EA/18G Growler

rossfrb_1

Member
Magoo said:
Yeah, true, but just from my discussions with people in the know, a lease wouldn't be considered. The next combat aircraft we get we're going to buy and keep for a long time. Boeing offered a lease as a last ditch measure to get us into the Super, but their and our preference was always for a sale. They're now pushing the Super as part of a two-tiered capability and more importantly perhaps, as a staggered buy so you're not spending all $15.5 billion in one whack!

Cheers

Magoo
Presumably one of the options that DefMin Nelson will be presented with.
If you were (are?) a betting man, what odds would you put on a RAAF super hornet acquisition?
I found this in the Oz
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20286445-31477,00.html
and it basically says that delivery of the first wedgetails will be delayed a little.
I only mention this since (esp if the delay lengthens even further) it may increase the pressure on an interim purchase of something other than the JSF. (Whose delivery time also appears to be slipping.)
The wedgetails were supposed to be part of the force multiplier mix that would help cover the F-111 retirement. A super hornet with some form of inherent EA (along with its existing AESA and EW capabilities) may seem attractive. Especially if you throw in a few G models.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Magoo said:
Yeah, true, but just from my discussions with people in the know, a lease wouldn't be considered. The next combat aircraft we get we're going to buy and keep for a long time. Boeing offered a lease as a last ditch measure to get us into the Super, but their and our preference was always for a sale. They're now pushing the Super as part of a two-tiered capability and more importantly perhaps, as a staggered buy so you're not spending all $15.5 billion in one whack!

Cheers

Magoo
But the F-35 purchase was never going to be in one whack anyway. There's 2 phased buys planned already with the 3rd phase looking at perhaps more JSF's, but perhaps "other" capabilities such as UCAV's if they're "mature"
enough (ie: in-service and proven elsewhere)...


My bet is the first 2 (if they go ahead as planned) will replace the F-111 and half the Hornet fleet, with the remainder of the Hornets to be replaced by more JSF's or the "other" option...
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
rossfrb_1 said:
Presumably one of the options that DefMin Nelson will be presented with.
If you were (are?) a betting man, what odds would you put on a RAAF super hornet acquisition?
I'd have a pretty decent wager on it if JSF gets pushed back past 2014. We should know more by this time next year, plenty of time to get some Supers in before the Pigs are parked.:cool:

rossfrb_1 said:
I found this in the Oz
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20286445-31477,00.html
and it basically says that delivery of the first wedgetails will be delayed a little.
I only mention this since (esp if the delay lengthens even further) it may increase the pressure on an interim purchase of something other than the JSF. (Whose delivery time also appears to be slipping.)
The wedgetails were supposed to be part of the force multiplier mix that would help cover the F-111 retirement. A super hornet with some form of inherent EA (along with its existing AESA and EW capabilities) may seem attractive. Especially if you throw in a few G models.
This is old news re Wedgetail - Boeing was openly talking about the end of 2008 a couple of months ago, so if it's come forward to August, then they may be getting things back on track. Wasn't The Australian talking about F-16s as an option if JSF is delayed a week or so ago??? Hmmmm :rolleyes:

Don't get caught in the trap of comparing the mission flown by Wedgetail with that of the Growler. Wedgetail is an early warning and battlespace control aircraft which operates well back behind the first, second and thrid lines of defences. Growler is an electronic attack platform which will go 'downtown' with the strike packages and either burn out or destroy enemy radars with bombs and missiles.

All Super Hornets will soon have some kind of organic electronic attack capability - certainly by the time we got them if we went down that road. So will the JSF, so the Growler may not be necessary.

Aussie Digger said:
But the F-35 purchase was never going to be in one whack anyway. There's 2 phased buys planned already with the 3rd phase looking at perhaps more JSF's, but perhaps "other" capabilities such as UCAV's if they're "mature"
enough (ie: in-service and proven elsewhere)...

My bet is the first 2 (if they go ahead as planned) will replace the F-111 and half the Hornet fleet, with the remainder of the Hornets to be replaced by more JSF's or the "other" option...
Phases 1 and 2 of AIR 6000 were combined in the last DCP to run concurrently, and there is a push within Defence to bring Phase 3 forward as well, so I don't think the "other" capabilities will come to fruition this time round.

