Counter-Insurgency Warfare

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Manfred2

New Member
It is the easiest thing in the world to compair people to the Nazi SS when they are dealing effectivly with a violent situation... it has become rather common in the last 50 years.

If .01% of our armed forces were that bad, it would be enough to damn us in any case. Show me a city with 150,000 people in it that has less than a dozen bad people in it, and I will crap you a gold brick.

Americans have been called weak, naive and soft-hearted. So sorry if we are not living up to that UK reporter's pre-concieved notion of us, but us Yankees have never been very good at fitting into other people's pidgeon-holes.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
It is the easiest thing in the world to compair people to the Nazi SS when they are dealing effectivly with a violent situation... it has become rather common in the last 50 years.
I think the problem is not so simple.

Firstly many US troops come from violent social and community backgrounds. Aside from the fact that there is a gun culture in US, and violence is readily found in media, in fact media is saturated with it, the points made in the article are that the military as an organisation does not prepare troop for service in what is not a clear cut case of military deployment. Most troops go through basic preparing to fight a war, not become police. Consider however how police behaves in the US. The 'take downs' that require 6:1 in numbers, and people being shot 10-40 times during an arrest! You see same in the article, but applied by military which can't tell civilians from insurgents, and it seems doesn't want to.

The tactics used are based on the urban combat manual, but are the troops engaged in urban combat? Most of the time they are just being used by locals to settle scores!

This is why I compare them to SS. SS, at least in in Eastern Europe, also went into homes on advice of local police looking for Jews and communists who were dehumanised and devalued. They were also ignorant of the local culture and history, and were seeking to impose own cultural and political values on the population based on an ideal.

If .01% of our armed forces were that bad, it would be enough to damn us in any case. Show me a city with 150,000 people in it that has less than a dozen bad people in it, and I will crap you a gold brick.
I think the suggestion is that the percentage of troops behaving badly is far greater then .01%
You are presenting a challenge of Biblical proportions :) However, troops are under different expectations then general public. This is why they claim to be disciplined and trained.

Americans have been called weak, naive and soft-hearted. So sorry if we are not living up to that UK reporter's pre-concieved notion of us, but us Yankees have never been very good at fitting into other people's pidgeon-holes
I'm not sure how such a statement relates to the issue at hand. In any case, it seems that the US troops are not living up to their own standards, never mind those of others.

Greg
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think the problem is not so simple.

Firstly many US troops come from violent social and community backgrounds. Aside from the fact that there is a gun culture in US
Thats a rather bold and empirical statement to make..... the anthropological reference material for this conclusion was sourced from whereabouts?
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I don't have figures handy (but can get them) which state that the socio-economic breakdown of non-technical specialties in DoD recruitment are predominantly from the lower socio-economic levels of society. Many (and I would be so bold as to say predominantly) who join the military are seeking free education and no-question-asked ability to work. The US DoD like all armies are having a great level of difficulty in recruiting individuals which have the potential to undertake education and work in the areas that require university degrees in civilian employment.
Not everyone is a rifleman.

That there is a huge level of violence in the US society is actually a given considering there are an estimated 270 million guns in private ownership. US has a very high level of crime for a developed country (comparatively), and this shows in the prison populations.

However, I don't particularly want to get into this area because I've been there done that, and eventually it comes down to Americans saying that 'we like it this way'.

Whatever the case, armies usually are representative of their societies.

Cheers
Greg
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Whatever the case, armies usually are representative of their societies.

Cheers
Greg
Brasil has a higher incidence of gun related crime in RdJ than any city in the US. ;)

You need to define the issue of the rule of law in a given society before drawing parallels between the behaviour of their military and the society (or govt) that they are sworn to defend..

there's a huge difference.

if you were going to argue demographic breakup you could look at ADF data for the last 20 years - quality adjusts when the economy shifts. does the quality of discipline change due to less "academic" enrolments going up?

militaries need to be looked at through the prism and veil of their insititutional strength as well as issues of the separation of powers vis a vis the rule of law.

looking at pure anthropologically linked demographic criteria is still a sweeping assumption IMO
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That there is a huge level of violence in the US society is actually a given considering there are an estimated 270 million guns in private ownership. US has a very high level of crime for a developed country (comparatively), and this shows in the prison populations.
Not really.
1. In comparison to other developed countries (Europe, Japan), the US has a predisposition to more violent crimes, not more crimes in general. Which has to do with the availability of guns, but not on the perps' side. That is, unlike in the US a breaking-and-entering in Germany will rarely be perpetrated in an armed fashion.
2. The US has a rather high prison population because the US judicial system is rather screwy and harsh from a European viewpoint. This is partly due to the entirely different intention behind imprisoning between Europe and the US (resozialization vs punishment-and-deterrence).

