F-16s no threat to IAF: Air Marshal Bhavnani

Timmy

New Member
Rregarding "ajay_ijn" quote in the third page/post, that "F-16 would be more effective in SEAD Missions than fighting in air with Indian fighters.
Its Jammers can Jam Ground Based RADAR.
It is the Electronics In F-16 that worries IAF not when fighting with their fighters".

My friend u really r living like alice in wonderland. b4 commenting bout the F-16s dog fight potential and capability, i think u better take a look at the air-combat record of the F-16. Over 70+ victories, and no losses!
The PAF was the 2nd country after Israel to use the F-16s in combat. The whole world knows what our F-16s did to the Afghan/Soviet air forces.

Another thing which i would like to point out here is that our F-16s are battle proven. we have used them in action and our pilots have ample experience of how to employ them against India. So dont worry about how the PAF F-16s will be used. On the other hand, the indians really have never used the Sukhois and Mirages not the Migs in active combat! Besides, the Su-30s empty weight is over 25 Tons! so when its loaded with its arnaments, its gona b a flying tank and the PAF will shoot is like a Duck! Bout the BVR missile, no matter how long the range is of the SU30 missles, no manufacturese can gurantee nor any missile has a 100% hitting accuracy. The simple way to evade these BVR missiles is to release chaff and flare dispensers, which the F-16s,Mirages and the F-7s have!
So no matter how many Sukhois u might have or boast,when the dog fight takes place in close combat, its the man in the cockpit that matters the most .Sounlike the IAF pilots, the PAF pilots know dam well how to do their job in a dog fight!
 

xeron

New Member
By Anatoly Shamin, Alexander Ilgov, Vladimir Stepanov
Central Research Institute #30 of the MoD, Russia
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f16-f18-su30-1.html
[January 2001]

An analysis of air force inventories in the majority of countries in the Asia-Pacific region indicates that local fighter forces mostly consist of obsolete U.S.-made F-5 and F-4 aircraft. Only a few air forces are armed with relatively new versions of the F-16 and F/A-18 fighters.

The Su-30MKI design, having retained the best features of the unsurpassed Su-27 air-superiority fighter, boasts enhanced functional capabilities. It should be noted that comparison of the Su-30MKI, a heavy-class fighter, with the F-16C Block 50, F-16C Block 60, and F-18E/F aircraft is largely theoretical, as they belong to conceptually different fighter classes and have their own, preferential areas of combat employment. For example, the F-18E/F version, owing to the F/A-18 basic design, features a more pronounced strike-mission capability, while in terms of dimensions, this aircraft is close to the Russian fighter.

The basic tactical and technical characteristics determining the capabilities of any aircraft include its flight performance and avionics and armament characteristics. Their analysis makes it possible to compare aircraft and assess the level of their technical perfection.

The Su-30MKI’s structural and aerodynamic configuration incorporates the latest research and technological achievements. It is a triplane (a combination of conventional design with foreplanes) with a lifting fuselage and developed wingroot extensions. The interaction of the foreplanes and wingroot extensions creates a controlled vortex effect similar to that of the adaptive wing. The F-16 and F-18 designs were developed in the early and mid-1970s. In terms of maximum aerodynamic efficiency, the Su-30MKI, like all Su-27-family aircraft, is unparalleled in the world and outperforms the above foreign counterparts by at least 50 to 100 percent. This is why the latest modernization programs, which gave birth to the F-16C Block 60 and F-18E/F versions, involved the increase of wing span, fuselage length and control surface areas and significantly changed the structural configuration and general layout of their basic versions.

Engines with thrust-vectoring nozzles enable the Su-30MKI to perform such maneuvers as «cobra» vertical reverse, roll in «bell» turn in «cobra» etc. In these maneuvers, an angle of attack can reach 180o. These are not purely aerobatic maneuvers: this supermaneuverability can be effectively used in combat. As for the F-16 and F-18 aircraft, their maximum angles of attack are 30o and 40o, respectively, and they cannot use armament at supercritical angles of attack.

