Eurofighter Typhoon Discussion Thread

[Grand Danois]

UK bid to offload Eurofighter jets it cannot afford

By Stephen Fidler, Sylvia Pfeifer and Alex Barker in,London

Published: August 20 2008 03:00 | Last updated: August 20 2008 03:00

The UK has held talks with other countries, including Japan, about offloading large numbers of Eurofighter Typhoons that the Ministry of Defence has ordered but can no longer afford.

The discussions, which are at an early stage, underline the size of the cash crisis facing the ministry, which has been grappling with an estimated budget deficit of £2bn ($3.7bn).

The Royal Air Force, which had ordered 144Eurofighters, is committed to buying another 88 of the aircraft as part of its membership of the four-nation Eurofighter consortium, which includes Germany, Italy and Spain.

The UK would face severe financial penalties if it decided to cancel or cut this number and has started to sound out potential buyers for all or part of its order.

Defence officials have confirmed that Japan, Saudi Arabia and India are among countries that have expressed interest in buying the aircraft.

Japan's interest will surprise many in the industry as the country has historically tended to buy from US manufacturers. India, which has traditionally bought Russian fighters, has made no secret of its ambition to expand its indigenous defence capabilities and is evaluating bids from five parties, including Eurofighter, for a multi-role combat aircraft.

India's tender would potentially be a lucrative order for the Eurofighter consortium.

For the UK to divert aircraft intended for the RAF to India would need approval from consortium partners. The transfer of sensitive military technology is likely to be a potential hurdle.

The Saudi Royal Air Force has 72 Typhoons on order from the UK government under an agreement signed last September, to be built by BAE Systems, the UK's largest arms contractor.

Separately, Riyadh had begun negotiations with the UK to buy 48-72 additional Typhoons, a source close to the Saudi government confirmed.

Any agreement on offloading the RAF Eurofighters is unlikely to be reached before next year.

The ministry said: "We would not comment on government-to-government discussions, even to confirm that such discussions are taking place."

The four nations in the Eurofighter consortium are negotiating over whether each must buy the same number of aircraft from the group as originally agreed.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6ffbe39a-6e50-11dd-b5df-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1

Posting it here as reference.

 

[Scorpion82]

Eurofighter is currently marketed in the following countries:
- Swiss
- Romania
- Greece
- Bulgaria
- India
- Japan
- Brazil

I additions the Oman has shown an interest in the aircraft with discussions under way. Chile has informed itself about the aircraft as well. Turkey is unlikely though often still listed.

Regarding the article above.
Saudi Arabia will assemble its own aircraft starting with the second batch. It is unlikely that the UK can offload its aircraft. Let alone the tight contracts which don't allow a one sidened reduction without penalties being paid. Ironically it were the brits who initiated this contract system to prevent partners like Germany from withdrawing.

 

[Mike_NZ]

Potential buyers

Wow, didn't know there were so many. Japan is a real surprise there. Any idea of how many they are after for their tender?

 

[Scorpion82]

Wow, didn't know there were so many. Japan is a real surprise there. Any idea of how many they are after for their tender?

80-100. Japan intends to replace its F-4EJ Kai fleet and contenders include the F-15FX, F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter Typhoon. The JASDF prefers the F-22 which is not for sale right now and Lockheed Martin trys to bring in the F-35 instead.

 

[Mike_NZ]

Eurofighters for Austria only tranche 1

Man, just read the article in Flight International Mag, and the 15 Typhoons for Austria will be capped to Tranche 1 block 8 level. Such a shame, no PIRATE or DASS, just chaff and flares. Apparently the reason is that it's currently a nightmare trying to source all the sophisticated parts and integrate them to work for Austria. Wonder if the Saudis will experience the same problems.

 

[Satorian]

Apparently the reason is that it's currently a nightmare trying to source all the sophisticated parts and integrate them to work for Austria. Wonder if the Saudis will experience the same problems.

I think Austria deleted them from their spec to "save" money. The whole deal is a political minefield in Austria and the MoD there hasn't exactly done his country a great service with his cuts that barely save money, yet capped the Austrian Typhoon's performance considerably.

 

[swerve]

80-100. Japan intends to replace its F-4EJ Kai fleet and contenders include the F-15FX, F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter Typhoon. The JASDF prefers the F-22 which is not for sale right now and Lockheed Martin trys to bring in the F-35 instead.

The F-35 has a major delivery date problem. If Japan waits for F-35, it will end up retiring all the F-4s before the first replacement is delivered.

 

[Scorpion82]

The F-35 has a major delivery date problem. If Japan waits for F-35, it will end up retiring all the F-4s before the first replacement is delivered.

I know. But I wouldn't be surprised if Japan accepts the hole due pressure from the US.

 

[Grand Danois]

OK, if the EF is up for the Japanese I'd imagine they'd want the EFs raw performance plus sensors and range. This tells me that a Japanese EF would be likely be featuring an AESA, Meteor and CFTs.

But wrt the CFTs, why not do what the Swedes are doing to the Gripen? Increase the internal fuel volume? Compared to CFTs it should mean less drag, less compromise on g-loading in combat, perhaps less weight, easier maintenance. Do away with the centreline tank and delete it as a wetpoint.

How does that sound?

 

[Scorpion82]

OK, if the EF is up for the Japanese I'd imagine they'd want the EFs raw performance plus sensors and range. This tells me that a Japanese EF would be likely be featuring an AESA, Meteor and CFTs.

