EA/18G Growler
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chrishorne
New Member
I'm a bit surprised a f-18e/f could be considered a 'stopgap' for the F-111s until the F-35s come online. I completely understand Australia wanting some F-18Gs but as a 'stopgap' (i.e. not really - still buy F-35s but keep these) with far more credability I would of though something like the F-15SG would be more appropiate. Yes its almost certainly more expensive (althou prob not as much as you would think - SuperHornets are bloody expensive for what they are), and I doubt there is much to gain by having a mixture of f-18a/b and f-18e/f as they are pretty much completely different aircraft. That is, from the comments that the stopgap is need to fill the strategic/tatical strike role . . on the other hand if australia actually needed a stopgap for the fighter role then its hard to go past the eurofighter (especially with the meteor missile or Amraam Ds)
Frankly, I don't see any need for every aircraft to be a stealth aircraft. I highly agree that a mix of Super Hornets and Lightnings would be a proper course to upgrade Australia's air force. Australia should be able to acquire and receive some quickly.
As an American, I don't have any expectations that the Lightnings will ever be built, surely not in large numbers by the Democrats. Take my word to heart, Democrats search to cut defence spending, the top item on their list will be to cut the F-35 since the Repubicans have already ended the F-22 program.
I expect Australia will have to eventually buy their new fleet entirely with Super Hornets. However, any Rafael or Typhoon aircraft purchase will take much longer for any delivery.
As an American, I don't have any expectations that the Lightnings will ever be built, surely not in large numbers by the Democrats. Take my word to heart, Democrats search to cut defence spending, the top item on their list will be to cut the F-35 since the Repubicans have already ended the F-22 program.
I expect Australia will have to eventually buy their new fleet entirely with Super Hornets. However, any Rafael or Typhoon aircraft purchase will take much longer for any delivery.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The F/A-18E/F is the only aircraft being considered because, a) it is in full rate production, which is ahead of schedule meaning potentially up to 12 aircraft could be delivered within 2 years and b) it will be the easiest aircraft for RAAF to transition onto whilst still providing an excellent capability enhancement over existing RAAF fighters, c) it has the greatest commonality with RAAF's existing fighters out of all the options, meaning that supporting the aircraft will be easier than any other fighter.
Eurofighter, F-15, Rafale etc cannot match these requirements, thus they have little to no chance, no matter how capable they might be.
weasel1962
New Member
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Okay, a few points to go over here. For starters, new F-18 C/Ds are not available, production of the C/D models has ended something like ten years ago. Also, the current Hornets operated by the RAAF are the A/B models. The only F-18s currently in production are the E/F/G Super Hornets.
Right now the RAAF operates approx. 24 F-111C/G/RF-111C in the strike, maritime strike, photo-recon & training (for the F-111 platform). According to current plan, the F-111 will be retired in three years, sometime in 2010, having had over 35 years of service. That will leave approx. 57 F-18 A/B Hornets in RAAF service, these cover the air defence, CAS, strike, maritime strike and training/OCU roles. Also, given the age and wear on the F-18 A/Bs (acquired in the early 80's) after the HUG/center barrel replacement, many will still need to be replaced in the 2014-2016 timeframe.
The idea behind the possible lease/purchase of the Super Hornet is to cover the time when the 24 F-111s are not in service, and as a possible cushion for when some of the HUG F-18s have to be retired if there are any F-35 delays.
It has been mentioned that F-111 pilots could be transitioned to either the Tiger ARH or Wedgetail AEW until F-35s are available, however there are several issues with this.
For starters, the Tiger ARH is an Army Aviation, not RAAF aircraft. It has a role completely different from either the F-111 or F-18. A Tiger ARH is for tactical recon & battlefield CAS, an RF-111 is strategic recon, and the F-18 can do CAS, but that isn't a main tasking. Also, there completely different requirements for operating a fast jet like the F-111 or F-18 vs. helicopter training & operations. Lastly, the Tiger ARH is replacing the gunship configured Army UH-1 Iroquois "Huey" so that itself isn't a new capability but an upgrade/replacement of an existing ability.
The Wedgetail AEW&C is a new capability the RAAF will have, but in terms of requirements for piloting, it's basically a Boeing 737-700 (or is it -800?) commercial jet with a canoe-fairing. It is used to detect & track targets, not engage them like an F-111 or F-18 would.
Lastly, part of the goal is to maintain approximately 80 available combat aircraft for the different roles the RAAF has. Unless either the F-35 becomes available sooner than expected or an interim/additional aircraft is purchased, the RAAF will not be able to maintain an 80 aircraft force until 2014 when the F-35 is initially expected.