In terms of conventional maneuverability characteristics, all these fighters are very similar. However, according to preliminary assessments, the Su-30MKI’s supermaneuverability gives it a 30-percent superiority over its competitors in close air combat. Aircraft multiple capabilities put into the forefront the problem of effective weapon employment. To solve this problem, the Su-30MKI has a copilot/operator to improve the crew’s performance, weapon employment efficiency and provide for group missions.

The role of avionics in aircraft combat employment is ever growing. A number of the Su-30MKI fighter’s subsystems (navigation and communications equipment, cockpit instruments) are being developed jointly with foreign companies. Consequently, these subsystems will be technologically on a par with the best foreign counterparts. The superiority of the Su-30MKI’s radar in terms of target detection range, scanning sectors and jamming immunity makes it highly effective in long-range air combat.

Modern Russian fighters are equipped with an advanced optronic system designed to search, detect, lock on, automatically track aerial and ground targets and destroy them by onboard weapons. An optical locating station and a helmet-mounted sight incorporated by the system provide for effective weapon employment against aerial targets. The high accuracy and jamming immunity of the system interfaced with the onboard radar make it possible to detect targets at a range of up to 50 km and engage them in good time, significantly enhancing the fighter’s overall combat capabilities. The helmet-mounted sights have only recently appeared on foreign fighters. As for optronic equipment used against ground targets, the capabilities of the F-16’s LANTIRN and F-18E/F’s ATFLIR systems are close to those of the Russian-made analog, although foreign developers maintain a priority in this field.

Compared to the F-16C Block 50, a heavy weapon load carried by the Su-30MKI significantly (by 20 percent) reduces the time required to defeat ground targets by one sortie, especially when using aerial bombs. The F-18E/F fighter is planned to have a similar combat load capacity in the future.

Notably, in terms of quantity and types of weapons, the Russian fighter considerably outclasses the F-16C Block 50 and F-16C Block 60 aircraft. Only the F-18E/F is close to the Su-30MKI in this respect.

In terms of target designation angles, maneuverability, etc., the R-73E close-range air-to-air missile in service with the Su-30MKI significantly outperforms similar foreign missiles and is rightly considered the world’s best in its class. The high energy and ballistic parameters of the Su-30MKI’s long-range air-to-air missiles, combined with the capability of its radar, allow it to deliver preventive strikes against aerial targets, including its potential rivals.

Fitted with 12 weapon stores, carrying a full complement of air-to-air missiles and featuring a multichannel target engagement capability, the Su-30MKI fighter can be effectively used to repulse a massive air raid.

The Su-30MKI has a twofold advantage over the F-16 aircraft in the number of simultaneously carried air-to-ground guided weapons, which are also more efficient. High-power guided weapons carried by the Su-30MKI enable it to defeat deeply buried, hardened and superhardened priority targets. The Su-30MKI’s medium-range guided missile can be launched at stand-off ranges. The F-18E/F fighter is expected to be armed with similar missiles after 2005. It will be also equipped with air-to-surface missiles guided by a satellite navigation system, although export deliveries of these aircraft are unlikely in the near future.

Antiradar and antiship missiles in service with the Su-30MKI fighter excel their foreign couterparts in their mean speed.The Su-30MKI’s gun features higher accuracy and better armor piercing capability against lightly armored vehicles. Owing to its unique features which favorably distinguish it from foreign counterparts, the Su-30MKI is rightly considered one of the best multirole fighters at the beginning of the 21st century.

Aircraft combat capabilities are usually assessed using complex efficiency indicators defining aircraft overall performance. According to preliminary estimates, in long-range air combat, the Su-30MKI outperforms the F-16C Block 60, F-16C Block 50 and F-18E/F aircraft by 15, 20 and 12-15 percent, respectively, owing to its radar’s greater detection range, higher jamming immunity and multichannel capability, as well as better maneuverability.

he Su-30MKI’s supermaneuverability and better air-to-air missiles give this aircraft superiority in close air combat in which it excels the F-16C Block 50 by 10-15 percent, F-16C Block 60 by 20-30 percent (as the high wing loading significantly limits its maneuverability in close-range combat), and F-18E/F by 15-20 percent.


