Do Empires fall only due to stupidity??

idiana

New Member
the Holy Empire like Third Reich fell just because of the stupid territorial ambition of Hitler. The American had received experiences from that Downfall, and now they attempt just to dominate theri state vassal by pro-American government they set up, not as territorial occupants. It´s what happened in Iraq, Geogia, and soon in Afghanistan.

Occupying cost so much blood.
 

TheWay

New Member
"Leadership is a matter of intelligence, trustworthiness, humaneness, courage, and sternness." Sun Tzu

The reason as to why empires fall is because of imbalance of these 5 virtues, failure to adapt, and mismanagement. All 3 of these can result in failure politically and militarily. When it comes to imbalance, either of the 5 virtues can become a weakness. If you rely upon courage it will eventually lead to an overabundance of violence. EX: Hitlers campaign was tactically sound but strategically he could not hold the territory he fought to claim (Lack of resources). It was not in stupidity which Hitler failed, it was in his arrogance from his prior victories. When you fail to adapt to your surroundings and the technology of the time, strategy, and political influences you are bound to be taken by an outside force or from within. EX: Modern day Egypt.

Last but certainly not least is mismanagement. This can range from corruption, failure in economics, to even placing people in positions of power who are undeserving (Also tied into corruption). All great empires have a golden age in which they are revered in their own way, whether it be in territory, leadership, victories, political views. The downfall of them usually begins with a change in leadership. A great leader can teach his successor by precedent but it does not mean he will abide by it. Overall there is no success rate to government. Looking at all great nations of the past they have all fallen in time. The difference between the great nations and unmentionables is the time in which they prolonged the inevitable, and the influence they had on people to come. Overall I do not believe empires or nations fall out of stupidity, they fall because other, more complex factors.
 

CBS

New Member
Wasn't entirely sure as to where i should place this post but this will have to do. I was thinking earlier that quite a number of empires have died out, fizzled up or gone under with a major contributing factor being simple stupidity. I thought about the Axis picking too many fights, about the British inciting the American Indians (which lead to Pontiac, which i believe was a major kick for Independence in the colonies). The USSR ignoring the fact that the occupation of Afghanistan coupled with insane military spending was probably going to be bad in the long run. Plus the added bonus of Stalin-ism. Now that i think of it WW1 was partly due to Germany's lovely little no-questions-asked military alliance, which was put in place solely so that Germany could show off its lovely military muscles.
So, i would be interested to know if I've been led completely astray. What other examples are there of this happening(if any)? Do all good things in history come to an end due to stupidity? After all I'd suggest that total British Naval Supremacy was lost due to stupidity...

TheBlurryOne
Try GREED, Integrity and no respect for GOD !

SF....>Chuck
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Try GREED, Integrity and no respect for GOD !

SF....>Chuck
God has nothing to do with this forum, so please stay away from such issues. This is nothing against what you believe, but we ask the same of all members. I'm sure you can understand such discussions can quickly get out of control and often turn military conversations into religious and spiritual ones, which is not the purpose of the forum. Thanks mate.
 

CBS

New Member
God has nothing to do with this forum, so please stay away from such issues. This is nothing against what you believe, but we ask the same of all members. I'm sure you can understand such discussions can quickly get out of control and often turn military conversations into religious and spiritual ones, which is not the purpose of the forum. Thanks mate.
Fair enough. Let's try humanity then !

Chuck
 

Avid

New Member
Good thread. Although I find it hard-pressed to consider the US an empire. The China analogy works better for me. The number one cause is corruption and our politicians not relating to an average citizen. Kind of like now.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Good thread. Although I find it hard-pressed to consider the US an empire. The China analogy works better for me. The number one cause is corruption and our politicians not relating to an average citizen. Kind of like now.
Did US action influences many other countries/nations actions ? Did US actions can determine some nations future (economics or politics) ? and so on. Many examples can be said that show the US behaving as Empire.

That's why in my post, I asked 'what's an empire'. Off course no country come to US Emperor (well there's no emperor) and bring 'bounty' from their land as contribution to the empire, in return they got benefit from the Emperor through the influence of the Empire.. However the US economic system create international system that can bring the bounty from other country to US and in return US can bring the influences of economics, politics and security to benefit other land (albeit to US need).