To reiterate, the purchase of 2 sqd. of Super Hornets would not really be a boost for the RAAF, it would instead maintain capability between the retirement of the F-111 and introduction of the F-35. It would also ease or reduce potential problems if there are further delays on the F-35 in-service date, since by then many of the F-18 Hornets will have reached the end-of-service life, even with the HUG program.
-Cheers
Jezza
Member
I have always wondered how the Australian & Canadian F/A-18A/B Hornets would go in a mid-life upgrade, which removed the aircrafts heavy and unnecessary carrier gear i.e. carrier landing gear, folding wings etc (replaced by solid one-piece wings). Add to this the more powerful GE 404 engines of the later F/A-18C/D model. Would this not suffice to give the F/A-18A/B Hornet’s a significant improvement in flight performance, power-to-weight ratio & maneuverability to see it through till the F-35 is (unfortunately) put into service?
Well that just my thought!
Well that just my thought!
Perhaps ..... but at considerable cost and you still would not get all the systems carried in the later F-18F we are looking at nor is such and option low risk. Given this would only be for a limited number of airframes the developement cost could be quite high per airframe.
@Todjaege
I agree with your reasoning and assessment.
With only 57 F-18 aircraft it will be very difficult to maintain 3 operational squadrons at full strength, allowing for training, scheduled maintenance and crucially the mid-life update program where on some of the aircraft the centre barrel will be replaced.
I do not have the details to hand, but I have the impression that that not all aircraft will receive the full update. Can someone provide details?
Also does the 57 aircraft include platforms allocated to training and support units?
Having additional F/A-18E/F aircraft will enable F-18A/C/D aircraft to be withdrawn from service for update while maintaining the current operation strength.
BTW I was going to argue that switching the F-111 pilots on to radically different types of aircraft was impractical, but I decided not to waste may time with such a non-starter.
Chris
I agree with your reasoning and assessment.
With only 57 F-18 aircraft it will be very difficult to maintain 3 operational squadrons at full strength, allowing for training, scheduled maintenance and crucially the mid-life update program where on some of the aircraft the centre barrel will be replaced.
I do not have the details to hand, but I have the impression that that not all aircraft will receive the full update. Can someone provide details?
Also does the 57 aircraft include platforms allocated to training and support units?
Having additional F/A-18E/F aircraft will enable F-18A/C/D aircraft to be withdrawn from service for update while maintaining the current operation strength.
BTW I was going to argue that switching the F-111 pilots on to radically different types of aircraft was impractical, but I decided not to waste may time with such a non-starter.
Chris
Jezza
Member
F-111 replacement and one airframe required........
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a320/Jeremy70/B-747cruise1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a320/Jeremy70/B-747cruise1.jpg
weasel1962
New Member
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Trouble is, testing done by Canada and Australia showed the Hornets would only reach 73% of their designed centre-barrel fatigue life before significant risk started creeping in, i.e. a little over 4300 hours instead of the designed 6000.
Our issues are different to those of the USN which has forecast a 78% design life for its jets and is experiencing fatigue issues in different areas, mainly due to carrier traps and launches. Ours are mainly induced by higher G loadings because our jets are more fighter-oriented than the mainly strike USN jets.
The RAAF is currently planning to do between 42 and 49 centre barrels, and this is unlikely to change if we get Super Hornets. The Supers will mainly be employed within the ex-F-111 community and skillset, whereas the fighter world will still be required to maintain the same flying hours and trainee throughput right up until F-35 introduction.
Magoo
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Australia operates 71x F/A-18A/B aircraft. The "57" number I referred to earlier is the number of "operational" airframes within the "operational" Squadrons, (3 Sqn, 75 Sqn and 77 Sqn) additional Hornets equip 2 OCU, ARDU and an "attrition" pool...
ALL RAAF Hornets are undergoing the Hornet upgrade project, and will have the same APG-73 radar and other capabilities of the HUG project. Not all are going through the centre barrel replacement program however.
knightrider4
Active Member
Super Hornet
There is an article in todays edition of the Australian. Evidently the purchase of 24 Super Hornets is a goer and will cost $3 Billion AUD to be in service from 2009-2010. Sorry I couldnt provide a link as I,m using a friends computer and I dont know how to cut and paste with an Apple.
There is an article in todays edition of the Australian. Evidently the purchase of 24 Super Hornets is a goer and will cost $3 Billion AUD to be in service from 2009-2010. Sorry I couldnt provide a link as I,m using a friends computer and I dont know how to cut and paste with an Apple.