Opposing Forces: IAF Su-30K and PAF F-16 Fighters

In terms of ground strike capabilities, the Su-30MKI outperforms the F-16C Block 50 by 50 percent and the F-16C Block 60 by 100 percent owing to its better surveillance and fire control radar system, higher survivability, better maneuverability, heavier combat load and longer flight range. The F-18E/F, following its modernization which has increased its flight range, armament suite and ammunition load and upgraded its surveillance and fire control radar system, still lags behind the Su-30MKI in strike capability by 15 to 20 percent.

Another distinguishing feature of the Su-30MKI is its high versatility. It can be used as an air defense interceptor, a strike aircraft or a flying command post. It can be used as a leader aircraft of combined fighter groups (including those of light fighters), ensuring their cooperation and concentration of efforts. In addition, the SDU-10MK digital fly-by-wire control system makes it possible to use the Su-30MKI as a combat trainer.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
:cop :cop

Xeron, Referenced articles must include the original source for validation. It is also expected that posters contribute to the article as well. Ie a comment on the subject pertinent to the reference material.

Please edit your post to reflect the source and add your own comments.
 

xeron

New Member
Mr Mod

The following link will direct you to the source page for the article comparing Sukhoi and F - 16 that was posted in this forum

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f16-f18-su30-1.html

Although i must point out in ur advisory note for me, u have particularly stated that "Referenced articles must include the original source for validation", therefore the first three lines of the posted article, I think, suffice, for they explicity state the authors of the article and their validified credentials. My primary objective when posting that article was to pass on some information which came from some reputed verifiable sources.
If veracity is the key criterion on this defense forum then it is for the moderator to verify every piece of information that is revealed or every instance that is cited, I have gone through the messages that have been posted out here and some of them sound nothing but propaganda material, (Admin: Then you obviously didn't look far enough!) I sincerely hope that my posting of an article that seemingly stated that the Soviet origin Sukhoi is superior to the american F 16 has NOT hurt your feelings, and if it has, I submit my apologies for the inadvertent harm caused.

Admin: It's not a matter of hurt feelings, it's a matter of abiding by the forum rules. You would have seen the list of banned users in your travels if you have read all of the posts in here - note the reasons for banning and you'll appreciate the concern.

Peace to all mankind.
Regards
Xeron
 

srirangan

Banned Member
xeron,
I don't think your article has hurt gf's feelings; it's just a common practice here to post the url if the entire article is being posted. That keeps DT out of -copyright violation- troubles.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Rregarding "ajay_ijn" quote in the third page/post, that "F-16 would be more effective in SEAD Missions than fighting in air with Indian fighters.
Its Jammers can Jam Ground Based RADAR.
It is the Electronics In F-16 that worries IAF not when fighting with their fighters".

My friend u really r living like alice in wonderland. b4 commenting bout the F-16s dog fight potential and capability, i think u better take a look at the air-combat record of the F-16. Over 70+ victories, and no losses!
The PAF was the 2nd country after Israel to use the F-16s in combat. The whole world knows what our F-16s did to the Afghan/Soviet air forces.

Another thing which i would like to point out here is that our F-16s are battle proven. we have used them in action and our pilots have ample experience of how to employ them against India. So dont worry about how the PAF F-16s will be used. On the other hand, the indians really have never used the Sukhois and Mirages not the Migs in active combat! Besides, the Su-30s empty weight is over 25 Tons! so when its loaded with its arnaments, its gona b a flying tank and the PAF will shoot is like a Duck! Bout the BVR missile, no matter how long the range is of the SU30 missles, no manufacturese can gurantee nor any missile has a 100% hitting accuracy. The simple way to evade these BVR missiles is to release chaff and flare dispensers, which the F-16s,Mirages and the F-7s have!
So no matter how many Sukhois u might have or boast,when the dog fight takes place in close combat, its the man in the cockpit that matters the most .Sounlike the IAF pilots, the PAF pilots know dam well how to do their job in a dog fight!
well said!!!!!!!!! :smokingc:
 

insas556

New Member
[ My friend u really r living like alice in wonderland. b4 commenting bout the F-16s dog fight potential and capability, i think u better take a look at the air-combat record of the F-16. Over 70+ victories, and no losses!
The PAF was the 2nd country after Israel to use the F-16s in combat. The whole world knows what our F-16s did to the Afghan/Soviet air forces.

