Defence of Taiwan

Panacea

New Member
China has continues on and off dispute with Vietnam in SCS, China behaving aggresive in SCS toward Indonesian internationally recognize EEZ (a non claimant in SCS but with area bordering SCS), China intimidating Philippines and Malaysia in the disputed area in SCS.
As I mentioned several South China Sea countries staking overlapping claims against each other, not only against China and China doesn't control many islands there. Not a single shot was fired over 3 decades in South China Sea, so the region is largely calm and peaceful, no one is very aggressive in that region otherwise bullets would be flying decades ago.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
China has 14 land neigbors, India is the only one China has real territorial problems with. That makes having problems with one out of 14, it's not so bad as many claimed.
I understand that you want to defend your country, but if you deny the existance of Communist China's territorial problems with Bhutan, Brunei, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Philippines, South-Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam and North-Korea, then that means that Japan also doesnt have real territorial problems with the countries you mention.
 

Panacea

New Member
@Musashi_kenshin point out, China harrasing Japan in the disputed waters.
This island is disputed, so both countries believe they have the right to be there. South Korea and Japan have a more active island dispute than this one and Russia bombers circled around Japan several time because of its share of island dispute with Japan, this is something can be really called intimidation.
 
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Panacea

New Member
I understand that you want to defend your country, but if you deny the existance of Communist China's territorial problems with Bhutan, Brunei, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Philippines, South-Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam and North-Korea, then that means that Japan also doesnt have real territorial problems with the countries you mention.
When was the last time China fired a single shot to another country? South China Sea is a problem that various countries dispute each other, not only with China.Bhutan just issued a statement that the country enjoys cordial relationship with China. North Korea? China has a better relationship with North Korea than most countries with it, their leader just visited China not long ago.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
This island is disputed, so both countries believe they have the right to be there.
China throws a mega-tantrum when any ships come within 12 miles of the artificial islands it created in the SCS. Are you saying it should shut up? If it has the right to complain, Japan has the right to complain when it feels threatened.

South Korea and Japan have a more active island dispute than this one
Do you have any data as to how often Japanese ships have sailed near to the Dokdo islets recently? Other people have showed the significant increase in Chinese incursions around the aforementioned Japanese islands. I'm not aware that Japanese ships were off the Dokdos 456 days out of 519 (17 month period) or anywhere near that.

Russia bombers circled around Japan several time because of its share of island dispute with Japan
It has little to do with the island dispute, because Russia is in full control of those islands and feels comfortable about it. It's about Japan's status as a US strategic ally. Russia has no territorial disputes with the UK, yet it routinely sends bombers flying towards the UK, only turning away at the last minute.

Now I'm waiting for you to publish some polling about how Taiwanese feel about Japan. I shared a poll showing Japan is Taiwan's favourite country. You share a poll from a reputable source to show Taiwanese mostly view Japan with hostility.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
This island is disputed, so both countries believe they have the right to be there. South Korea and Japan have a more active island dispute than this one and Russia bombers circled around Japan several time because of its share of island dispute with Japan, this is can be really called intimidation.
Come on, we all know that Russia and the US often fly close to the borders of each other and other countries as a show of force, its their hobby. You can not use some circling Russian bombers as an indication that Japan has more serious problems with other countries which is the proof that they are the real agressors of the neighbourhood.
When was the last time China fired a single shot to another country? South China Sea is a problem that various countries dispute each other, not only with China.Bhutan just issued a statement that the country enjoys cordial relationship with China. North Korea? China has a better relationship with North Korea than most countries with it, their leader just visited China not long ago.
I understand that you want to deny facts and try to turn this discussion into another direction, but we are now talking about territorial and EEZ disputes, not about relationships between china with a very small country and an ally.
 

Panacea

New Member
China throws a mega-tantrum when any ships come within 12 miles of the artificial islands it created in the SCS. Are you saying it should shut up? If it has the right to complain, Japan has the right to complain when it feels threatened.
Every country does this to show their official postion, you can not claim China is bully just because China is a bigger country, China doesn't control many islands in South China Sea, Vietnam does.
 

Panacea

New Member
Posting deliberate falsehood
It has little to do with the island dispute, because Russia is in full control of those islands and feels comfortable about it. It's about Japan's status as a US strategic ally. Russia has no territorial disputes with the UK, yet it routinely sends bombers flying towards the UK, only turning away at the last minute.
Russia threatens Japan with words and actions many times each year and denied having any territorial disputes with Japan, technically the two countries are still at war, a peace treaty has never signed between them. [Mod edit: Factually incorrect].
 
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Panacea

New Member
Now I'm waiting for you to publish some polling about how Taiwanese feel about Japan. I shared a poll showing Japan is Taiwan's favourite country. You share a poll from a reputable source to show Taiwanese mostly view Japan with hostility.
I never claimed the majority in Taiwan hate Japan , I was just pointing out the fact that they also have an ongoing land dispute which upsets many people in Taiwan.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
When was the last time China fired a single shot to another country? South China Sea is a problem that various countries dispute each other, not only with China.Bhutan just issued a statement that the country enjoys cordial relationship with China. North Korea? China has a better relationship with North Korea than most countries with it, their leader just visited China not long ago.
How about the question, "when was the last time a PRC vessel rammed another vessel either with a foreign flag, or under tow by a foreign-flagged vessel?"

I ask that because there is more to a use of force at sea than 'just' weapons fire.
Russia threatens Japan with words and actions many times each year and denied having any territorial disputes with Japan, technically the two countries are still at war, a peace treaty has never signed between them.
Umm... You might want to check into the Soviet-Japanese Joint Declaration of 1956, as that ended the state of war between the two nations. It did not resolve conflicting territorial claims, but it did end the state of war.
 

