Electronic Warfare

ngatimozart

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How?
Its pretty much impossible, not to mention they will never do it in the first place.
I don't doubt any enemy of any western army will want to degrade navigation, at least to make it difficult for guidance systems on cruise missiles. So they will target GPS in one way or another. But it's very hard.
Cell phone navigation on the other hand no point to degrade, soldiers won't use it, bcs it's dangerous and may give to enemy unit location.
Actually it's quite easy and the Russians have already proven that they can disrupt and spoof GPS. All you have to do is interfere with the signals and corrupt the ephemerals data within them, or render the satellites inoperable. The Russians don't need GPS themselves because they have GLOSNASS and the PRC has it's own SATNAV system.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
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Actually it's quite easy and the Russians have already proven that they can disrupt and spoof GPS. All you have to do is interfere with the signals and corrupt the ephemerals data within them, or render the satellites inoperable. The Russians don't need GPS themselves because they have GLOSNASS and the PRC has it's own SATNAV system.
You don’t have to destroy GPS systems to disrupt them.
You simply corrupt the info in order to make targeting ineffectual.This is what the US did to their GPS during the Gulf wars.
Only the military had the information to receive correct positional info, the rest of us regular users were simply told that the accuracy of the system was “within” a few hundred yards.
In the interests of safety this was promulgated in Notices to Mariners (NTMs) but in different situation it may not be.
 

ngatimozart

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If we talk about Israel 95%+.
No company, or post office for that matter use cellular internet.
Give up.;)



You tried to say that there is such threat if dedicated enemy want to disrupt reservist gathering.



I know it, knowing it, i still say it's not enough. West invested resources in inertial navigation and use GPS as correction(sometimes GPS is not only source of such correction), not main source.
Because area covered by EW is relatively small, it's not effective.
And remember we are talking about satellites, so if you want to spoof and not just degrade it should be aerial based jamming.



I would say i know everything about GPS, that are in open sources. General knowledge you know.
To spoof GPS you need to be between satellite and antenna. GPS use difference time of signal arrival from several sources to determine position.
You need to spoof till either 2 left, or at least majority of satellites if there is more then 3 visible(that is for military application, as elevation is usually known) if military don't filter satellites.
Spoofing GPS from your territory on enemy territory...
There is a lot of GPS work that is not military but undertaken in academic institutions that is not always made available to the public for various reasons, such as commercial sensitivity and other reasons. A lot is published in academic journals, but not all.

I have yet to meet someone who knows everything there is to know about a given topic even if it's based on open source material, so I take that claim of yours as being somewhat arrogant. I don't know exactly how the Russians spoof GPS and if I did I wouldn't be able to tell you because of its security classification. However since they can and do spoof regularly with what appears to be relative ease we know it is able to be done. I would not be surprised that some western militaries have the same capabilities, but they probably tend to keep that information to themselves. You don't go around blabbing about everything that you have, especially in the EW arena.
 

Beholder

Member
I have yet to meet someone who knows everything there is to know about a given topic even if it's based on open source material, so I take that claim of yours as being somewhat arrogant.
Principles of radiolocation, that GPS use are well documented, it's not secret. Actual implementation of certain things are, for example military grade receivers. Same thing with principles you use to spoof GPS, or degrade GPS, they are open source, impossible to hide. Actual capability to implement it is secret. That why i say that area is limited, but can't actually tell exact numbers, bcs i need to know both ability of military receivers to filter and power of RF EW suite.
It's same way as jagging tanks and tank warfare for example. There are open sources and there are secrets. Just as tanks have limits same with EW, just as tank warfare have history same with EW.
Just that tank warfare you can "learn" on TV, or view colourful illustration, result is seen etc.
EW...you actually need to read books, or have background in electronics, specifically radiolocation and math.
It also easier to conceal and lie about EW capability, then tank.
So, i'm not trying to be arrogant.

I don't know exactly how the Russians spoof GPS and if I did I wouldn't be able to tell you because of its security classification. However since they can and do spoof regularly with what appears to be relative ease we know it is able to be done. I would not be surprised that some western militaries have the same capabilities, but they probably tend to keep that information to themselves. You don't go around blabbing about everything that you have, especially in the EW arena.
Guess, there is no point in arguing.

@Beholder

Welcome to the forum. I strongly suggest you don't get smart with those with a blue tag when trying to make your point. Your last comment was quite dismissive.

We are quite happy to have folk with knowledge and experience in systems provide advice but it should be done politely. On the subject of knowledge and advice I am not convinced your claims are justified given your response.

Can you please give us a summary of your expertise to validate your claim.

Alexsa
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
@Beholder you said implementation of GPS spoofing is documented and publicly known. Yet, I could not find a good reading material on that.
Can you roughly explain the principle to me?
 