Another thing which i would like to point out here is that our F-16s are battle proven. we have used them in action and our pilots have ample experience of how to employ them against India. So dont worry about how the PAF F-16s will be used. On the other hand, the indians really have never used the Sukhois and Mirages not the Migs in active combat! Besides, the Su-30s empty weight is over 25 Tons! so when its loaded with its arnaments, its gona b a flying tank and the PAF will shoot is like a Duck! Bout the BVR missile, no matter how long the range is of the SU30 missles, no manufacturese can gurantee nor any missile has a 100% hitting accuracy. The simple way to evade these BVR missiles is to release chaff and flare dispensers, which the F-16s,Mirages and the F-7s have!
So no matter how many Sukhois u might have or boast,when the dog fight takes place in close combat, its the man in the cockpit that matters the most .Sounlike the IAF pilots, the PAF pilots know dam well how to do their job in a dog fight!
[/quote]


Indians not having combat experience, the Pakistani super pilot only knowing his job, dodging a BVR is a simple matter of a chaff/flare dispenser. the Su-30 is so heavy it does not fly, war is a duck shoot. With all but one of our wars with pakistan, Indian forces have done their share of fighting.The forces have had their share of losses,men killed, mistakes made , air craft lost but the fight went on , what happened in the wars is known to all of us.
With notions like these i wonder who is living is in wonderland.If myths and mis-placed emotions alone could win wars, the history of Pakistan would be quite different.

BTW Mirages and Mig 29s not fighting! maybe you never heard of Kargil.This might help:
http://www.geocities.com/vayu_sena/videos/Mirage-2000_PGM.mpg

shows IAF Mirage-2000H in action in Kargil.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
as per Sri's response in my absence:

I don't think your article has hurt gf's feelings; it's just a common practice here to post the url if the entire article is being posted. That keeps DT out of -copyright violation- troubles.
that is the reason and was articulately and succinctly put.


xeron said:
If veracity is the key criterion on this defense forum then it is for the moderator to verify every piece of information that is revealed or every instance that is cited, I have gone through the messages that have been posted out here and some of them sound nothing but propaganda material, I sincerely hope that my posting of an article that seemingly stated that the Soviet origin Sukhoi is superior to the american F 16 has NOT hurt your feelings, and if it has, I submit my apologies for the inadvertent harm caused.
It would pay to read a lot more posts and responses of mine before you assume that I'm asking you to comply with forum policy only because I might be offended at comments about one platform over the other. It's an egalitarian society in here, I will ask everyone responsible for any posts that I see to do the same. - If I don't do it - one of the other mods will.

I must confess to being curious as to why you would think I was pro-F-16 and anti-Su-27?
 

xeron

New Member
Reason for why i thought u might be pro-F-16 and anti-Su-27?


Well i explicitly stated that "Soviet origin Sukhoi and american F- 16", now combine that with the days of the cold war and we have a perfect combo for a bias against the sukhoi.

If u still don't get it, .... in that case, ...........bluntly put, the australians subscribe to the american view point and vindicate it from time to time, be it the latest iraqi war or the assault on afghanistan and so on, so i assumed that u wud, as any patriotic nationalist pro americana would, be biased against the russians and any article that endorses their dfence products,..... far stretched u might say.... and i think too, now.
So no offence intended.
Peace
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
as for the copy right thing associated with Defencetalk, i got the message and acknowledged Sri.......
 

adsH

New Member
xeron said:
If u still don't get it, .... in that case, ...........bluntly put, the australians subscribe to the american view point and vindicate it from time to time, be it the latest iraqi war or the assault on afghanistan and so on, so i assumed that u wud, as any patriotic nationalist pro americana would, be biased against the russians and any article that endorses their dfence products,..... far stretched u might say.... and i think too, now.
So no offence intended.
Peace
you slapp the person first and then you offer a comment "no offense" at the end, youve got some gut!!

the article you posted sounded more-like a add from my prospective i see Russian equipment as older and something that requires alot more work while they have some brilliant stuff. id like them to spend abit more on R&D, this article you posted seemed like it contained technical point merely to impress a reader An amateur of course.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
xeron said:
Reason for why i thought u might be pro-F-16 and anti-Su-27?


