and is capable of.
 
And some people say the F-35 is ugly . . . .

Looks like a damn smart aircraft to me, especially all decked out with US finery.
It actually is, and to be honest compared to the F-15, I thought the same thing about the F-22 untill I saw it up close and personal and saw it fly, amazing, and I can't wait until we see the F-35 out on the Air Show circuit. Like you GF I wasn't a big fan, I hate the cancellation of the F-22, which is also a very smart aircraft and far more capable than even supposedly smart folks on DT will give it credit for, in fact in reference to the F-22 some DTalkers are reminiscient of the clown club. Lots of folks don't know lots about the F-22 as it remains highly classifed, makes it an easy target for the "experts". I would remind all that I broke the news of the grounding and shortly thereafter a prediction that its grounding would be short lived, as I was aware that nearly half the hours on that engine were run on the ground, and that means LOTS OF HEAT, and LITTLE Airflow, very hard on any engine, but especially on the F-135 that gains much of its efficiency from running at the very top of the green, temp wise, it requires a lot of air to get the op temps down to a livable range, the only crack discovered on the whole fleet, so that is very reassuring.
Now as to the supposed high expense of the F-22 in comparison to the F-35, thats also very hipocritical, with sequestration and the BHO administration punishing the military and likely civilian contractors, the F-35 is also in the cross hairs of the left, I would suggest that fellow DTalkers quit bashing the F-22 and expend your efforts on defending the F-35, or you will soon know just how ANGRY I am, when your own little bird meets the same fate, I am working dilligently to defend both the F-22 and the F-35, and because I am old, I am absolutely convinced the F-35 will remain a costly bird as well, but worth it, just as the F-22 is worth every nickle, the price of both these aircraft is a pittance in relationship to the tremendous waste of the American government in regard to social welfare at all levels. Elsewise the Air Force Brat will conclude like old Daddy often stated of the "experts", they had their heads "up and locked"! Cheers AFB
Oh and Rob, they were to move four F-35As to Nellis, to be followed by 8 more very soon to the 422nd Tand E, as well as 24As to the fighter weapons school, so we will see the A up against the aggressors very shortly, the clown club will be "eating crow", and like you I can't wait, it will be quite a show! Brat
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Air Force Brat, I think you can do without calling out "supposedly smart" members of the forum for issues they've brought up regarding the F-22. Issues do exist, it doesn't mean the plane isn't capable, and it certainly doesn't bring the average senior member of this forum down to the level of idiocy displayed by APA and their ilk. It simply means that, like everything else in life, the plane isn't perfect. So knock it off.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
As an average joe sitting in his lounge room interested to know more about the F-35 its actually pretty painful as all you get is spin one way or the other. Its either obvious team america talk about the new wonder weapon or the sky is falling rubbish like 4 corners / air power australia etc put out.

I just wish I could jump on u-tube and watch a balanced commentary about the F-35 that discussed its strengths weaknesses and challenges and get a reasonable take on the project. Honestly I think I'm yet to find it. Would appreciate any links however if someone has been more lucky then me.
It's very, very difficult to find that kind of information, and to be honest you're better served by reading through the more informed discussions on some forums than going by military aviation documentaries, which these days are sadly lacking in depth or detail. My only advice would be to watch "Battle of the X-Planes", which is available in full on youtube courtesy of PBS, and while this will not answer your questions about the platform, it does provide a very interesting look at the initial stages of the competition and both Lockheed-Martin and Boeing's attempts to build a contender. Worth watching.