Well you can call it many things..but in my book, that's what an Empire act. Time will modifies how they act, but basic relationship it's still the same. One or few powerfull nations acted to influences other nation through their power for primary their own benefit (which in turn can benefit other nations that influenced by them as how they see it fit)...How to do that depends on the basic 'idea' that bond their relationship. And those 'idea' ussually come from dominant 'alpha' nation. That 'alpha' nations again is acted as Empire.
 

MyopicMuppet

New Member
There are a number of different reasons why empires collapse, of which many people have touched on already, stagnation, poor social/economic policy, death of a leader, catastrophic military defeat or asymmetrical conflict.

Rome first broke up because it was discovered that it was too difficult for one single emperor to rule the whole of the empire, at one point they had four emperors until it was finally split into the Western Roman empire and the Eastern Roman Empire (later renamed as the Byzantine empire). The Western Roman Empire fell in part due to the barbarian invasions, but more significantly due to a change in policy whereby the provinces were able to provide payment instead of troops to the centralized government. This led to the hiring of various barbarian tribes to form the backbone of the military. The downside of this being that tribes often decided that they liked the Roman lands and would stay. When the mass migrations started there were simply not enough troops to either hold them back, or police them, so waves of different peoples came through pillaging the lands as the went.

The Eastern Roman Empire managed to hold on until the 16th century but was eventually worn down by the Turks

The Athenian empire over extended herself into Persia and then got into an idealogical fight in the Peloponesian war Democracy vs Oligarchy, eventually losing and being forced to give up all of her gains by the victors.

The British Empire went through a massive expansion after 1870, prior to this Britain had concentrated on strategically important colonies such as South Africa, India, Canada and Australia. Most of the gains after 1870 were more about the prestige of having the biggest slice of the globe rather than being of much value. WWI was a Pyhrric victory and WW2 dashed any chance of Britain staging a recovery.

Empires such as the Chinese and the Ottomans fell apart due to being too far behind other powers that they came into increasing contact with.
 

Blitz Bar

New Member
Good thread. Although I find it hard-pressed to consider the US an empire. The China analogy works better for me. The number one cause is corruption and our politicians not relating to an average citizen. Kind of like now.
how do you not consider the U.S. an empire? we have military bases all over the world and when was the last time you could walk into a city anywhere in the WORLD and not see a Mcdonalds. Our S.P.E.C (social political economic and cultural) influence is everywhere. I would say we deffinently constitute as an empire.
 

rip

New Member
The British Empire's expansion was driven by trade protected by the RN, the biggest spike being immediately after the Napoleonic War. It was never one of pure military dominance or expansion.

The pride of Empire, the Raj was run as a private enterprise by the British East India Company until the mutiny of 1857 (regular army took over), basically they were the original PMC (forerunners of Blackwater / Armor Group).

The Industrial Revolution drove the expansion, UK mills needed overseas raw materials hence entrepreneurs struck out to establish trading posts, which when threatened were protected by gunboat diplomacy and eventual forced seizure (Hong Kong post Opium War)

The British Empire didn't collapse overnight it retreated and became the Commonwealth. The UK was bankrupt post WWII and the colonies demanded self determination.

Reference America's Empire, the countries decline will be marked by an ideological change elsewhere. The concept of western democracy being superior may be usurped by the idea of benevolent autocracies. The Chinese model of tightly controlled government, which allows limited freedom under a micro-managed system may end up be the favoured approach by those nations looking for a rapid economic expansion, which both satisfies the masses and allows for stable growth. The relative decline of the west and the growing economic success of the east may sour the American dream, nations may start lookong for other models of governance and cultural influence.
Riksavage; said in #post21843

“Reference America's Empire, the countries decline will be marked by an ideological change elsewhere. The concept of western democracy being superior may be usurped by the idea of benevolent autocracies. The Chinese model of tightly controlled government, which allows limited freedom under a micro-managed system, may end up be the favored approach by those nations looking for a rapid economic expansion, which both satisfies the masses and allows for stable growth. The relative decline of the west and the growing economic success of the east may sour the American dream; nations may start looking for other models of governance and cultural influence.”

I am sorry to say this is another example of obsolete thinking.

As societies become more complex, that is to say more modern, decisions coming from the top, generally meant to insure uniformity and to promote order become increasing less efficient and even relevant, regardless of the sphere of human activity we are talking about. Further growth and prosperity requires more specialization and customization to local unique specific conditions to enhance effectiveness and increases efficiency in meeting human needs. Hierarchal top down Micro-management styles do not work very well when compared to decision making systems that have decentralized authority structures.