Well i explicitly stated that "Soviet origin Sukhoi and american F- 16", now combine that with the days of the cold war and we have a perfect combo for a bias against the sukhoi.

If u still don't get it, .... in that case, ...........bluntly put, the australians subscribe to the american view point and vindicate it from time to time, be it the latest iraqi war or the assault on afghanistan and so on, so i assumed that u wud, as any patriotic nationalist pro americana would, be biased against the russians and any article that endorses their dfence products,..... far stretched u might say.... and i think too, now.
So no offence intended.
Peace
No offence taken. But a small word of advice - it would pay to read a lot more posts of mine rather than make assumptions about what I may or may not think. ;) You've obviously never read any of my recent comments about the Su-27. As for your grasp on Australian politics, if you analyse Australian Military history since the time of the Crimean War, you may be in for a shock over how and why Australia has participated in war - and who we side with etc... Your grasp of australian military history seems rather limited. Minimise your personal bias and generalisations so that it doesn't pollute the quality of your responses and everyone will be happy. ;)

xeron said:
....as for the copy right thing associated with Defencetalk, i
got the message and acknowledged Sri.......
and as much as I appreciate the assist from Sri, as Mod I am reinforcing it from the sites perspective.

Now that we're all clear, back to the topic.
 

xeron

New Member
Thanks adsH,

Man u got an eye for amateurs, congratulations, that said, It is my duty to inform u that it is better to be an amateur who indulges in technical articles which are verified, accurate and state facts and (supposedly) try to impress readers, rather than being a proffesional who metes out his proffesionalism in the form of Lewis carrol characters with unreigned fantasies regarding superiority in avionics in the Indian Peninsula.
Regarding the russians spending more on R & D, this amateur agrees with the professional on that point, but keep in mind that when the americans had to develop the F 117 A stealth fighter (cud be the other stealth bomber, but am sure it was stealth tech.) they had to refer to a russian authors (in Soviet times) physics manual to get their facts straight on how to bounce off the radar beams from the jets body to avoid detection........ source for this ??, well u can check out discovery channel ( and its american of course) and their schedules to watch that particular program in which this info was divulged. So the russians even then were superior and even today are technologically apt within themselves to invent and innovate, although the cash flow may not be so superfluos as in americas case it is, but they can produce wonders and they do not have to depend on brain drain (from other nations, like america) for their technical manpower.
 

adsH

New Member
"""who metes out his proffesionalism in the form of Lewis carrol characters with unreigned fantasies regarding superiority in avionics in the Indian Peninsula."""

military hardware is not always what it seems so caution should be taken while analyzing articles military hardware. Avionics change as technology change (COTS) and if technology can change every month then i can only imagine how fast military hardware can be updated, keeping in mind military budgets. Non of us here are "fantasists" as you implied "fantasies" fantasists are those who create weapons systems like F-16 and Su they know what they do is a leap forward where no one has gone before, we merely try to pick up there bread crumbs and trace there routes.
What you seem adment on believing is the fact that a Developer has come out praising his designs as a top design in the world, i see this as advertisments, rather then a fair and balanced analysis of the two platforms, the F-16 is a multi-role AC which can also effectively defend its airspace its track record in safety and effectiveness and its track record when it comes to wins is undisputedly one of the best. And its numerous updated versions seem to Suggest how expandable the platform really is.
 

xeron

New Member
I must agree on this point at least that when it comes to developers, they may try to advertise their products by being a little extravagant in their praise for their produce.
 

cheenamalai

Banned Member
Hey man..
No matter what u say.. guess what F-16s are probably most effiicient planes in the world even NATO is using em!! :D
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Another meeting with F-7 Pilot rgarding Su-30 vs PAF.

This time he told me few interesting things. He says that the things that make Su-30 best r also the things that might get it into trouble.

