Eurofighter/Rafale in Service

[contedicavour]

I heard about SAAB taking the Austrian purchase for granted, & virtually pushing the Austrians into the arms of the competition, but with the contacts they had with the Austrian air force, you'd think the Austrians would have been able to convince them of the folly of their ways, & get Gripens for a reasonable price. Which would, in the long run, save Austria a lot of money on operating costs. Sound to me like poor negotiating by both sides.

Well with both Germany and Italy operating Typhoons, it made a lot of sense for Austria to buy some as well. Besides, since Austria was the 1st buyer outside of the original consortium, I suspect it got serious rebates as an "export launch customer"...

cheers

 

[swerve]

Besides, since Austria was the 1st buyer outside of the original consortium, I suspect it got serious rebates as an "export launch customer"...

cheers

Apparently, that's not allowed. Export customers may not be sold Typhoons cheaper than the 4 partner countries get 'em.

 

[Big-E]

Apparently, that's not allowed. Export customers may not be sold Typhoons cheaper than the 4 partner countries get 'em.

You are right... But there are ways to get around that. Like offer some other package for reduced price or for free.

 

[swerve]

You are right... But there are ways to get around that. Like offer some other package for reduced price or for free.

True, & easily done in, e.g., sales to Saudi Arabia. But I don't see much scope for it in the Austrian deal. They haven't bought anything else recently that could have been discounted, & the leaked Typhoon costs (which everything points to being accurate) look as if they're paying full whack for the extras (weapons, support, training, spares).

 

[Waylander]

For sure training is now easy for the austrians. They just have to drive some hundred km north and train at Laage in Germany.
There has always a good relation between the german and austrian army with many occassion where both trained together. The same language makes it even easier.

 

[contedicavour]

True, & easily done in, e.g., sales to Saudi Arabia. But I don't see much scope for it in the Austrian deal. They haven't bought anything else recently that could have been discounted, & the leaked Typhoon costs (which everything points to being accurate) look as if they're paying full whack for the extras (weapons, support, training, spares).

Well Saudis can both afford full cost and need full package (incl training) to be able to use the Typhoons.
If for ex Greece or Turkey were to request Typhoons, I'm sure they would negotiate very hard for lower costs.
Last thing, member countries of the initial consortium often end up paying more than export countries for one reason : huge R&D costs that end up being divided on a smaller number of planes than initially planned...

cheers

 

[simonov]

Is Typhoon and Rafale equal with Mitsubishi F-2 and CAC J-10?

 

[Scorpion82]

Is Typhoon and Rafale equal with Mitsubishi F-2 and CAC J-10?

Rafale and Typhoon are probably superior in most areas. However there is little known about the two asian fighters.

 

[Big-E]

Rafale and Typhoon are probably superior in most areas. However there is little known about the two asian fighters.

Not probably, definetely. J-10 isn't PLAAFs top fighter while Rafale and Typhoon are top of the line. They are in two different quality brackets. As far as the F-2 she was a yen toilet swish. Her flight characteristics make her less maneuverable than a regular F-16 due to being overweighted. Her avionics are a little above a Block 50, nothing special.

 

[tphuang]

Not probably, definetely. J-10 isn't PLAAFs top fighter while Rafale and Typhoon are top of the line. They are in two different quality brackets. As far as the F-2 she was a yen toilet swish. Her flight characteristics make her less maneuverable than a regular F-16 due to being overweighted. Her avionics are a little above a Block 50, nothing special.

J-10 is definitely plaaf's top fighter. As for F-2, its radar maybe AESA, but its actual performance is pitiful, it has like a 37 km detection range. It can't be compared to the American AESA radars at all.

 

[Big-E]

J-10 is definitely plaaf's top fighter. As for F-2, its radar maybe AESA, but its actual performance is pitiful, it has like a 37 km detection range. It can't be compared to the American AESA radars at all.

While your dead on about the F-2 I think some of the Flanker variants are superior to the J-10.

 

[swerve]

Well Saudis can both afford full cost and need full package (incl training) to be able to use the Typhoons.
If for ex Greece or Turkey were to request Typhoons, I'm sure they would negotiate very hard for lower costs.
Last thing, member countries of the initial consortium often end up paying more than export countries for one reason : huge R&D costs that end up being divided on a smaller number of planes than initially planned...

cheers

There are two separate issues here: the production cost, & the development cost, & how each is allocated.
As I understand it, the Eurofighter consortium has rules for this.
1) the development cost is divided among the members. It is not taken into account when calculating export prices.
2) the basis for export prices is the production price charged to the consortium members. The basic export price may not be less. In addition, there is an export levy of a few percent, which is returned to the consortium governments, to go towards development costs. But they may waive the levy, as long as all agree. Or any one may waive its share of the levy.