Think of it this way, regardless of how smart, educated or even nobly motivated the leadership could ever be within any organization of any significant size it could ever be very effechent, let us call this quality to innovate and adapt it’s intelligence capacity. In a top down system all the creativity, flexibility, and vision resides only at the top. The rest of the system exists only to execute the tops orders. All of the creativity, flexibility, and vision of all the rest of the people is not only wasted in this system but is highly discouraged as being disruptive to the system. It is easy to see that the distributed system is in fact much smarter, its inteligence capasity is greater, because it better utilized the captured human potential of its component parts.

While working in only the catch up mode, copying the proven successes of other societies’ accomplishments the top down approach may seem to bring great benefit at first. But when the path to further improvement is not already known and becomes uncertain it becomes a major disadvantage. There is no such thing as a benevolent autocracy. ever. Autocracies are only obsessed with maintaining control and progress threatens that control.
 

MyopicMuppet

New Member
Riksavage; said in #post21843

“Reference America's Empire, the countries decline will be marked by an ideological change elsewhere. The concept of western democracy being superior may be usurped by the idea of benevolent autocracies. The Chinese model of tightly controlled government, which allows limited freedom under a micro-managed system, may end up be the favored approach by those nations looking for a rapid economic expansion, which both satisfies the masses and allows for stable growth. The relative decline of the west and the growing economic success of the east may sour the American dream; nations may start looking for other models of governance and cultural influence.”

I am sorry to say this is another example of obsolete thinking.

As societies become more complex, that is to say more modern, decisions coming from the top, generally meant to insure uniformity and to promote order become increasing less efficient and even relevant, regardless of the sphere of human activity we are talking about. Further growth and prosperity requires more specialization and customization to local unique specific conditions to enhance effectiveness and increases efficiency in meeting human needs. Hierarchal top down Micro-management styles do not work very well when compared to decision making systems that have decentralized authority structures.

Think of it this way, regardless of how smart, educated or even nobly motivated the leadership could ever be within any organization of any significant size it could ever be very effechent, let us call this quality to innovate and adapt it’s intelligence capacity. In a top down system all the creativity, flexibility, and vision resides only at the top. The rest of the system exists only to execute the tops orders. All of the creativity, flexibility, and vision of all the rest of the people is not only wasted in this system but is highly discouraged as being disruptive to the system. It is easy to see that the distributed system is in fact much smarter, its inteligence capasity is greater, because it better utilized the captured human potential of its component parts.

While working in only the catch up mode, copying the proven successes of other societies’ accomplishments the top down approach may seem to bring great benefit at first. But when the path to further improvement is not already known and becomes uncertain it becomes a major disadvantage. There is no such thing as a benevolent autocracy. ever. Autocracies are only obsessed with maintaining control and progress threatens that control.
This sounds like complex systems theory vs ecological systems theory. The one that has been around for a while is ecological systems theory which is what Riksavage is basing his argument on says that systems, in this case empires, change in a linear way based on action and reaction therefore leading to the statement "the countries decline will be marked by an ideological change elsewhere".

Complex systems theory is concerned with relationships between parts that give rise to the collective behaviors of a system and how the system interacts and forms relationships with its environment that leads to the statement "regardless of how smart, educated or even nobly motivated the leadership could ever be within any organization of any significant size it could never be very efficient."

Complex systems theory recognizes complex relationships between complex environments. In this sense the United States would not 'fall' as a result of an idealogical shift elsewhere towards autocracy but rather the United States having an autocratic ideology emerge from within. Ultimately though autocracies tend to get deluded over time as they are based on the perceptions of the few and often miss the realities of the many - this leads to social dysfunction. The advantages of having a free, educated, healthy and empowered society are that they are more adaptable to changing circumstances.

As a result of the GFC China is investing heavily in education, health and industrial infrastructure while stockpiling primary resources. They are doing this by building hospitals, manufacturing plants and universities while paying for their citizens to get educations in western countries such as Australia, the United States and Britain. In contrast the industrial base of western countries has been in decline as corporations outsource it to other countries, education is viewed as a service that is sold to both international and local students with a battle continually raging on about if the same thing should be done for healthcare.
 

rip

New Member
This sounds like complex systems theory vs ecological systems theory. The one that has been around for a while is ecological systems theory which is what Riksavage is basing his argument on says that systems, in this case empires, change in a linear way based on action and reaction therefore leading to the statement "the countries decline will be marked by an ideological change elsewhere".