The problem with finding a documentary like the one you describe is that the project is ongoing, so much of it is classified that detailing capabilities would be almost impossible, and there seems to be little inclination in the media at large to produce a detailed look at what is available due to the massive amount of information necessary to understand how and why the F-35 will form a piece of an effective fighting force. It's discouraging indeed, but if I find any links of worth, I'll certainly send them your way. In the meantime if you've got some hours to spare, reading this thread in its entirety will yield a few gems, and it's certainly interesting to watch how attitudes and perspectives have changed over the years. However it is a massive thread, so it does take quite some time.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It actually is, and to be honest compared to the F-15, I thought the same thing about the F-22 untill I saw it up close and personal and saw it fly, amazing, and I can't wait until we see the F-35 out on the Air Show circuit. Like you GF I wasn't a big fan, I hate the cancellation of the F-22, which is also a very smart aircraft and far more capable than even supposedly smart folks on DT will give it credit for, in fact in reference to the F-22 some DTalkers are reminiscient of the clown club. Lots of folks don't know lots about the F-22 as it remains highly classifed, makes it an easy target for the "experts". I would remind all that I broke the news of the grounding and shortly thereafter a prediction that its grounding would be short lived, as I was aware that nearly half the hours on that engine were run on the ground, and that means LOTS OF HEAT, and LITTLE Airflow, very hard on any engine, but especially on the F-135 that gains much of its efficiency from running at the very top of the green, temp wise, it requires a lot of air to get the op temps down to a livable range, the only crack discovered on the whole fleet, so that is very reassuring.
Now as to the supposed high expense of the F-22 in comparison to the F-35, thats also very hipocritical, with sequestration and the BHO administration punishing the military and likely civilian contractors, the F-35 is also in the cross hairs of the left, I would suggest that fellow DTalkers quit bashing the F-22 and expend your efforts on defending the F-35, or you will soon know just how ANGRY I am, when your own little bird meets the same fate, I am working dilligently to defend both the F-22 and the F-35, and because I am old, I am absolutely convinced the F-35 will remain a costly bird as well, but worth it, just as the F-22 is worth every nickle, the price of both these aircraft is a pittance in relationship to the tremendous waste of the American government in regard to social welfare at all levels. Elsewise the Air Force Brat will conclude like old Daddy often stated of the "experts", they had their heads "up and locked"! Cheers AFB
Oh and Rob, they were to move four F-35As to Nellis, to be followed by 8 more very soon to the 422nd Tand E, as well as 24As to the fighter weapons school, so we will see the A up against the aggressors very shortly, the clown club will be "eating crow", and like you I can't wait, it will be quite a show! Brat
First of all mate, it's not "your" F-22A or F-35A, so acting like you're actually responsible somehow for them, is getting more than a little tiring.

It's wonderful that your father served in the USAF and flew some planes. Giving us the insight of his service is welcome but using that as some sort of moral authority over anyone else isn't going to be tolerated for very long.

You didn't break any news on the F-35 to us that I am aware of, from recollection you just quoted Flight Global, which I'm fairly certain many besides myself check regularly...

The F-22A does have problems. Getting ANGRY because someone mentions them is ridiculous. If the F-22A had no problems, it wouldn't have crashed as often as it has, it wouldn't have been grounded as often as it has and it wouldn't need such a horrendously expensive upgrade program only a handful of years after it went into service.

The F-35 has many problems too. So does every other fighter around. There's no need to get on your high horse about it though.

Regards,

AD
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yep, from some angles it doesn't look to good, but from others it looks fantastic, strange...
IMO it looks like a far better looking aircraft than Boeings X-32 with the mahoosive air intake on it's chin, but saying that it always looked like it had a big smiley face on it because of the shape of the intake :rolleyes:

But you are right, from some angles it looks short, stubby with stumpy wings.
 

King Wally

Active Member
It's very, very difficult to find that kind of information, and to be honest you're better served by reading through the more informed discussions on some forums than going by military aviation documentaries, which these days are sadly lacking in depth or detail. My only advice would be to watch "Battle of the X-Planes", which is available in full on youtube courtesy of PBS, and while this will not answer your questions about the platform, it does provide a very interesting look at the initial stages of the competition and both Lockheed-Martin and Boeing's attempts to build a contender. Worth watching.

The problem with finding a documentary like the one you describe is that the project is ongoing, so much of it is classified that detailing capabilities would be almost impossible, and there seems to be little inclination in the media at large to produce a detailed look at what is available due to the massive amount of information necessary to understand how and why the F-35 will form a piece of an effective fighting force. It's discouraging indeed, but if I find any links of worth, I'll certainly send them your way. In the meantime if you've got some hours to spare, reading this thread in its entirety will yield a few gems, and it's certainly interesting to watch how attitudes and perspectives have changed over the years. However it is a massive thread, so it does take quite some time.
Thanks Bonza watching the doco right now actually, 2 hours long but well worth the watch I found.

Link here - Battle of the X-Planes - YouTube

Also that was the first time I saw boeings submission and Rob is spot on, man that chin air intake makes for one ugly looking bird. You would think someone would look at the early design demo's and step in and say "come on folks thats ugly as sin try again". LOL maybe thats just me :D
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
IMO it looks like a far better looking aircraft than Boeings X-32 with the mahoosive air intake on it's chin, but saying that it always looked like it had a big smiley face on it because of the shape of the intake :rolleyes:

But you are right, from some angles it looks short, stubby with stumpy wings.
I always liked the X-32 because it looked so damned ugly. It looked like someone tried to make a "Silent" A-7.