Don't forget, HUGged Hornets + JASSM + JDAM + MRTT + Wedgetail will replace F-111, and then, all going well, the F-35A will replace the Hornets. It's the "going well" bit that worries me. I know it's semantics, but it's an important distinction to draw as it shows what frame of mind the pollies and senior defence people are in.

AD - EMAIL INCOMING!

Magoo
 
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rossfrb_1

Member
Magoo said:
{snip}

Don't get caught in the trap of comparing the mission flown by Wedgetail with that of the Growler. Wedgetail is an early warning and battlespace control aircraft which operates well back behind the first, second and thrid lines of defences. Growler is an electronic attack platform which will go 'downtown' with the strike packages and either burn out or destroy enemy radars with bombs and missiles.
{snip}
What I was trying to say was that if the wedgetail project slips too much, then its force multiplier ability will be lost to the HUG hornets (which I believe have relatively modest EW and no EA) for that length of time. Thus a super hornet buy would be attractive to the RAAF (assuming deliveries could happen sooner rather than later) because an apg-79 fitted SH might not be as vulnerable as an apg-73 HUGbug where there is limited or non-existent awacs cover.
I was not suggesting that super hornets, or specifically the G version could be used as an awacs platform.
i missed the oz article re f-16s.

rb
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
rossfrb_1 said:
What I was trying to say was that if the wedgetail project slips too much, then its force multiplier ability will be lost to the HUG hornets (which I believe have relatively modest EW and no EA) for that length of time. Thus a super hornet buy would be attractive to the RAAF (assuming deliveries could happen sooner rather than later) because an apg-79 fitted SH might not be as vulnerable as an apg-73 HUGbug where there is limited or non-existent awacs cover.I was not suggesting that super hornets, or specifically the G version could be used as an awacs platform.
Ok, gotcha, sorry for the confusion.

If Wedgetail (or tankers, or JDAM/JASSM for that matter) slips beyond late 2008, then the F-111Cs will likely be extended from 2010 to 2012. They need two years notice to wind down or retain the Pigs.

And you're right, the HUGGED Hornet doesn't have an EA capability, however its EW suite will at last be coming up for some attention in the next few months. Also very true re APG-79/-73 comparo. The Super's -79 is up for a software upgrade which will allow it to link in with its ALR-67(v)3 to direct it against radar emitters. APG-73 has no, and wont have any such capability.

As for deliveries, the usual term is about 36 months from contract signature to first delivery, so if we were to sign for the jets late next year, we may be able have a squadron in service by mid 2011. Alternatively, a government to government request for a rapid acquisition (a la C-17) may reduce that by as much as 12-18 months by taking jets from the US Navy's production allocation (which, interestingly, is eight jets ahead of schedule).

rossfrb_1 said:
i missed the oz article re f-16s.
This may sound very unprofessional of me, but you didn't miss much! :rolleyes:

Cheers

Magoo
 

Jezza

Member
FA/18F's for AUSTRALIA???

Anyone seen these

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20845262-953,00.html
Secret plan to lease planes

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20845833-2,00.html

Air combat void to cost millions


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20932315-1702,00.html
on error resume next if (plugin http://mercury.tiser.com.au/accipiter/adclick/CID=00003aee1fd38e6800000000/acc_random=32710363/SITE=TAUS/AREA=NEWS.BREAKINGNEWS/AAMSZ=120X90/POS=2/pageid=2469556 December 15, 2006


LABOR has labelled Australia's defence acquisition program a mess, as the Government considers spending $2 billion on aircraft as a stop-gap measure while it waits for the new, high-tech joint strike fighter (JSF).


Australia may buy a squadron of 24 F-18F Super Hornet fighter jets as back-up amid growing concerns over delays in the delivery of the JSF.
Fairfax newspapers reported that Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had confirmed that the Government was in discussions with the US government for the purchase of the Super Hornets.
The aircraft are likely to cost about $90 million each.
The move is an apparent about-face for the government, which has repeatedly said there would be no need for a stop-gap to fill the hole between the phase-out of the RAAF's fleet of aging F/A-18 Hornets and F-111s and the introduction of the JSF.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Anyone seen these

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20845262-953,00.html
Secret plan to lease planes

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20845833-2,00.html

Air combat void to cost millions


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20932315-1702,00.html
on error resume next if (plugin December 15, 2006


LABOR has labelled Australia's defence acquisition program a mess, as the Government considers spending $2 billion on aircraft as a stop-gap measure while it waits for the new, high-tech joint strike fighter (JSF).