Complex systems theory is concerned with relationships between parts that give rise to the collective behaviors of a system and how the system interacts and forms relationships with its environment that leads to the statement "regardless of how smart, educated or even nobly motivated the leadership could ever be within any organization of any significant size it could never be very efficient."

Complex systems theory recognizes complex relationships between complex environments. In this sense the United States would not 'fall' as a result of an idealogical shift elsewhere towards autocracy but rather the United States having an autocratic ideology emerge from within. Ultimately though autocracies tend to get deluded over time as they are based on the perceptions of the few and often miss the realities of the many - this leads to social dysfunction. The advantages of having a free, educated, healthy and empowered society are that they are more adaptable to changing circumstances.

As a result of the GFC China is investing heavily in education, health and industrial infrastructure while stockpiling primary resources. They are doing this by building hospitals, manufacturing plants and universities while paying for their citizens to get educations in western countries such as Australia, the United States and Britain. In contrast the industrial base of western countries has been in decline as corporations outsource it to other countries, education is viewed as a service that is sold to both international and local students with a battle continually raging on about if the same thing should be done for healthcare.
While I cannot disagree with the primary thrust of your analyses, I think however you brushed over my primary point about how progress will be obtained in the future.

My point was that a top down management system, used for any complex human activity can be very effective when you are only executing known paths to success. Your catalog of Chinas’ efforts to obtain its success is in fact a list of already proved paths of advancing a society into modernly. Those paths which were first forged by others.

But that is OK; this is why a society that was basically medieval can in just two short generations becomes modern. Reaping the benefit in just forty years that tock the innovators two hundred. A top down organization can see examples of success and follow them as it also profits from seeing the mistakes that the pioneers once made which they can then avoid.

The real difference comes when all the proven paths to successes have been exploited. Where is it then that new progress will come from? And new and as yet unproven and perhaps at first unwanted progress is always a process of creative destruction. Top down, elite driven systems are structurally unable to successfully pioneer new and better ways of doing things that have always been done before or to see completely new categories and paths of advancement, because they threaten the old ways that the organization has already heavily invested in. That which does not improve and adapt will eventually wither. This is a law of nature of which there is no exception.
 

MyopicMuppet

New Member
While I cannot disagree with the primary thrust of your analyses, I think however you brushed over my primary point about how progress will be obtained in the future.

My point was that a top down management system, used for any complex human activity can be very effective when you are only executing known paths to success. Your catalog of Chinas’ efforts to obtain its success is in fact a list of already proved paths of advancing a society into modernly. Those paths which were first forged by others.

But that is OK; this is why a society that was basically medieval can in just two short generations becomes modern. Reaping the benefit in just forty years that tock the innovators two hundred. A top down organization can see examples of success and follow them as it also profits from seeing the mistakes that the pioneers once made which they can then avoid.

The real difference comes when all the proven paths to successes have been exploited. Where is it then that new progress will come from? And new and as yet unproven and perhaps at first unwanted progress is always a process of creative destruction. Top down, elite driven systems are structurally unable to successfully pioneer new and better ways of doing things that have always been done before or to see completely new categories and paths of advancement, because they threaten the old ways that the organization has already heavily invested in. That which does not improve and adapt will eventually wither. This is a law of nature of which there is no exception.
I agree with you that top down structures can engage in rapid industrial transformations and have done in the past, The Soviet Union in the 1930's is another the example that comes to mind, I also agree with you that once these changes have occured the playing field changes.

The sorts of activities that China is having to undertake are the sorts of things that would be difficult in a more open society. The one child policy, transformation of vast tracts of agricultural land to industrial and building new new cities in the middle of nowhere for the mass migration going on from the country to the cities.

The inherent weakness in this system though is the paranoia about surface appearances. The state spends lots of its energies watching its own people, down the line that often translates to trying to work out who spoke out about the problem in the belief that if nobody talks about it the problem doesn't esxit, I think that this generally annoys people especially if the problem never gets resolved. I think this is often the source of the creative destruction that you talked about, people have ideas about how to resolve problems around them, these ideas are repressed by authorities who percieve these ideas to be a threat to their positions, most likely through some percieved or actual incompetence on their part. In this sense the institution could eventually become the problem that people start looking for a solution in the form of destruction.