The F-35 looks better than the X-35. There is a graphic showing the differences between the YF-22 and the production F-22 and there are significant differences. I am hoping such a chart comes out in a few years showing the differences between the X-35 and the F-35.
 
First of all mate, it's not "your" F-22A or F-35A, so acting like you're actually responsible somehow for them, is getting more than a little tiring.

It's wonderful that your father served in the USAF and flew some planes. Giving us the insight of his service is welcome but using that as some sort of moral authority over anyone else isn't going to be tolerated for very long.

You didn't break any news on the F-35 to us that I am aware of, from recollection you just quoted Flight Global, which I'm fairly certain many besides myself check regularly...

The F-22A does have problems. Getting ANGRY because someone mentions them is ridiculous. If the F-22A had no problems, it wouldn't have crashed as often as it has, it wouldn't have been grounded as often as it has and it wouldn't need such a horrendously expensive upgrade program only a handful of years after it went into service.

The F-35 has many problems too. So does every other fighter around. There's no need to get on your high horse about it though.

Regards,

AD
I am angry that production of the F-22 was cancelled by politicians who pedal pork, I was pointing out that if similar criticism of the F-35 results in her sharing her big sisters fate, then you might have a little more empathy with my point of view. I will continue to defend the F-22, just as I do the F-35, I certainly give Flight Global and the Air Force Mags Daily Report full credit, if you will check my posts I almost always sight my source. While I am very proud of my Dad, and thanks for reminding all that he faithfully served his country, I am also a product of that life and am proud of that as well as being a private pilot, and having worked as an aircraft mechanic.
That so much conversation regarding the clown club seems to occupy front and center of the F-35 thread does seem to get monotonous, not to mention irrelavent? Cheers Brat

As to your first point, I am a US citizen by birth and I pay taxes, local, state, and federal, and yes I do consider myself an owner, helps me feel better about paying said taxes, thanks, Air Force Brat
 
Last edited:

colay

New Member
I always liked the X-32 because it looked so damned ugly. It looked like someone tried to make a "Silent" A-7.

The F-35 looks better than the X-35. There is a graphic showing the differences between the YF-22 and the production F-22 and there are significant differences. I am hoping such a chart comes out in a few years showing the differences between the X-35 and the F-35.

These will have to suffice for now.
Code One Magazine: X to F: F-35 Lightning II And Its X-35 Predecessors
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am angry that production of the F-22 was cancelled by politicians who pedal pork, I was pointing out that if similar criticism of the F-35 results in her sharing her big sisters fate, then you might have a little more empathy with my point of view.
You can be angry at politicians all you want but that isn't what you said, what you said was that members here were unnecessarily bashing the F-22 to the point of being similar in their level of commentary to one of the most biased, agenda-driven and maliciously dishonest sources of information on the internet. So while your frustrations may (justifiably) be with the politicians, don't shift gears now and pretend you were saying something that you weren't.

I will continue to defend the F-22, just as I do the F-35, I certainly give Flight Global and the Air Force Mags Daily Report full credit, if you will check my posts I almost always sight my source.
You didn't seem to be giving them full credit when you said:

I would remind all that I broke the news of the grounding and shortly thereafter a prediction that its grounding would be short lived
In fact you seemed to be taking credit for some level of knowledge beyond that of the posters here, and that your "breaking news" somehow served as a point of credibility. You have the same entitlements as any other poster here - no more, no less. You'd be wise to remember that.

That so much conversation regarding the clown club seems to occupy front and center of the F-35 thread does seem to get monotonous, not to mention irrelavent? Cheers Brat
Once again, that wasn't a point you made in your original post. I think what happened was you took something someone had said about the F-22 a bit too personally, and reacted accordingly. Which post was it that set you off, by the way? I'd be interested to know which posters here you consider on par with the "clown club".

As to your first point, I am a US citizen by birth and I pay taxes, local, state, and federal, and yes I do consider myself an owner, helps me feel better about paying said taxes, thanks, Air Force Brat
Whatever makes you feel better.
 
First two F-35s arrive at Nellis AFB

6 March, 2013 the first two F-35a's arrived at Nellis for the 422nd T and E Squadron, they where flown from the factory at Fort Worth, Texas according to my sources and there should be two more any day as initially 4 were to arrive before the end of Feb prior to the cracked fan blade grounding.

General Chris Bogdan is now reporting that the intitial 3 F-35a cut the USAF was to take as a result of sequestration, may be increased to 5 in order to spend that money on software upgrades, this is depending on Air Force desires and whether or not they get congressional approval to do so, this from 3/8/2013 AFM Daily Report. Cheers Brat
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top