Australia may buy a squadron of 24 F-18F Super Hornet fighter jets as back-up amid growing concerns over delays in the delivery of the JSF.
Fairfax newspapers reported that Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had confirmed that the Government was in discussions with the US government for the purchase of the Super Hornets.
The aircraft are likely to cost about $90 million each.
The move is an apparent about-face for the government, which has repeatedly said there would be no need for a stop-gap to fill the hole between the phase-out of the RAAF's fleet of aging F/A-18 Hornets and F-111s and the introduction of the JSF.
There has always been a Plan B Interim solution. Boeing made approaches for being part of that interim solution some 8-9 months ago, so it hasn't been unexpected.

Magoo can provide more details if/when approp.
 

Jezza

Member
Australia should buy a mix of F and G models at least they could be used
as jammers and refuel F 35's when they come.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Anyone seen these

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20845262-953,00.html
Secret plan to lease planes

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20845833-2,00.html

Air combat void to cost millions


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20932315-1702,00.html
on error resume next if (plugin December 15, 2006


LABOR has labelled Australia's defence acquisition program a mess, as the Government considers spending $2 billion on aircraft as a stop-gap measure while it waits for the new, high-tech joint strike fighter (JSF).


Australia may buy a squadron of 24 F-18F Super Hornet fighter jets as back-up amid growing concerns over delays in the delivery of the JSF.
Fairfax newspapers reported that Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had confirmed that the Government was in discussions with the US government for the purchase of the Super Hornets.

The aircraft are likely to cost about $90 million each.
The move is an apparent about-face for the government, which has repeatedly said there would be no need for a stop-gap to fill the hole between the phase-out of the RAAF's fleet of aging F/A-18 Hornets and F-111s and the introduction of the JSF.
Ian Mcphedran is almost as "up to date" as Geoffrey Barker. He wrote, "The planes will not even be ordered until late next year - if the Howard Government proceeds to contract. The JSF, which individually costs more than $100 million, is not due to make its maiden flight from Lockheed Martin's Texas plant until late next year".

It is such a pity that THIS is what stands for Defence Journalism in this Country.

The plus side to this (apart from the boost in capability) is that Boeing is reportedly well ahead of schedule in the SH production line ad the USN is apparently willing to forgoe airframes now for RAAF to take early possession of and generate and early in-service date.

Reports a few months ago, indicated SH's could be in-service with RAAF by 2008....

I wonder if they'll operate out of Amberley?

Magoo???
 

Mick73

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I would think they would lease them as they did with the 24 x F-4E's back before the F-111C's were online.
Or maybe a lease to buy arrangment. If they did want to keep them I believe the G model would be kept and the remainder sent back (nice to have an EW fast jet in the RAAF). The two seat F and G (is it?) for No1 and No 6 Sqn's and the F-35's for the other 3 Sqns and OCU. Am I right in saying we operate a 16 aircraft Hornet Sqn??
So a possible spead of:
64 F-35A's for 3,75,77 Sqn's and OCU.
24 F/A-18F/G's for 1 and 6 Sqn's
with 36 airframes for ADFRU (say 4-6) or and extra Sqn.
Which could leave us 12-14 airframes for our LPH's. Which by rights could be operated by the RAAF and be embarked when needed.

Hmmm...food for thought??
 

contedicavour

New Member
I'd just say that the F35s aren't becoming operational before 2014... and that by then the F111s will be obsolete and the F18s will be really old...

Don't get trapped like we did in Italy, waiting for a decade for the "holy grail" Typhoon and desperately modernizing old birds such as the F104S/ASA before at the end realizing that stopgap measures -Tornado ADV and F16ADF- were vital to maintain air defence...

cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I'd just say that the F35s aren't becoming operational before 2014... and that by then the F111s will be obsolete and the F18s will be really old...

