Effect of the massive Saudi military purchases on the region?

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IrishPaddy

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Perhaps the best solution is improving Iran's neighbours convential forces while extending the US "nuclear umbrella" to cover these neighbours (as per NATO & Japan).

This appears to be what is being done though the latter aspect may not be advertised.

This effectively calls Iran's bluff of trying to get "the bomb" to compensate for its economic, military and political weakness. This regime will only survive for a finite period, lets not give them longer by attacking them.

Israel understandably concerned so US reassurance is neccesary; ultimately Israel has good old Mutualy Assured Destruction (MAD) to fall back on.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Perhaps the best solution is improving Iran's neighbours convential forces while extending the US "nuclear umbrella" to cover these neighbours (as per NATO & Japan).
The best solution would be for realpolitik and common sense to prevail and for the U.S. to seek rapprochement with Iran and work out a deal where both countries can benefit. The Iranians are not itching for a fight, for obvious reasons, and would welcome a new turn in relations with Uncle Sam and the West, as there are a lot of areas where all these countries can work together on. Both Uncle Sam and Iran have co-operated before, as recently as a few years ago, why not now?
 
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surpreme

Member
Well that's exactly what the question is about. A game changer for what game ?
For one thing when you produce your own tanks you also have the knowledge to maintain your tanks. If Saudis decide to take a military adverture it with have the knowledge to maintain its own tanks which is a plus. When I said a game changer I mean military operations. If the Saudi get this deal with the Germany's about the Leopord It will help the Saudi alot. I don't have the latest info on the deal so I don't know if the deal is finalize yet.
 

Mosamania

New Member
For one thing when you produce your own tanks you also have the knowledge to maintain your tanks. If Saudis decide to take a military adverture it with have the knowledge to maintain its own tanks which is a plus. When I said a game changer I mean military operations. If the Saudi get this deal with the Germany's about the Leopord It will help the Saudi alot. I don't have the latest info on the deal so I don't know if the deal is finalize yet.
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This is an interview with the head of the Saudi General Organization for Military Industries. He said that one of the Factories under the organization's control is one for Manufacturing and part assembly of the Leopard 2 tanks. You can use google translate it doesn't give a bad translation.
 

surpreme

Member
No they are not toy soldiers. Maybe you can understand if I tell you that in SA they have lots of religious school not techincal school like engineering and mechanic things you fix this might help you understand what we taking about. That what wrong with the Saudis. Now do anyone remember the Saudi had some kind of conflict with Yemen last year. From what I saw they still had some of same problems but not as bad as when I was in Saudi. They lost over 100 soldiers and the Yemen rebels or insurgents capture alot Saudi Humvees and some soldiers. I examine alot of photo and I saw some of the same stuff when I was there. For example while the Saudi were making Salat(prayer) a private contractor was fixing a bradley. There was problems with commanders and units were lost. My point is there was improvement like this operation was done by the Saudi themself.
I remember that operation against Yemen insurgents. I will said after researching that operation the Saudi did perform this operation on there own which is a plus from back in the 1st Gulf War where there performance was not to so good. There were some issue that the Saudis know that they have to improve on during this operation. I did see that the Saudis look like a professional Army. I did see some Saudis maintaining there own tanks but also seen some foriegn contractor fixing some Bradley's There is improvement from the 1990's but still more to improve on. I still don't understand with so much US assistance for over 50 years they still look like they are not ready for a big operation against a force like Iran. The Iranians have conduct big training exercise where they have move whole divisions to other area of Iran. The Saudis did lost some soldiers that was capture by the insurgents. During the start of operation the Saudis had problems moving troops to the border. Overall the Saudi are starting to become self reliance the Saudis need to conduct another operation to show that they have corrected the problems from the previous operation.
 
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Mosamania

New Member
I remember that operation against Yemen insurgents. I will said after researching that operation the Saudi did perform this operation on there own which is a plus from back in the 1st Gulf War where there performance was not to so good. There were some issue that the Saudis know that they have to improve on during this operation. I did see that the Saudis look a professional Army. I did see some Saudis maintaining there own tanks but also seen some foriegn contractor fixing some Bradley's There is improvement from the 1990's but still more to improve on. I still don't understand with so much US assistance for over 50 years they still look like they are not ready for a big operation against a force like Iran. The Iranians have conduct big training exercise where they have move whole divisions to other area of Iran. The Saudis did lost some soldiers that was capture by the insurgents. During the start of operation the Saudis had problems moving troops to the border. Overall the Saudi are starting to become self reliance the Saudis need to conduct another operation to show that they have corrected the problems from the previous operation.