Panacea

New Member
we are now talking about territorial and EEZ disputes, not about relationships between china with a very small country and an ally.
It depends on different countries perspectives on where their lands end. US has some territories next to China and Japan, you can't say they are not US soil just because they are on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.
 

Panacea

New Member
Umm... You might want to check into the Soviet-Japanese Joint Declaration of 1956, as that ended the state of war between the two nations. It did not resolve conflicting territorial claims, but it did end the state of war.
"The Soviet government refused to sign the 1951 peace treaty and the state of war between the Soviet Union and Japan technically existed until 1956, when it was ended by the Soviet–Japanese Joint Declaration of 1956. A formal peace treaty still has not been signed.


 
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Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I never claimed the majority in Taiwan hate Japan , I was just pointing out the fact that they also have an ongoing land dispute which upsets many people in Taiwan.
Who on earth cares what a small minority of people think when we're talking about international relations? There are minority views in every country that are angry about other nations. Even countries that generally have good relations with the PRC have China-sceptics. It proves nothing.

The fact of the matter is that Taiwan generally speaking gets on well with Japan. Just accept that and move on. If you don't want to accept it because it breaks your narrative that Japan is unfriendly or aggressive towards all of its neighbours then I can't help you.

EDIT: I'd ask everyone to let Panacea have the last word if he/she wants to. It's clear the discussion is going nowhere.
 

Panacea

New Member
Who on earth cares what a small minority of people think when we're talking about international relations? There are minority views in every country that are angry about other nations. Even countries that generally have good relations with the PRC have China-sceptics. It proves nothing.

The fact of the matter is that Taiwan generally speaking gets on well with Japan. Just accept that and move on. If you don't want to accept it because it breaks your narrative that Japan is unfriendly or aggressive towards all of its neighbours then I can't help you.

EDIT: I'd ask everyone to let Panacea have the last word if he/she wants to. It's clear the discussion is going nowhere.
I only pointed out that's not what I was talking about, I was talking about countries having territorial disputes with each other and Japan is of no exception.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
"The Soviet government refused to sign the 1951 peace treaty and the state of war between the Soviet Union and Japan technically existed until 1956, when it was ended by the Soviet–Japanese Joint Declaration of 1956. A formal peace treaty still has not been signed.
Japan–Russia relations - Wikipedia"Japan–Russia relations - Wikipedia.
Yet you stated above (note the bolded portion) that;

Russia threatens Japan with words and actions many times each year and denied having any territorial disputes with Japan, technically the two countries are still at war, a peace treaty has never signed between them.
Which the joint declaration ended.

Now note the portion of your reply which I bolded to draw attention and for emphasis

"The Soviet government refused to sign the 1951 peace treaty and the state of war between the Soviet Union and Japan technically existed until 1956, when it was ended by the Soviet–Japanese Joint Declaration of 1956. A formal peace treaty still has not been signed.
Japan–Russia relations - Wikipedia"Japan–Russia relations - Wikipedia.
Either the state of war has ended between the then Soviet Union now Russia and Japan, or the two countries are still at war. Either the Joint Declaration of 1956 ended the state of war between those two countries, or it did not. At this point it appears that an incorrect claim was made. If it was a mistake, that is one thing as people make mistakes, provided people acknowledge the mistake. However, trouble lies in persisting with false claims as that tends to suggest an agenda which has little or nothing to do with factual information.
 

Panacea

New Member
Selling of propaganda points not allowed
Yet you stated above (note the bolded portion) that;

Which the joint declaration ended.

Now note the portion of your reply which I bolded to draw attention and for emphasis

Either the state of war has ended between the then Soviet Union now Russia and Japan, or the two countries are still at war. Either the Joint Declaration of 1956 ended the state of war between those two countries, or it did not. At this point it appears that an incorrect claim was made. If it was a mistake, that is one thing as people make mistakes, provided people acknowledge the mistake. However, trouble lies in persisting with false claims as that tends to suggest an agenda which has little or nothing to do with factual information.
Maybe people have different take on this issue and it's debatable. [Mod Edit: Facts are not debatable — unless you are here not to learn but spew misinformation. Last warning, before we ban you.]
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Maybe people have different take on this issue and it's debatable.


Not really. Trying to "debate" whether two nations are still at war, when there is text and translations of the international document which both nations signed which among other things ended the state of war between them is not really possible. To attempt to claim otherwise would require such a suspension of reality and leave one attempting to debate fantasy or fiction.
 

RogerP

New Member
I wonder where TWN would stand if fighting did break out. It'd be confusing, since both TWN and JPN are US allies. But TWN opposes JPN's claim of Diaoyu (and its own claim of Diaoyu is the same one as the PRC's)...:dbanana

...

The JPN move to "buy" the islands from its "private owners" (it is never mentioned who they are) is a grand master stroke.

Without deploying a single military personnel, this seemingly civil gesture has brought PRC closest to losing its composure and show its hand.

If they manage to provoke the PRC into aggressive military action with a civil gesture, PRC will then be proven to be the aggressor and thus give US the perfect excuse to intervene.
China would take Taiwan in an hour, the only reason that they do not is because the UN would approve sanctions that would prevent China from benefitting from the takeover.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
China would take Taiwan in an hour
That is complete drivel, not least because it would take longer than an hour for Chinese troops to arrive and disembark on Taiwanese beaches, let alone defeat the Taiwanese military. I can't think of any modern war that was over in just an hour.

the only reason that they do not is because the UN would approve sanctions that would prevent China from benefitting from the takeover.
China can veto any sanctions on the UN Security Council.

Honestly, are you here to troll or have you just been fed Chinese propaganda from birth?
 
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