Don't get trapped like we did in Italy, waiting for a decade for the "holy grail" Typhoon and desperately modernizing old birds such as the F104S/ASA before at the end realizing that stopgap measures -Tornado ADV and F16ADF- were vital to maintain air defence...

cheers
I agree and we have a precedent for this in Australia. We leased 24cx F-4E Phantoms from the USAF, prior to the introduction of the F-111...

"Everything old IS new again"...

The Super Hornet, plus the HUG Hornet fleet, plus the A330's, Wedgetails and all our new weapons, targetting pods etc, will allow RAAF to maintain a truly capable and potent force until our plans WRT to the F-35 are sorted...
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Australia should buy a mix of F and G models at least they could be used
as jammers and refuel F 35's when they come.
The procurement of 24 FA18Fs or a mix of Fs and Gs would certainly prevent a serious decline in the number of combat aircraft available to Australia between the retirement of the F111Cs and the arrival of the F35. Whilst upgrades to the FA18As will better equip them to take over the strike role from the F111C the fact is that there will less aircraft to carry out all the roles presently filled by the combined force of F111Cs and Hornets, unless an interim aircraft is acquired. Another advantage of getting a squadron of SHs is that it would take pressure off the need to acquire early model F35s and allow Australia to enter the program when some of the inevitable bugs have been ironed out.

I also agree with Jezza that including some FA18Gs with the Fs would provide a force that could provide valuable tanker and electronic warfare support to the F35s after they come into service. Thus they would become a permanent addition rather than an interim force (though maybe at the cost of fewer F35s being acquired).

:)
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Firstly, may I suggest that we leave any debate as to the merits of such an acquisition to the myriad of other threads currently underway, and leave this thread as just an information thread?

OK, here's the way it is from my understanding, although Occum and his contacts may have more inside information.

Boeing has been subtly pushing the Super Hornet option to Government for several years, although the previously unsolicted proposals turned 'solicited' earlier this year after Nelson said he had asked RAAF/DMO to look at options should the F-35 be delayed. The RAAF has always said the Super Hornet would be the 'Plan B' option for AIR 6000.

About two months ago I began to get wind of more serious discussions being underway with Boeing. One of their unsolicted proposals was a program internally dubbed 'Archangel' (thanks to Occum for filling in the last pieces of the puzzle on that) under which they were pitching Super Hornets to various nations in our region (Japan, India, Malaysia and Australia) with the plan to offset a purchase with as much local industry involvement as possible.

In Japan and India's case (120+ aircraft requirement each), this would likely include local final assembly of the aircraft and the manufacture of various components, engines etc; for Malaysia it may include the manufacture of some smaller high tech components; and for Australia, perhaps some more manufacturing involvement for Hawker de Havilland in the form of additional Super Hornet bits (HdH already does gear doors, trailing edge control surfaces for ALL Supers) and perhaps 777, 787, 747I and other opportunities from within the Boeing stable of airplanes.

In early December, Boeing IDS head Jim Albaugh and his Hornet sales head Rick McCrary were in Canberra and met with senior ADF and Govt officials, including the full National Security Commitee, to discuss the Super option, and it was basicaly agreed that the RAAF would take 24 F/A-18Fs as a "bridging" (NOT "interim") capability so the F-111s can be retired in 2010, and so we don't have to take as many LRIP F-35s as early as we thought we might have to. The first 'hint' (to me anyway) that something was going to happen was when Nelson dropped the HUG 2.3 ALR-2002 RWR in favour of the ALR-67, a system which is common to USN Supers.

The information in Thursday's Fin Review is basically correct, as it was leaked to them by the Minister's Office directly!

So, it looks like a goer, with the 'ONLY' details still to be worked out being the delivery schedule, the cost, the method of purchase, and the local industry opportunities... so it's fair to say there's still a bit of water to pass under the bridge yet.

It is unlikely such an arrangement would be a lease, as there are restrictions on how the aircraft can be operated (hours/month, G-limits etc), and you have nothing to show for it at the end of the lease term. However, an outright purchase, although 'lumpy' up front, gives the RAAF much more flexibility in the use of the aircraft, especially as a second tier to a fifth gen platform later on, and the option to keep them longer term (something alot of people wish we had done with the Phantoms 33 years ago!).