Jezza
Member
$3bn on Super Hornet fighters
Dr Nelson has accelerated plans to buy the upgraded Hornets through a US Defence Department purchase from the US navy. His swift action came as a surprise to senior defence officials on Russell Hill.
The decision to buy an expensive interim fighter will generate a major rethink of the 2006-16 defence capability plan, with the prospect of a cut in the 100-strong Joint Strike Fighter fleet planned for the RAAF.
Senior defence sources said Dr Nelson wanted to run no risk of an air combat capability gap, with the F-111 strike force due to retire in 2010.
A key concern is that the Joint Strike Fighter, destined to become the RAAF's new frontline combat aircraft, may be subject to congressional budget cuts, leading to production delays.
On current plans, the first JSF squadron will enter operational service in Australia in 2014-15.
Acquiring a full squadron of Super Hornets from 2009-10 will enable the RAAF to retire its 22 operational F-111s in 2010 without the need for a further costly extension of their service life. It would also mean the air force could reduce to 42 the number of aircraft taking part in the full $1.5 billion Hornet upgrade program.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20955795-31477,00.html
- Patrick Walters, National security editor
- December 20, 2006
Dr Nelson has accelerated plans to buy the upgraded Hornets through a US Defence Department purchase from the US navy. His swift action came as a surprise to senior defence officials on Russell Hill.
The decision to buy an expensive interim fighter will generate a major rethink of the 2006-16 defence capability plan, with the prospect of a cut in the 100-strong Joint Strike Fighter fleet planned for the RAAF.
Senior defence sources said Dr Nelson wanted to run no risk of an air combat capability gap, with the F-111 strike force due to retire in 2010.
A key concern is that the Joint Strike Fighter, destined to become the RAAF's new frontline combat aircraft, may be subject to congressional budget cuts, leading to production delays.
On current plans, the first JSF squadron will enter operational service in Australia in 2014-15.
Acquiring a full squadron of Super Hornets from 2009-10 will enable the RAAF to retire its 22 operational F-111s in 2010 without the need for a further costly extension of their service life. It would also mean the air force could reduce to 42 the number of aircraft taking part in the full $1.5 billion Hornet upgrade program.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20955795-31477,00.html
From today's Australian Aviation Express
Issue 157
SUPER HORNETS FOR RAAF? The RAAF looks set to acquire 24 Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornets as a hedging strategy to offset any capability gaps between the retirement of the F-111C and the introduction of the F-35 JSF, and reduce risk associated with an early JSF acquisition.
Boeing has been quietly promoting the Super Hornet option to government for several years, with the previously unsolicited proposals believed to have led to two-way discussions earlier this year after Defence Minister Dr Brendan Nelson said he had asked the RAAF and DMO to look at options should the F-35 be delayed.
Boeing Integrated Defence Systems (IDS) head Jim Albaugh and Hornet sales head Rick McCrary were in Canberra in early December to meet with senior ADF and government ministers, reportedly including federal cabinet's National Security Committee (which includes the prime minister, treasurer and defence minister), to discuss the Super Hornet option. Reports indicate that Defence has provisionally agreed to take 24 F/A-18Fs as a bridging capability. This would allow the RAAF's F-111s to be retired in 2010, and mean the RAAF won't have to take as many of the early build low rate initial production (LRIP) F-35s, which will be more expensive and less capable than later production aircraft. The Super Hornet, with its AESA radar and limited stealth features, would also provide a neat generational transition aircraft between the fourth generation F/A-18A (HUG) and fifth generation F-35.
"The Minister has emphasised that Australia will not accept an air combat capability shortfall," the RAAF's Director General Capability Management, AIRCDRE Mark Binskin, told Australian Aviation in a statement. "Defence continues to develop contingency options to ensure Australia maintains its air combat capability edge during the transition to the New Air Combat Capability (NACC)."
"An option being analysed is to obtain 24 Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft to supplement our fleet of upgraded F/A-18s during the transition from F-111 to a fully operational F-35 JSF force," AIRCDRE Binskin added. "Selecting the F/A-18F Super Hornet would build on a very successful association with our current F/A-18 fleet. It would provide a highly capable combat aircraft that is currently in service with the US Navy."
The Super Hornet is currently being delivered to the US Navy under a multi-year fixed price production plan at a unit cost of US$54.8m (A$70m). Allowing for foreign military sales fees, weapons, electronic warfare equipment and other add-ons, support infrastructure and equipment, and initial spares, this would likely translate to a cost of about A$95-100 million per aircraft.