You are correct. The Houthi insurgency was to test Saudi Armed Forces capabilities in general. We did have a LOT of short comings that much is true. However now the entire country is modernizing so it is only natural that the army will as well.

That conflict revealed to us a lot of shortcomings that have been worked on. For instance our total lack of experience in Mountain warfare since our army was built as a desert fighting force for that a mountain training facility and specialized brigades were founded. Also our short comings in on the field intelligence gathering for lack of UAVs etc. Since we have our own UAV program that is not finished yet for that we got the MC-12W Liberty for that.

Not to mention the physical condition of the soldiers which was very poor compared to other armies and thus this problem was also corrected.

Junior Officers leadership skill was fairly good but not good enough. So the training was restructured and re-training courses for all officers took place.

According to a report I read the Air Force got an A. The Navy and Marines got a B+ and the Land forces got a C. The Apache and BlackHawk crews as well as the Special Forces got the highest marks in the Land Forces which brought up he grade o the overall Land Forces.
 

surpreme

Member
You are correct. The Houthi insurgency was to test Saudi Armed Forces capabilities in general. We did have a LOT of short comings that much is true. However now the entire country is modernizing so it is only natural that the army will as well.

That conflict revealed to us a lot of shortcomings that have been worked on. For instance our total lack of experience in Mountain warfare since our army was built as a desert fighting force for that a mountain training facility and specialized brigades were founded. Also our short comings in on the field intelligence gathering for lack of UAVs etc. Since we have our own UAV program that is not finished yet for that we got the MC-12W Liberty for that.

Not to mention the physical condition of the soldiers which was very poor compared to other armies and thus this problem was also corrected.

Junior Officers leadership skill was fairly good but not good enough. So the training was restructured and re-training courses for all officers took place.

According to a report I read the Air Force got an A. The Navy and Marines got a B+ and the Land forces got a C. The Apache and BlackHawk crews as well as the Special Forces got the highest marks in the Land Forces which brought up he grade o the overall Land Forces.
That's the way I would have rated the forces but overall the Saudi have alot to be proud of since the 1st Gulf War where I seen the Saudi forces in person from what I saw they looked not so good in 1990. Once the Saudis get these little problem straight they will be ready for some big operations. I met alot Saudis here in the US and they are proud of there Armed Forces achievement especially the RSAF.
 

Mosamania

New Member
That's the way I would have rated the forces but overall the Saudi have alot to be proud of since the 1st Gulf War where I seen the Saudi forces in person from what I saw they looked not so good in 1990. Once the Saudis get these little problem straight they will be ready for some big operations. I met alot Saudis here in the US and they are proud of there Armed Forces achievement especially the RSAF.
The RSAF is the branch with the biggest experience in the Armed Forces. It flew the second biggest number of sorties and missions in GW1 and earned respect in the region as an effective fighting force.

People forget the differences between the Armed Forces in KSA. You will find the best to be the Air Force because it only recruits people with High grades and SLE grades as well has it's own standards in its selection and it is by far the biggest one to receive graduate recruit papers so naturally it will come out on top. The second is the navy. While the Army was mainly a recruitment center for those who can not find a job anywhere but this has changed recently so expect a better Saudi Army in the future.
 

IrishPaddy

New Member
The best solution would be for realpolitik and common sense to prevail and for the U.S. to seek rapprochement with Iran and work out a deal where both countries can benefit. The Iranians are not itching for a fight, for obvious reasons, and would welcome a new turn in relations with Uncle Sam and the West, as there are a lot of areas where all these countries can work together on. Both Uncle Sam and Iran have co-operated before, as recently as a few years ago, why not now?
Lets not confuse Iran as a country or the Iranian people versus their current regime which they are afflicted with. For the former I would totaly agree with you, for the latter I wouldn't hold out much hope.

The regime is struggling with their profound economic and political failure and betrayal of a genuine popular revolution which they hijacked and perverted.