As far as I can see, these rules mean that subsidising exports requires either everyone to agree to a waiver, or whichever country has negotiated the deal to bear the full cost of the subsidy, including having to compensate the other members. Makes it quite hard.

 

[contedicavour]

There are two separate issues here: the production cost, & the development cost, & how each is allocated.
As I understand it, the Eurofighter consortium has rules for this.
1) the development cost is divided among the members. It is not taken into account when calculating export prices.
2) the basis for export prices is the production price charged to the consortium members. The basic export price may not be less. In addition, there is an export levy of a few percent, which is returned to the consortium governments, to go towards development costs. But they may waive the levy, as long as all agree. Or any one may waive its share of the levy.

As far as I can see, these rules mean that subsidising exports requires either everyone to agree to a waiver, or whichever country has negotiated the deal to bear the full cost of the subsidy, including having to compensate the other members. Makes it quite hard.

You are absolutely right, the rules you mention are still valid.
I was thinking more about what would happen if no more exports arrived after the Austrian and Saudi orders, especially if Batch 3 is deleted or reduced. Then the consortium might end up panicking and offering huge rebates (a bit like Dassault with its still not exported Rafale). Btw the details of the offer of Typhoons to Turkey aren't clear yet, but that is the first real test of the robustness of the Consortium's rules on export rebates...

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Go figure...

Typhoon wins gun dogfight

By Neil Tweedie
(Filed: 03/10/2006)

The RAF has been forced into an embarrassing U-turn on its policy of not allowing pilots of the new Eurofighter Typhoon to fire their gun.

The service has decided to issue ammunition to future Typhoon squadrons and train pilots in using the fighter's single German-made 27mm Mauser cannon, reversing its cost-cutting edict.

The decision follows experience in Afghanistan showing that guns are still one of the most effective weapons when supporting ground troops.
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In a scathing e-mail, a Parachute Regiment major commanding an isolated outpost described air support from RAF Harriers, which have no guns and rely on rockets, as "utterly, utterly useless".

He contrasted their performance with the support offered by US air force A10 aircraft, which are equipped with a 27mm rotary cannon.

At a conference last week, Air Vice-Marshal David Walker, the officer commanding No 1 Group, which includes the Harrier and the newly-forming Typhoon squadrons, said he had decided to proceed with the Typhoon gun, buying ammunition, spares and maintenance equipment.

Seven years ago, the ministry decided to dispense with the gun on all but the first 55 of the 232 Typhoons planned for RAF service, in contrast to the other nations in the Eurofighter consortium, which kept it on all ordered aircraft.

The experts argued that Typhoon did not need anything as crude as a gun. The plan would have saved the taxpayer about £90 million.

But Typhoon is designed to such fine specifications that the loss of the gun created a weight imbalance and it was finally realised that the cheaper and easier option would be to fit a real cannon.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/03/ntyph03.xml

And from DT/news:

100 Production Eurofighter Typhoon Delivered to Royal Air Force

 

[Waylander]

A gun is for sure usefull but I doubt that this major would be as impressed by the 27mm Mauser like by the 30mm monster gun the A-10 uses.

 

[JBodnar39]

A gun is for sure usefull but I doubt that this major would be as impressed by the 27mm Mauser like by the 30mm monster gun the A-10 uses.

Even the smaller 20mm on F-15's and F-18's were used for CAS in both Afghan and Iraq

 

[Waylander]

I know. I just wanted to show that the 30mm of the A-10 might not be the best way to show how other planes with guns give CAS to you.

 

[LancerMc]

The Rafale 30mm gun is one of the fastest single barrel aircraft cannons in the world. It essentially works a lot like a revolver when loading from the main magazine, thus allowing a extremely fast cyclic rate. I am sure the Rafale is a great close in gun fighter, and would be a decent tank buster if it carried more ammo.

The best optics for Air to Air guns come from Sweden. The Viggen had the ability to accurately engage targets up to a range of three miles with their cannon. This feature has been passed onto the Gripen.

 

[Scorpion82]

The Rafale 30mm gun is one of the fastest single barrel aircraft cannons in the world. It essentially works a lot like a revolver when loading from the main magazine, thus allowing a extremely fast cyclic rate. I am sure the Rafale is a great close in gun fighter, and would be a decent tank buster if it carried more ammo.

The best optics for Air to Air guns come from Sweden. The Viggen had the ability to accurately engage targets up to a range of three miles with their cannon. This feature has been passed onto the Gripen.

The Gripen is using the same gun as Typhoon. And the Rafales gun is more optimized for AA than for AG.

 

[contedicavour]

Is the decision on Batch 3 still supposed to take place in 2007 ?

I'm really worried that Batch 3 will not materialize because of budget cuts... the UK is clearly looking at reducing Typhoon numbers to preserve the Army's strength, Spain already has modernizable F18s, Italy may concentrate on JSF instead of on a Batch 3...

cheers