In terms of how things will progress in the future, its difficult to say as we are starting to see the effects of the information revolution on autocratic state structures such as in the cases of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and possibly Syria. Other things like wikileaks releasing the diplomatic papers and the guantanimo files enables the people to hold government, individuals and interest groups responsible for actions carried out in their name. What the IT changes make possible are the opening up of institutions, successful future societies will most likely be the ones that recognise this and make more effective institutions with the new tools available. Like you say societies that are not able to achieve this will stagnate or wither and die.
 

rip

New Member
I agree with you that top down structures can engage in rapid industrial transformations and have done in the past, The Soviet Union in the 1930's is another the example that comes to mind, I also agree with you that once these changes have occured the playing field changes.

The sorts of activities that China is having to undertake are the sorts of things that would be difficult in a more open society. The one child policy, transformation of vast tracts of agricultural land to industrial and building new new cities in the middle of nowhere for the mass migration going on from the country to the cities.

The inherent weakness in this system though is the paranoia about surface appearances. The state spends lots of its energies watching its own people, down the line that often translates to trying to work out who spoke out about the problem in the belief that if nobody talks about it the problem doesn't esxit, I think that this generally annoys people especially if the problem never gets resolved. I think this is often the source of the creative destruction that you talked about, people have ideas about how to resolve problems around them, these ideas are repressed by authorities who percieve these ideas to be a threat to their positions, most likely through some percieved or actual incompetence on their part. In this sense the institution could eventually become the problem that people start looking for a solution in the form of destruction.

In terms of how things will progress in the future, its difficult to say as we are starting to see the effects of the information revolution on autocratic state structures such as in the cases of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and possibly Syria. Other things like wikileaks releasing the diplomatic papers and the guantanimo files enables the people to hold government, individuals and interest groups responsible for actions carried out in their name. What the IT changes make possible are the opening up of institutions, successful future societies will most likely be the ones that recognise this and make more effective institutions with the new tools available. Like you say societies that are not able to achieve this will stagnate or wither and die.
We often speak as if the world is rushing toward some kind of common culture and perhaps it is in a way. But the effects of culture and the general ways people think do not make us all equal in all things. I am not talking about race or economic or political systems, I am talking about culture. The subtleties of the human mind as it creates an internal image of the world around it, which are of course, are always flawed and incomplete. Each type of image brings advantages and disadvantages to solving different kinds of problems, hence the much quoted advantage of respecting human diversity.

I remember not too many years ago when Japan was roaring great guns in its new wealth and in the pride of advancements it had achieved in so many different areas of human activity. However what is was in fact doing, was completing its final stage of advancement into full modernity and joining the first rank of modern nations. It was the first nonwestern nation to do so but it will not be the last. And I remember how this accomplishment was attributed to Japan’s unique culture, their sense of unity as a people, their business practices, and its invocations, which were going to let it surpass everybody else. But after reaching this stage of development they began to faultier.

Now I am the first to admit that the Japanese are a remarkable people and they do some things better than anyone else. The most obvious one is their ability to take someone’s else idea and continue to refining it to heights that were never dreamed of by the idea’s own creator and their quality control is second to none but after the know paths to additional advancement has been exhausted they didn’t know where then to go or what to do and then began drifting.

They saw this happening for themselves and knew they had a problem so they started several national campaigns to pursue goals to gain additional advancement (they were typical top down approaches as we would expect from a Confucian society) to create additional value within their society and thus become pioneers themselves in their own right but none of these projects ever fulfilled their hopes.

Through they are and will continue to be a great country and are a great people they are still drifting, are they not? I am sure they will not drift forever but for now they do not know what to do to overcome their current state of malaise that has lasted at least for a decade. They know that just doing more of what has worked for them in the past is not enough.

That will continue to be true until they make an adjustment in their culture or put it in better way, their way of thinking about the world they live in. That is what I mean when I say that when you travel from the known into the unknown in the search for progress, even if you have the smarts, the strength, the drive, and hope to go forward, the top down approach does not work very well.

The reason I think that my country is not going to just fade away like many assume it must and like many of the European countries seem to be doing, is because of its proven record of inventing and reinventing the future.

It has been doing this for a long time now. It dosn't do it alone I grant you but it is out in front. The future, the way all of us will live someday. What in the future will be considered to be modern, successful, desirable and even just normal? Is that wishful thinking on my part? Maybe, only time will tell.
 