The delivery schedule is an interesting one - the USN currently gets its jets at a set unit rate of US$54.8m each as part of a four-year buy, however Boeing is currently more than a dozen jets and several months ahead of schedule, so there is flexibility in the line for USN jets to be taken out for the RAAF as long as they agree, similar to the arrangement with the USAF for our first two C-17s.

In a best case scenario, we could have 6-8 jets sitting on the ramp at Amberley 24 to 30 months after contract signature, so if something is signed in mid 07, we could have the makings of a capability by early 2010, in time for the F-111Cs to be retired on the current schedule of June 30, 2010. The F-111Gs would likely be canned as soon as practicable after a decision is made, and all the F-111Cs tranferred to 1 SQN, so 6 SQN can start the transition process.

Going on the above timetable scenario, an IOC and established training stream with 12-14 jets could be achieved by mid 2011, and FOC by mid to late 2012. Amberley is the most likely destination for the jets, although it may end up being Williamtown if the RAAF sticks with the current plan for 6 and then 1 SQNs to go over to the JSF first.

Hope this answers some. Opinions aside, anything you can add Occum?

For those with access, the Australian Defence Business Review which comes out in the next week or so has some good coverage of this issue.

Cheers

Magoo
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
and for Australia, perhaps some more manufacturing involvement for Hawker de Havilland in the form of additional Super Hornet bits (HdH already does gear doors, trailing edge control surfaces for ALL Supers) and perhaps 777, 787, 747I and other opportunities from within the Boeing stable of airplanes.
I was under the impression that honeycomb panelling for wings and tail surfaces was on the cards. (??)

interestingly enough, part of the initial Rafael "seduction offer" also included honeycomb and compound work for HdH

HdH do a fair bit of civil sub contracting for Boeing and Airbus already
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just for my clarification, I assume these aircraft should be veiwed as F-111C replacements not F-18A/B so there will be no real drop in numbers?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just for my clarification, I assume these aircraft should be veiwed as F-111C replacements not F-18A/B so there will be no real drop in numbers?
From magoos traffic they appear to be sep and thus supplemental.

If thats the case, then I'm happy as I've never been a fan of a single platform solution irrespective of what we get.

risk mitigation and all that... it appears (??) that these may well end up being a straight buy up if they can't be leased. Unless we have an option to "sell" back after 4-6 years?

if we're getting "broken" (as in a USN break in) production line Shornets, then that would seem to be an opportunity for India to fast track an iterative purchase if they select Shornets as well.

ie,
  • Boeing sell a USN committment to Oz
  • India gets a staggered sell of Shornets
  • Oz sells back to Boeing and State Dept release incoming tranche to India thus accelerating their overall delivery cycle.

As an interesting twist of variables, Australias opportunity also becomes Indias opportunity to accellerate their own cycle. Because we are Tier1 we get first bite, but that bite doesn't effect their decision, but actually fast tracks their end delivery cycle.
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
From magoos traffic they appear to be sep and thus supplemental.

If thats the case, then I'm happy as I've never been a fan of a single platform solution irrespective of what we get.

risk mitigation and all that... it appears (??) that these may well end up being a straight buy up if they can't be leased. Unless we have an option to "sell" back after 4-6 years?

if we're getting "broken" (as in a USN break in) production line Shornets, then that would seem to be an opportunity for India to fast track an iterative purchase if they select Shornets as well.

ie,
  • Boeing sell a USN committment to Oz
  • India gets a staggered sell of Shornets
  • Oz sells back to Boeing and State Dept release incoming tranche to India thus accelerating their overall delivery cycle.

As an interesting twist of variables, Australias opportunity also becomes Indias opportunity to accellerate their own cycle. Because we are Tier1 we get first bite, but that bite doesn't effect their decision, but actually fast tracks their end delivery cycle.

Personally, I don't see the advantages of the Super Hornet? Really, F-15E Strike Eagle offers way more capabilities.........and could be leased and easily sold secondhand to many current users in the region. :D
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Personally, I don't see the advantages of the Super Hornet? Really, F-15E Strike Eagle offers way more capabilities.........and could be leased and easily sold secondhand to many current users in the region. :D
How about a whole generation of technolgy for one, AESA for two, reduced RCS for three, tighter turning radius for four, better dog fighter for five...
 
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