But wrt the CFTs, why not do what the Swedes are doing to the Gripen? Increase the internal fuel volume? Compared to CFTs it should mean less drag, less compromise on g-loading in combat, perhaps less weight, easier maintenance. Do away with the centreline tank and delete it as a wetpoint.

How does that sound?

And where to put the LDP then? Such a redesign was probabley easier for the Gripen than it is for the Typhoon. CFTs don't neccessarily change the g-loading at all, though that remains open in the end. One advantage of the CFTs is that you can remove them if not required, more maintainance intensive maybe, but also more flexible. There is ever a downside.

 

[Grand Danois]

And where to put the LDP then? Such a redesign was probabley easier for the Gripen than it is for the Typhoon. CFTs don't neccessarily change the g-loading at all, though that remains open in the end. One advantage of the CFTs is that you can remove them if not required, more maintainance intensive maybe, but also more flexible. There is ever a downside.

The LDP goes on the centreline, which is just no longer a wetpoint. Less weight & complexity.

IIRC the centreline holds 1000L - if you don't use it and add 4000 lbs of internal fuel instead? it should take it above 40% increase. Less drag and less structural weight per lbs of fuel?

Feasible?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The LDP goes on the centreline, which is just no longer a wetpoint. Less weight & complexity.

IIRC the centreline holds 1000L - if you don't use it and add 4000 lbs of internal fuel instead? it should take it above 40% increase. Less drag and less structural weight per lbs of fuel?

Feasible?

CFT's will cost a put load less to develop than to re-design the internal layout of the airframe, the risk will also be significantly less. In short you get the same/comparable effect with only a slight decrease in drag performance for a fraction of the cost or risk. I'd be heading down the CFT path if it was up to me. All the Viper users seem happy with them + you could probably install them on earlier models & you can take them off whenever you want.

Any Japanese buy would be full tranche 2 standard with CAESAR one would think.

The F-35 has a major delivery date problem. If Japan waits for F-35, it will end up retiring all the F-4s before the first replacement is delivered.

Yeah the Japanese are having the same problem with their F-4 fleet as the RAAF has with the PiG (F-111). The F-35 delivery date is simply too late for our 60's vintage kit.

A likely outcome will be the Typhoon/F-15 BII replacing the F-4 fleet and the F-35 replacing the current F-15 fleet. Not a shabby ORBAT if you ask me.

On a slightly OT note does anyone know if the JASDF is looking at replacing its E-2C fleet with E-2D's?

 

[Grand Danois]

Any Japanese buy would be full tranche 2 standard with CAESAR one would think.

I'm more inclined to think it'd be a Japanese AESA.

I'm pondering then what made the Swedes go with an increased internal fuel fraction on the Gripen NG. Was it because it had a lower fraction to begin with or could it be that the Gripen was too small to fit CFTs to?

 

[Scorpion82]

I'm pondering then what made the Swedes go with an increased internal fuel fraction on the Gripen NG. Was it because it had a lower fraction to begin with or could it be that the Gripen was too small to fit CFTs to?

The Gripens internal fuel load is quite small just ~40% or so of what the Typhoon can hold. The Gripens design is different and it was/is more easier to move the maingear position than it is for the Typhoon.

 

[tphuang]

I'm more inclined to think it'd be a Japanese AESA.

I'm pondering then what made the Swedes go with an increased internal fuel fraction on the Gripen NG. Was it because it had a lower fraction to begin with or could it be that the Gripen was too small to fit CFTs to?

the J/APG-1 on F-2 is not that great. Just having the property of being an AESA radar does not make it better. The Japanese have the technology but not necessarily the experience at making really advanced airborne radar. I'd go with CAESAR.

 

[swerve]

I'm more inclined to think it'd be a Japanese AESA.

As tphuang says, Japans first try at an AESA fighter radar wasn't a great success. Nothing wrong with the T/R modules, AFAIK, though they're old technology now, same generation as those on the APG-63(v)2, I think. I'm not sure what caused the deficiencies of the J/APG-1 - software? Hardware other than the TRMs?

Japan is working on a new AESA fighter radar - scroll down to "Multi-Function RF Sensor" on this page as well as shipborne & land-based AESA radars. MELCO has bought Thales technology for the FCS-3 shipborne fire control radar, & it's possible that MELCO & Thales might co-operate on the new fighter radar.

 

[elmanelary]

Could any one here tell me about eurofighter typhoon and the budget of germany on it?

Could any one here tell me about eurofighter typhoon and the budget of germany on it?

 

[kato]

Wonder if this one will be closed too...

Anyway: 21,705 million euro.

Not including 1,613 million euro currently budgeted for the weapons (IRIS-T, Meteor, Taurus).

 

[swerve]

Wonder if this one will be closed too....

Probably. Elmanelary, can you explain why your posting style is exactly the same as that of elmoktaeb, & your IP & host addresses are almost the same? If they were exactly the same, you'd already be permanently banned, as registering with multiple IDs brings an immediate permanent ban - but for the moment, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

One more pointless thread (there is already a Eurofighter thread, & this question should have been posted there), or a failure to give a prompt answer to my question, & you will be banned.

In the meantime, I'm merging this thread with the Eurofighter one.

 

[Mike_NZ]

Mauser cannon ammo

Hi everyone, does anyone have info on what the ammo capacity is for the Typhoon's 27mm Mauser cannon? I've read that in the recent Green flag it carried 55 armour piercing rounds for strafing purposes. but is this the max?