MyopicMuppet

New Member
We often speak as if the world is rushing toward some kind of common culture and perhaps it is in a way. But the effects of culture and the general ways people think do not make us all equal in all things. I am not talking about race or economic or political systems, I am talking about culture. The subtleties of the human mind as it creates an internal image of the world around it, which are of course, are always flawed and incomplete. Each type of image brings advantages and disadvantages to solving different kinds of problems, hence the much quoted advantage of respecting human diversity.

I remember not too many years ago when Japan was roaring great guns in its new wealth and in the pride of advancements it had achieved in so many different areas of human activity. However what is was in fact doing, was completing its final stage of advancement into full modernity and joining the first rank of modern nations. It was the first nonwestern nation to do so but it will not be the last. And I remember how this accomplishment was attributed to Japan’s unique culture, their sense of unity as a people, their business practices, and its invocations, which were going to let it surpass everybody else. But after reaching this stage of development they began to faultier.

Now I am the first to admit that the Japanese are a remarkable people and they do some things better than anyone else. The most obvious one is their ability to take someone’s else idea and continue to refining it to heights that were never dreamed of by the idea’s own creator and their quality control is second to none but after the know paths to additional advancement has been exhausted they didn’t know where then to go or what to do and then began drifting.

They saw this happening for themselves and knew they had a problem so they started several national campaigns to pursue goals to gain additional advancement (they were typical top down approaches as we would expect from a Confucian society) to create additional value within their society and thus become pioneers themselves in their own right but none of these projects ever fulfilled their hopes.

Through they are and will continue to be a great country and are a great people they are still drifting, are they not? I am sure they will not drift forever but for now they do not know what to do to overcome their current state of malaise that has lasted at least for a decade. They know that just doing more of what has worked for them in the past is not enough.

That will continue to be true until they make an adjustment in their culture or put it in better way, their way of thinking about the world they live in. That is what I mean when I say that when you travel from the known into the unknown in the search for progress, even if you have the smarts, the strength, the drive, and hope to go forward, the top down approach does not work very well.

The reason I think that my country is not going to just fade away like many assume it must and like many of the European countries seem to be doing, is because of its proven record of inventing and reinventing the future.

It has been doing this for a long time now. It dosn't do it alone I grant you but it is out in front. The future, the way all of us will live someday. What in the future will be considered to be modern, successful, desirable and even just normal? Is that wishful thinking on my part? Maybe, only time will tell.
Although culture can play a part in how people react to cicumstances you are right in saying that it is not the ultimate determining factor, it can often come down to rather mundane things like the proverb;

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

I thought that the Japanese economic meltdown was less to do with local culture and more to do with international financial practices. From the little I know about it, it had to do with Japanese land prices being elevated, which people borrowed money against to pay for business ventures and to maintain a high lifestyle. When the bubble burst lots of people found that they owed more money to the banks than the value of their properties and were then locked into huge debt rapayments. sort of like maxing out your credit card while being unemployed and not being able or willing to declare yourself bankrupt. This behaviour suits lenders because its how money is created, a person or institution signs a contract saying that they will pay back a loan after a certain period of time so money is based on whatever activities the person or institution engages in order to pay back the loan. The lenders themselves enter a few numbers into a computer and then collect on the interest. If nobody is really doing anything other than mincing about when the bubble bursts all of this money that was supposed to be in existence dissapears or becomes known as toxic assets.

Well there is that idea of American exceptionalism and there is always optimism about the next big thing taking off. The US also could just default on national debt, this would completely destroy the global financial system but, provided China doesn't declare war over it, the US would probably come out ok.

theres that saying that can be taken in a few different ways "The future's not what it used to be"
 

rip

New Member
Although culture can play a part in how people react to cicumstances you are right in saying that it is not the ultimate determining factor, it can often come down to rather mundane things like the proverb;

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

I thought that the Japanese economic meltdown was less to do with local culture and more to do with international financial practices. From the little I know about it, it had to do with Japanese land prices being elevated, which people borrowed money against to pay for business ventures and to maintain a high lifestyle. When the bubble burst lots of people found that they owed more money to the banks than the value of their properties and were then locked into huge debt rapayments. sort of like maxing out your credit card while being unemployed and not being able or willing to declare yourself bankrupt. This behaviour suits lenders because its how money is created, a person or institution signs a contract saying that they will pay back a loan after a certain period of time so money is based on whatever activities the person or institution engages in order to pay back the loan. The lenders themselves enter a few numbers into a computer and then collect on the interest. If nobody is really doing anything other than mincing about when the bubble bursts all of this money that was supposed to be in existence dissapears or becomes known as toxic assets.