Beholder

Member
@Beholder you said implementation of GPS spoofing is documented and publicly known. Yet, I could not find a good reading material on that.
Can you roughly explain the principle to me?
No problem, wiki article holds general principles:

GPS spoofing

A GPS spoofing attack attempts to deceive a GPS receiver by broadcasting fake GPS signals, structured to resemble a set of normal GPS signals, or by rebroadcasting genuine signals captured elsewhere or at a different time. These spoofed signals may be modified in such a way as to cause the receiver to estimate its position to be somewhere other than where it actually is, or to be located where it is but at a different time, as determined by the attacker. One common form of a GPS spoofing attack, commonly termed a carry-off attack, begins by broadcasting signals synchronized with the genuine signals observed by the target receiver. The power of the counterfeit signals is then gradually increased and drawn away from the genuine signals. It has been suggested that the capture of a Lockheed RQ-170 drone aircraft in northeastern Iran in December, 2011 was the result of such an attack.[5] GPS spoofing attacks had been predicted and discussed in the GPS community previously, but no known example of a malicious spoofing attack has yet been confirmed.[6][7][8] A "proof-of-concept" attack was successfully performed in June, 2013, when the luxury yacht White Rose of Drachs was misdirected with spoofed GPS signals by a group of aerospace engineering students from the Cockrell School of Engineering at the University of Texas in Austin. The students were aboard the yacht, allowing their spoofing equipment to gradually overpower the signal strengths of the actual GPS constellation satellites, altering the course of the yacht.[9][10][11]

Russian GPS spoofing

In June 2017, approximately twenty ships in the Black Sea complained of GPS anomalies, showing vessels to be transpositioned miles from their actual location, in what Professor Todd Humphreys believed was most likely a spoofing attack.[11][12] GPS anomalies around Putin's Palace and the Moscow Kremlin have led researchers to believe that Russian authorities use GPS spoofing wherever Vladimir Putin is located, affecting maritime traffic.[11][13] There were additional incidents involving Russian GPS spoofing including Norway spoofing during NATO exercise that lead to ship collision (unconfirmed by authorities) [14] and spoofing from Syria by the Russian military that affected Israeli main airport in Tel Aviv. [15]

For military grade receivers broadcasting will not work, bcs military signal encrypted. Rebroadcasting can work theoretically, but there are lot of conditions that not easy to fulfil( for example you must crack encryption in real time and be between sat and receiver) .
So usually military receivers are not spoofed. Enemy will try to create satellite signal to noise ratio that unfavourable for receiver( and they do have such ability to jam receivers build on technology from 199Xs for example :) ).

Also in theory military have ability to protect civilian systems on it's territory from spoofing, by getting signal, then rebroadcasting it stronger. Never heard of someone doing it in practice though.

What RF done that scare ppl is spoofing civilian receivers on territory of another state. It doesn't amount to anything. IMO
As far as i'm aware RF started to invest in this capability to jam GPS receivers of Tomahawk missile(maybe other GPS assisted munition too, i read only about efforts vs Tomahawk) flying above their territory in the first place. At that time inertial navigation was not as accurate as it today.
 

ngatimozart

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No problem, wiki article holds general principles:




For military grade receivers broadcasting will not work, bcs military signal encrypted. Rebroadcasting can work theoretically, but there are lot of conditions that not easy to fulfil( for example you must crack encryption in real time and be between sat and receiver) .
So usually military receivers are not spoofed. Enemy will try to create satellite signal to noise ratio that unfavourable for receiver( and they do have such ability to jam receivers build on technology from 199Xs for example :) ).

Also in theory military have ability to protect civilian systems on it's territory from spoofing, by getting signal, then rebroadcasting it stronger. Never heard of someone doing it in practice though.

What RF done that scare ppl is spoofing civilian receivers on territory of another state. It doesn't amount to anything. IMO
As far as i'm aware RF started to invest in this capability to jam GPS receivers of Tomahawk missile(maybe other GPS assisted munition too, i read only about efforts vs Tomahawk) flying above their territory in the first place. At that time inertial navigation was not as accurate as it today.
@Beholder Wikipedia is not a reputable reliable source. You need to provide better quality sources. This requirement cannot be ignored.
 

Beholder

Member
@Beholder Wikipedia is not a reputable reliable source. You need to provide better quality sources. This requirement cannot be ignored.
I don't need sources at all, i "explaining", not "proving". ;)

But since you ask nicely, here we go:


And some methods to defeat it that civilian use(and similar methods military also use):

 

ngatimozart

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I don't need sources at all, i "explaining", not "proving". ;)

But since you ask nicely, here we go:
Rule #14 You must post source of your information/articles ( link, website, book, magazine, etc.). It was not a request, but a Moderator's requirement. You are arguing semantics and trying to be a smart arse. We don't take kindly to that. You are sailing into dangerous waters.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
@ngatimozart Hi, I was merely asking for a rough explanation of the concept and Wikipedia's explanation is satisfactory.

I think Wikipedia's reputation as a bad source is exaggerated because there is a separate section for sources per every claim.
I understand you're also knowledgeable in RF. Do you have an input on the subject of GPS spoofing?
 

ngatimozart

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@ngatimozart Hi, I was merely asking for a rough explanation of the concept and Wikipedia's explanation is satisfactory.

I think Wikipedia's reputation as a bad source is exaggerated because there is a separate section for sources per every claim.
I understand you're also knowledgeable in RF. Do you have an input on the subject of GPS spoofing?
No only what I read a while back about Russian exercises in Western Russia where they spoofed and jammed GPS as part of the exercise. I didn't keep a record of the articles. I am not an expert in RF but have some experience with GPS in a professional capacity especially with using RTK GPS in a geoscience surveying role. I have also used radio quite a bit plus I did first year physics at university.
 
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