Other benefits of a Super Hornet buy would be the operation of a multiple type and therefore more diverse force structure, allowing greater flexibility in operational planning; the spreading out of the funding required to replace the 100-strong F/A-18A/B and F-111 force and their subsequent successors at the end of their lives; and the almost three decades of operational experience with the F/A-18 the RAAF has already achieved.
"Air Force has a deep understanding of F/A-18 systems and technical support, as well as strong relationships with suppliers," AIRCDRE Binskin said. "This makes the Super Hornet a low risk option to ensure Australia's capability edge is maintained at a time of major equipment renewal and change for Air Force. If obtained, the Super Hornet would provide Air Force with the flexibility to assign all Air Combat force aircrew and technical workforce across a relatively common fleet during the transition to the F-35 JSF."
The plan reportedly is to be approved in the 2007/08 federal budget, in which case the RAAF should be able to start taking delivery of Super Hornets by late 2009. Deliveries to the US Navy are currently running at more than a dozen aircraft and several months ahead of schedule, so Australia's airframes would likely be taken from USN allotments in an arrangement similar to that of the RAAF's first two C-17s being taken from USAF production slots.
Additionally, if a decision to acquire the Super Hornets is taken, the RAAF's five remaining F-111Gs which fly with 6SQN would likely be retired almost immediately, allowing 6SQN's F-111Cs to be transferred to 1SQN so as to free up personnel to train on and introduce the Super Hornet into service.
An Initial Operational Capability (IOC) with 12-14 Super Hornets could realistically be within reach by mid 2011, with Full Operational Capability (FOC) following by the end of 2012.
Boeing's bid to sell Australia the Super Hornet is part of a wider program internally dubbed 'Project Archangel' under which the aircraft was being pitched to various nations in our wider region including Japan, India and Malaysia, with the plan to offset a purchase with as much local industry involvement as possible. In Japan and India's cases, each of which has a 120+ aircraft requirement and a mature indigenous aircraft manufacturing capability, this could include final assembly and the manufacture of major components including engines, whereas for Malaysia there are more limited opportunities likely to be restricted to smaller high tech components.
In Australia's case, there may be opportunities for local Boeing subsidiary Hawker de Havilland to undertake additional honeycomb structure and assorted composite fabrication work for the Super Hornet.
Issue 157
SUPER HORNETS FOR RAAF? The RAAF looks set to acquire 24 Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornets as a hedging strategy to offset any capability gaps between the retirement of the F-111C and the introduction of the F-35 JSF, and reduce risk associated with an early JSF acquisition.
Boeing has been quietly promoting the Super Hornet option to government for several years, with the previously unsolicited proposals believed to have led to two-way discussions earlier this year after Defence Minister Dr Brendan Nelson said he had asked the RAAF and DMO to look at options should the F-35 be delayed.
Boeing Integrated Defence Systems (IDS) head Jim Albaugh and Hornet sales head Rick McCrary were in Canberra in early December to meet with senior ADF and government ministers, reportedly including federal cabinet's National Security Committee (which includes the prime minister, treasurer and defence minister), to discuss the Super Hornet option. Reports indicate that Defence has provisionally agreed to take 24 F/A-18Fs as a bridging capability. This would allow the RAAF's F-111s to be retired in 2010, and mean the RAAF won't have to take as many of the early build low rate initial production (LRIP) F-35s, which will be more expensive and less capable than later production aircraft. The Super Hornet, with its AESA radar and limited stealth features, would also provide a neat generational transition aircraft between the fourth generation F/A-18A (HUG) and fifth generation F-35.
"The Minister has emphasised that Australia will not accept an air combat capability shortfall," the RAAF's Director General Capability Management, AIRCDRE Mark Binskin, told Australian Aviation in a statement. "Defence continues to develop contingency options to ensure Australia maintains its air combat capability edge during the transition to the New Air Combat Capability (NACC)."
"An option being analysed is to obtain 24 Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft to supplement our fleet of upgraded F/A-18s during the transition from F-111 to a fully operational F-35 JSF force," AIRCDRE Binskin added. "Selecting the F/A-18F Super Hornet would build on a very successful association with our current F/A-18 fleet. It would provide a highly capable combat aircraft that is currently in service with the US Navy."
The Super Hornet is currently being delivered to the US Navy under a multi-year fixed price production plan at a unit cost of US$54.8m (A$70m). Allowing for foreign military sales fees, weapons, electronic warfare equipment and other add-ons, support infrastructure and equipment, and initial spares, this would likely translate to a cost of about A$95-100 million per aircraft.