Well there is that idea of American exceptionalism and there is always optimism about the next big thing taking off. The US also could just default on national debt, this would completely destroy the global financial system but, provided China doesn't declare war over it, the US would probably come out ok.

theres that saying that can be taken in a few different ways "The future's not what it used to be"
I do not think that the fact that the Japanese have made some mistakes is an important issue. Everyone makes mistakes both big and small. No matter how smart of carful you are you will still sometimes make mistakes. China has had a pretty good run lately, I think we would agree about that. But if you think they will not someday make some big mistakes of their own then you are living on another planet.

What I was trying ever so imperfectly to point out was that the Japanese current way of looking at their world is inadequate for the challenges of which they now face though it has served them well in the past. I believe that they will make the necessary mental adjustments and after this last natural disaster from which they have suffered they might have begun the soul searching process necessary to come up with some new perceptions as to how they can meet their challenges and continue to advance.

Like I said your culture, your mental world view of what is or is not possible to do or what is or is not possible within you power to change, both big and small counts allot and will have a great effect on how well you can meet the challenges the world brings to you. A world view that has served you excellently in the past may fail under new circumstances and a cultural adjustment, a different way of thinking may be required to successfully react to this new situation within an Empire or not.

It so happens that too I very much like proverbs.So I will share some with you. I think they tell more about a people and their culture than most are able to recognize. I will pick two from Japan, China and my country the USA. I cannot tell if my selection biased but I think they ring true.

Japan.
One:
The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

Two:
Death is as light as a feather
but duty has the weight of a Mountain.

China.
One:
A rat that bites a cat’s tail invites destruction.

Two:
When you see a tiger bare its teeth it is not safe to assume that he is smiling.

USA.
One:

Shit happens,
deal with it.

Two:

Where there is life there is hope.

And as to my tedious optimism? Let us look at the facts. Today right now a greater percentage of the people in the worlds are healthier, better feed, longer lived, better educated, and looking forward to the future than any other time within human existence. Not only is this true in absolute numbers but as a percent of people now living today. Can it get even better? I am optimistic.
 

MyopicMuppet

New Member
I do not think that the fact that the Japanese have made some mistakes is an important issue. Everyone makes mistakes both big and small. No matter how smart of carful you are you will still sometimes make mistakes. China has had a pretty good run lately, I think we would agree about that. But if you think they will not someday make some big mistakes of their own then you are living on another planet.

What I was trying ever so imperfectly to point out was that the Japanese current way of looking at their world is inadequate for the challenges of which they now face though it has served them well in the past. I believe that they will make the necessary mental adjustments and after this last natural disaster from which they have suffered they might have begun the soul searching process necessary to come up with some new perceptions as to how they can meet their challenges and continue to advance.

Like I said your culture, your mental world view of what is or is not possible to do or what is or is not possible within you power to change, both big and small counts allot and will have a great effect on how well you can meet the challenges the world brings to you. A world view that has served you excellently in the past may fail under new circumstances and a cultural adjustment, a different way of thinking may be required to successfully react to this new situation within an Empire or not.

It so happens that too I very much like proverbs.So I will share some with you. I think they tell more about a people and their culture than most are able to recognize. I will pick two from Japan, China and my country the USA. I cannot tell if my selection biased but I think they ring true.

Japan.
One:
The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

Two:
Death is as light as a feather
but duty has the weight of a Mountain.

China.
One:
A rat that bites a cat’s tail invites destruction.

Two:
When you see a tiger bare its teeth it is not safe to assume that he is smiling.

USA.
One:

Shit happens,
deal with it.

Two:

Where there is life there is hope.

And as to my tedious optimism? Let us look at the facts. Today right now a greater percentage of the people in the worlds are healthier, better feed, longer lived, better educated, and looking forward to the future than any other time within human existence. Not only is this true in absolute numbers but as a percent of people now living today. Can it get even better? I am optimistic.

I didn't mean to suggest that China wouldn't make mistakes in the future, in fact as you say they will at some point if not already.


I haven't made enough posts to be able to attach links but if you serach "Hans Rosling's 200 Countries, 200 Years, 4 Minutes" in youtube you will find a well done visual showing the stats of world progress - something to be optimistic about.