E.g: High Altitude:

F-22 is the best in the world & it can fly to quite a hight but it cant stay there for long time cause of increase in Cabin Pressure which will lead to lack of Oxygen.
Than how do u consider that Su-30 will stay long time a high altitude. It will have to come down sooner or later. Staying at high altitude with low oxygen & high cabin pressure will also exaust the pilots efforst to fight when he comes down.
Su-30 cant even run off from the battle field at the high altitude cause of the same reason. Pilot will suffer mental & physical damage.
So it will come down sooner or later.

Long Range:

Well it can fly back deep into India & leave PAF pilots behind but than again on its way while on PAK airs it will meet all kind of air defences, untill its way inside India.

The Famous Cobra:

Thats the best thing he says he has ever seen in any jet.
By this Su-30 can put the chasing enemy jet suddenly in front of it & get the radar lock. But hay as its speed will slow off & it would be like almost hanging in the air, an other enemy fighter jet will take its shot at it & it will go down.

Pilots:

He says that there r very few pilots in Russia that know Su-30, its battle mode & its manuverbility, very well. It is believed that the number is around 24 to 27. & the best amongst them r the 3 test pilots of Su-30.
So if Russians lack the man power on Su-30 how do u expect Indians to be any good. Infact IAF hasnt got much of a fly time on Su-30. We have got guys who have flew F-16s more than Israelis. They r no.3 in fly time after USAF & Belgium. So IAF have to think before sending a Pilot has flew Su-30 only 30 times with only few 100 hrs fly time against F-16 pilot who has flew 2000+ hrs & over 1000 times. Experiance counts.
----

I asked him Su-30s abilities with AWACs & he says whats the use of a jet that cant perform well with out some sort of Radar support. AWACs partnership is disadvantage to it.

---

As he was off to duty he said that he knows a guy he has been to Ukrain & has had a training on MiG-29,F-15,Su-27 & may possibly have flown Su-30 in Ukrain. I'll ask him abt Su-30 against PAF & his comments on what Su-30 can realy do & cant do.

His final comments of Su-30:

"The best there is if the best is in the cockpit, But what ever we believe its still superior & cant be under-estimated, not even when the worse of pilots is in the cockpit. If he doesnt know the jet but knows the weapons he can be damaging"
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
SABRE said:
F-22 is the best in the world & it can fly to quite a hight but it cant stay there for long time cause of increase in Cabin Pressure which will lead to lack of Oxygen.
No offence meant to your contact, but this is absolute rubbish. I'd be checking what your friend actually said as even a cursory look at how any jet fighter operates at altitude (let alone the F-22) - would show that he's ignored what actually happens up there.

Similarly some of the comments about the Su-30 and AWACs and how air battle management works are way off base - he seems to have ignored the capability of the Flankers radar system - which some refer to as being like a mini frontal AWACs in its own right.

I suspect that there has been some loss in translation - as a combat pilot would know these things.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
gf0012-aust said:
SABRE said:
F-22 is the best in the world & it can fly to quite a hight but it cant stay there for long time cause of increase in Cabin Pressure which will lead to lack of Oxygen.
No offence meant to your contact, but this is absolute rubbish. I'd be checking what your friend actually said as even a cursory look at how any jet fighter operates at altitude (let alone the F-22) - would show that he's ignored what actually happens up there.

Similarly some of the comments about the Su-30 and AWACs and how air battle management works are way off base - he seems to have ignored the capability of the Flankers radar system - which some refer to as being like a mini frontal AWACs in its own right.

I suspect that there has been some loss in translation - as a combat pilot would know these things.
could be.... Doesnt have much of a knowledge in this. Just been assigned to F-7 training. 15 days or so. Thats y he said he wuld contact his official who has flew in Saudi F-15, PAF-16 & Ukrainian MiG-29,Su-27 & possibly 30. He said he ll ask him to email me or add me to msn, so i could ask him. If that happens I copy paste what he says from msn or email. Better take it from Some one who has been in a Sukhio cockpit.
It would interesting to c some one who knows both Viper/Falcon & Flanker comment on this. May be I can get him to post few things on this thread.
 
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