Also, as a side note, the "lower socio-economic levels" in the United States have it far better than in other countries, especially than in countries without minimum wages. Both in economic terms and in education terms (at least for members of these social stratas that end up in the military).


As for the original direction of this thread, a look at Afghanistan might be more helpful than Iraq. Especially since different approaches and different basic concepts in approaching in various insurgency environments (and no, not just "North vs South") can be looked at there.
 

merocaine

New Member
Americans have been called weak, naive and soft-hearted. So sorry if we are not living up to that UK reporter's pre-concieved notion of us, but us Yankees have never been very good at fitting into other people's pidgeon-holes.
The article was taken from the nation magizine(american), it was reprinted in the Guardian(british).

Future Tank your so full of Sh*t its not true. Most of the actions described come about from the ROE's the troops were operating under, that and lack of command and control by officers and NCO's that should know better and were unprepared for the role they had to play.

This is not a problem of counter-insurgency tactics, but of the culture of the US forces. What the article describes, sounds a lot like behaviour of the Nazi SS and Gestapo!
It is exactly a problem of counter insurgency tactics!
SS and Gestapo???!!!!! there is no point in talking to you about any of this.
Taking your bullshit analogy to its logical conclusion you are implying that America is a nazi dictatorship, since soldiers are a reflection of the socity they live in.
All I can say is your an incredibly ignorent and insulting person.
 

KGB

New Member
Was there ever a successful counter insurgency campaign conducted that was free of any atrocities or scandals of this sort? I doubt it ever happened, and whoever is able do such a thing deserves a nobel peace prize.

The psychological pressures placed on the men in a CI situation are severe, the nature of the war tends to alienate the men from the population. The dehumanizing effect is insidious and not unique to soldiers, I've seen the effect on medical staff faced with overwhelming demands. At some point, someone will crack.

speculation about violent crime rates and atrocities reveals more about your own biases than anything else. In truly violent countries, the crimes aren't reported and the criminals aren't in jail. The worst atrocities in ww2 came from cultures that are considered very ordered and civil.

Atrocities are inevitable in extended insurgencies.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The following link provides access to a very interesting paper written in 1962 by counter insurgency experts from around the globe (US, UK, France to name a few).

The findings / comments and historical facts remain as relevent today as they did back then. Amazing that this was written at the same time the US was getting sucked in to the Vietnam war.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/2006/R412-1.pdf
 

merocaine

New Member
I think the problem that the most effictive counter insurgency experts, ie the guys in the field who formed there theories by direct contact, encounters is that there seen at best as talented maveriks by the Staff officers.
An Army is essentilly a body of trained professional opinion, and as with all professional opinion there is a prevailling otodoxy, in most western army this is a doctorine of over whelming fire power.
Counter Insurgency warfare IMO is mostly a police action, it leaves little place for a docterine of fire power, hence all those guys hoping to make a carrier in the latest war will do there upmost to make sure that its fought in as close to conventional manner as possible. With as much fire power as possible.
 

merocaine

New Member
The following link provides access to a very interesting paper written in 1962 by counter insurgency experts from around the globe (US, UK, France to name a few).

The findings / comments and historical facts remain as relevent today as they did back then. Amazing that this was written at the same time the US was getting sucked in to the Vietnam war.
wow really excellent paper, cheers
 

Manfred2

New Member
Good article, and shows that is pays to investigate the wisdom of our elders.

This place never ceases to amaze me. If it is not already, this ought to be the most prestigious sire of it's kind.

I just had a bad thought; asymetrical warfare as practiced nowadays might possibly lead to an era where the only answer to an insurgency is more insurgents... and terrorists with more terroism. This of course would lead to a situation that Humanity is very familiar with; the Dark Ages.

In the mid-1970s, the CIA published a report that the Soviet Economy was failing, and that if they did not initiate an offensive war by 1985, they never would be able to. This turned out to be true.
Have there been any serious, reliable reports on the Future of asymetrical warfare in the next decade?
 

funtz

New Member
well no matter what people say anti insurgency operations will continue to claim the lives of well trained armed forces, especially during the initial phase during which the armed force is trying to get a foothold, and throughout the operation there will be casualties, doesn’t matter which force is dealing with the insurgency.

A lot depends on the training and logistical support that the insurgents have for example the extremist Islamic terrorists that the armed forces are dealing with throughout the world, have good training and supply and an active recruitment base which coupled with their knowledge of the battlefield gives them an advantage.