I understand and agree with your point about culture shaping things, and although I don't think that there will ever be just one world culture, the ability to connect worldwide has an effect on culture. Even language is becoming less of a barrier, I was able to translate the facebook page of the Syrian revolution and the Libyan provisional governments webpage into english with the click of a button.

My perceptions of US culture, as an Aussie are that there is a tendency to speak loudly and overreact to things..... but then again Australian culture is to be laid back and poke fun when people are taking things seriously - so I would naturally think that.
 

rip

New Member
I didn't mean to suggest that China wouldn't make mistakes in the future, in fact as you say they will at some point if not already.


I haven't made enough posts to be able to attach links but if you serach "Hans Rosling's 200 Countries, 200 Years, 4 Minutes" in youtube you will find a well done visual showing the stats of world progress - something to be optimistic about.

I understand and agree with your point about culture shaping things, and although I don't think that there will ever be just one world culture, the ability to connect worldwide has an effect on culture. Even language is becoming less of a barrier, I was able to translate the facebook page of the Syrian revolution and the Libyan provisional governments webpage into english with the click of a button.

My perceptions of US culture, as an Aussie are that there is a tendency to speak loudly and overreact to things..... but then again Australian culture is to be laid back and poke fun when people are taking things seriously - so I would naturally think that.

I tend to agree with you to. The world is trying to communicate and in various ways, weave itself together and for a very good reason, even against so much internal opposition. The human race as a whole is rushing into a new condition that it has never been seen before because there are now, so many of us that the old rules no longer apply. One out of every four people who ever lived on Earth is in fact alive right now. And we must be interconnected and cooperative just to sustain these unprecedented numbers or we would face a major die off. To avoid this we must, if we like it or not, work together even closer, all of us.

Human civilization is not guaranteed. Of the minimum sixty-thousand years that anatomically modern people have existed, we can trace human civilization only back for five-thousand. While in the past, when a civilization fails, in different part of the world, there was another one rising. If our worldwide system were to fall we wound all fall together, we might not ever recover as a species for a number of very real reasons that would go even further off topic than we already have.

Going back to the original question of the thread, “Do Empires fall only due to stupidity??” What if we are in fact already in or will soon will be forever locked in to a world empire if we recognize it or not? But one which is always threatened by civil war.

But a growing convergence of interests does not mean unanimity of styles. WE will always need as we should honor diversity of thought and respect different human choices, even as we continue to argue about them or fatal stagnation will result.
 

MyopicMuppet

New Member
I tend to agree with you to. The world is trying to communicate and in various ways, weave itself together and for a very good reason, even against so much internal opposition. The human race as a whole is rushing into a new condition that it has never been seen before because there are now, so many of us that the old rules no longer apply. One out of every four people who ever lived on Earth is in fact alive right now. And we must be interconnected and cooperative just to sustain these unprecedented numbers or we would face a major die off. To avoid this we must, if we like it or not, work together even closer, all of us.

Human civilization is not guaranteed. Of the minimum sixty-thousand years that anatomically modern people have existed, we can trace human civilization only back for five-thousand. While in the past, when a civilization fails, in different part of the world, there was another one rising. If our worldwide system were to fall we wound all fall together, we might not ever recover as a species for a number of very real reasons that would go even further off topic than we already have.

Going back to the original question of the thread, “Do Empires fall only due to stupidity??” What if we are in fact already in or will soon will be forever locked in to a world empire if we recognize it or not? But one which is always threatened by civil war.

But a growing convergence of interests does not mean unanimity of styles. WE will always need as we should honor diversity of thought and respect different human choices, even as we continue to argue about them or fatal stagnation will result.
In relation to what you are saying I came across a documentary last night that looks at these things. It was called soldiers of peace, narrated by Michael Douglas and looks at the lowering of actual conflicts over the past 15 years, there is also the zeitgeist movement that is starting to take off.
 

TheEk_swe

New Member
The greatest cause of an empires to fail is that (for whatever reason) they fail to adapt to a changing world. A world that might have changed in part, as a resuilt, from their own success. No matter how great were your past successes, how pure is your heart, how comfortably you are in your current situation, the world around you continues to change. And as we see around us now, it changes at an ever faster rate. Empires are like living things and like all living things are subject to the laws of evolution. Very little that stands still survives.
That is correct l thik that it can depend on that the empires think that they can hold evolution back and by such means still role if you know what l mean.
 
Top