Other benefits of a Super Hornet buy would be the operation of a multiple type and therefore more diverse force structure, allowing greater flexibility in operational planning; the spreading out of the funding required to replace the 100-strong F/A-18A/B and F-111 force and their subsequent successors at the end of their lives; and the almost three decades of operational experience with the F/A-18 the RAAF has already achieved.
"Air Force has a deep understanding of F/A-18 systems and technical support, as well as strong relationships with suppliers," AIRCDRE Binskin said. "This makes the Super Hornet a low risk option to ensure Australia's capability edge is maintained at a time of major equipment renewal and change for Air Force. If obtained, the Super Hornet would provide Air Force with the flexibility to assign all Air Combat force aircrew and technical workforce across a relatively common fleet during the transition to the F-35 JSF."
The plan reportedly is to be approved in the 2007/08 federal budget, in which case the RAAF should be able to start taking delivery of Super Hornets by late 2009. Deliveries to the US Navy are currently running at more than a dozen aircraft and several months ahead of schedule, so Australia's airframes would likely be taken from USN allotments in an arrangement similar to that of the RAAF's first two C-17s being taken from USAF production slots.
Additionally, if a decision to acquire the Super Hornets is taken, the RAAF's five remaining F-111Gs which fly with 6SQN would likely be retired almost immediately, allowing 6SQN's F-111Cs to be transferred to 1SQN so as to free up personnel to train on and introduce the Super Hornet into service.
An Initial Operational Capability (IOC) with 12-14 Super Hornets could realistically be within reach by mid 2011, with Full Operational Capability (FOC) following by the end of 2012.
Boeing's bid to sell Australia the Super Hornet is part of a wider program internally dubbed 'Project Archangel' under which the aircraft was being pitched to various nations in our wider region including Japan, India and Malaysia, with the plan to offset a purchase with as much local industry involvement as possible. In Japan and India's cases, each of which has a 120+ aircraft requirement and a mature indigenous aircraft manufacturing capability, this could include final assembly and the manufacture of major components including engines, whereas for Malaysia there are more limited opportunities likely to be restricted to smaller high tech components.
In Australia's case, there may be opportunities for local Boeing subsidiary Hawker de Havilland to undertake additional honeycomb structure and assorted composite fabrication work for the Super Hornet.
weasel1962
New Member
Re:
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Not just cost more but be less capable Block 2 jets. Because we're a program partner, I don't think we have to 'negotiate' the prices fo the aircraft - we just pretty much pay what everyone else is paying for the aircraft at that point of the production line.
The USN will still have hundreds of Supers in service in 20 years, and because of the relationship built up with them and Boeing over the past 25 years with the 'classic' Hornets, support will not be an issue.weasel said:
Magoo
Deja Vu, we travelled this same road with the F-111 as it was an orphan. There's yet to be any clear indication that Rhino is/will be an orphan. Even if it is, then the baseline numbers would indicate no shortage of spare parts/frames over the next 20 years. (Failing open conflict etc....)
Excellent news.
Now we will get a taste of the Super Hornet.
Everyone seems to be sitting on the fence with the JSF program. The price originally was based on 3000+ aircraft being built, the price will sky rocket when they cant even get 2000 firm orders.
When Australia firsts see's the price of the JSF if its price is 50% greater than a Super Hornet which is higgly likely, then it is also highly likely that we may just buy more Super Hornets.
We have already taken a step in the Super Hornet direction.
In my opinion i dont think Australia will even buy JSF aircraft. In 2015 the US Navy will have a UAV aircraft in the pipeline which could most likely be controlled by the two seat Super Hornet. This will seal the deal and Australia will buy more Super Hornets with the likely purchase of a UCAV soon after.
We just hit the first nail into the JSF coffin.
:australia
Now we will get a taste of the Super Hornet.
Everyone seems to be sitting on the fence with the JSF program. The price originally was based on 3000+ aircraft being built, the price will sky rocket when they cant even get 2000 firm orders.
When Australia firsts see's the price of the JSF if its price is 50% greater than a Super Hornet which is higgly likely, then it is also highly likely that we may just buy more Super Hornets.
We have already taken a step in the Super Hornet direction.
In my opinion i dont think Australia will even buy JSF aircraft. In 2015 the US Navy will have a UAV aircraft in the pipeline which could most likely be controlled by the two seat Super Hornet. This will seal the deal and Australia will buy more Super Hornets with the likely purchase of a UCAV soon after.
We just hit the first nail into the JSF coffin.
:australia