In summary, not a fan........
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
It flew the second biggest number of sorties and missions in GW1 and earned respect in the region as an effective fighting force.
All due respect to the Royal Saudi Air Force, IMO its operations in the war against Iraq was not a real indicator of its actual abilities as the bulk of the target selection and strike planning for its combat sorties was done by the Americans. Pollack in his book also mentions that RSAF strikes were not as effective as other coalition aircraft in hitting their targets due to the inexperience of GR1 crews, which is understandable, and that the RSAF was given selected targets to hit. I'm surprised the RSAF generated the 2nd highest number of sorties as I would have thought this would have been done by the British and French but then again this could mean the total number of sorties flown during the conflict from the time of the military build up to Iraq's withdrawal from Kuwait, including those that did not come under fire, such as CAPs.

I met alot Saudis here in the US and they are proud of there Armed Forces achievement especially the RSAF.
On paper, the RSAF is more than able to defend Saudi airspace against marauding Iranian aircraft and even launch strikes on its own, but after all the billions spent on new gear and training, this is only to be expected of it. The problem is, like all air arms, we'll only know how it'll actually perform when and if the balloon goes up. In the case of the RSAF, it will not be required to conduct operations on its own [I'm not saying it can't] as any war or skirmish with Iran, will involve support from the U.S. Political reasons, I believe was the main reason Saudi Arabia did not commit the RSAF to air operations over Libya, which was a shame as it would have gained more operational experience from it.

The regime is struggling with their profound economic and political failure and betrayal of a genuine popular revolution which they hijacked and perverted.

In summary, not a fan........
A large part of the population may be against the present leadership but they would unite if strikes were launched, irrespective of political differences. They see Western attempts at 'punishing ' Iran as being hypocritical and smacking of double standards. It's water under the bridge but if the U.S. and Iran had not backed a coup that overthrew a democratically elected leader [for which Obama apologised for recently], leading to the return of the Shah and in turn the rise of Khomeni, the situation with Iran would be very different now.
 
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surpreme

Member
That the one thing that keep the Iranian upset with the US when they had a democrated government they overthrew it. Iranian had election it just you have moderate against the clerlic or guardians of the revolution who want keep it religious. If the revolution didn't overthrow the Shah the Iranian by far would have been the most powerful military in the area and possibly powerful than Israel. During the Iraq-Iran War the Iranian conduct some air assault and armoured formation just like the US Military. The Iranian Air Force by far looked good and perform great. That came from lots of Iranian training in US. US advisor and military assisted started in the late 60's to 1970's the Iranian military learn faster than the Saudi.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
During the Iraq-Iran War the Iranian conduct some air assault and armoured formation just like the US Military. The Iranian Air Force by far looked good and perform great. That came from lots of Iranian training in US. US advisor and military assisted started in the late 60's to 1970's the Iranian military learn faster than the Saudi.
Given the odds that were stacked up against it, the Iranian Air Force performed very well.

I would recommend this book to anyone interested in the subject.

http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

The April Air Forces Monthly issue has an interesting 3 page article on RSAF Typhoons. It mentions that the RSAF, unlike the RAF, performs air to air gunnery with its Typhoons, and unlike the 4 Eurofighter partner nations, has retained night air to air refueling clearance.
 

surpreme

Member
Given the odds that were stacked up against it, the Iranian Air Force performed very well.

I would recommend this book to anyone interested in the subject.

Iran-Iraq War in the Air

The April Air Forces Monthly issue has an interesting 3 page article on RSAF Typhoons. It mentions that the RSAF, unlike the RAF, performs air to air gunnery with its Typhoons, and unlike the 4 Eurofighter partner nations, has retained night air to air refueling clearance.
That right there tell you the RSAF is a capable Air Force.
 
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Belesari

New Member
The best solution would be for realpolitik and common sense to prevail and for the U.S. to seek rapprochement with Iran and work out a deal where both countries can benefit. The Iranians are not itching for a fight, for obvious reasons, and would welcome a new turn in relations with Uncle Sam and the West, as there are a lot of areas where all these countries can work together on. Both Uncle Sam and Iran have co-operated before, as recently as a few years ago, why not now?
Im sorry i just cant agree with you there Sturm. Iran is behind a string of terrorist groups around the world. Its behind bombings in South America, all throughout the middleast and extends its power, influence, and help beyond.

They have come down so hard on the Israelies that if they back off now they will lose alot of face. And FACE is king in the region. Add to that the fact that they are dedicated to getting nukes and have a vested interest in keeping america and israel as the "monster" means that until the regime in Tehran changes we cannot let up.

No, no peace in Iran until regime change.
 
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