To stay especially on Military Strategy and Tactics which is used to counter terrorists, well having the right men is the only real strategy as every situation encountered on the field will be varied and unique.

The goal is to provide a solid secure environment to the local populace and then give them incentives to stop supporting the insurgents, hence reducing the local support, which is only possible when a political solution to there needs has been worked out and the money and weapons trail has been traced and closed, which is pretty much impossible unless political deals are in place with all the parties involved.

I can’t post links yet (too new a member) but a very good example of stopping a terrorist insurgency is the Punjab state of India, however again it helps no one as all the different operating theaters have different factors a strategy that works in Malaysia-Afghanistan is not necessarily a good strategy in Iraq.

Without including elaborate intelligence operations and political steps there is no way an insurgency can be dealt with. And casualties are sadly imminent and necessary for securing a stable secure world.
 
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Cletus Wilbury

New Member
Is it an insurgency?

I've been reading up everything i can get my hands on about insurgency/insurrection and counterinsurgency. In the literature published by the U.S. Army I found at least one document that said it is important to recognize an insurgency early. I also find in several documents that the appropriate strategy to deal with an insurgency is very different than terrorism.

The discussion about whether a certain situation is an insurgency could be considered a political discussion, but it's also important to determine which strategies will actually work.

This paper is a hot potato, can we talk about it? : AL-QAEDA AS INSURGENCY by Lieutenant Colonel Michael F. Morris, United States Marine Corps
 

Mumbatik

New Member
In my humble opinion the experience of counter-insurgency done right can be learned with the AFP of the Philippine Military.

Why the Philippines is the example of counter-insurgency done right
Both the Philippine counter-insurgencies proved to be successful. Given the results attained, it would appear that the counter-insurgency efforts were more similar than dissimilar. It is illuminating to examine how the counter-insurgencies were different. The counterinsurgencies were different in ways that proved to be largely irrelevant to the success of the effort. The counter-insurgency at the turn of the century was lead by United States forces who recruited locals to the effort, mostly to serve in civil positions and the local constabulary. The later counter-insurgency was an effort manned exclusively by Filipinos with minor US logistical and intelligence support, fighting an indigenous communist front made up of other Filipinos. The insurgency following the Spanish American War was a collection of loosely linked nodes operating independently, without coordination and with only nominal allegiance to the titular head, Aguinaldo. The Communists in the later insurgency were hyper-organized and controlled although there is the possibility this organization was more apparent on paper at NPA headquarters than on the ground.

Given the differences in who was leading the counter-insurgency, the US in one case, the Philippine Army in the other and the gap in time between the conflicts, it is striking how similar the efforts actually were. Both counter-insurgencies saw the greatest success when it came to rely on dispersed, independently operated units. Both counter-insurgency efforts made a priority of establishing local political control that had a chance to flourish under the protection of arms. Both sought to destroy those elements of the insurgency that were not willing to come under control of the government. The similarities in the two strategies separated by more than seventy years would make it seem that that commanders were operating out the same OPLAN or at least from the same doctrine. However, the counter-insurgency leaders did not adhere to any OPLAN and they had no access to doctrine. The counter-insurgencies in both cases made a virtue of necessity, and by doing so, independently arrived at the most effective strategy at fighting insurgents.

Regarding the issue of doctrine, the Philippine Army commanders engaged in the fight expressly denied that they were conducting the fight in adherence to US Army doctrine. Victor Corpus, a Philippine Army officer who defected to the Communists then returned to fight the insurgency, denied that he had learned anything from US Army doctrine. Instead, he adapted to the situation and what they learned from fighting the war. In the words of Corpus: "we drew mostly upon my experience. We didn't refer to any books. We had read the US manuals on low intensity conflicts, but we blamed those manuals for introducing COIN doctrines that only aggravated the situation. They apply conventional efforts to an unconventional situation. In particular, traditional civic action is a mere palliative. It does not go to the root causes of the problem, to the lack of democracy.”1

To Corpus, the crucial difference in successful vice un-successful counter-insurgency strategy was the sincerity and permanence of efforts to institutionalize democracy and address the legitimate concerns of the "grievance guerrillas."2 The strategy that Corpus advocated resulted in a "feeling among the populace that nonviolent avenues were available for interest articulation and realization." With Corpus and others in the Philippine Army pushing for sincere democratic reforms, people in the countryside were convinced to give up the insurgency. "They had given up precisely because the hardline approach.3

Was the fact that the Philippine Army counter-insurgency strategy so closely mirrored that of US Army counter-insurgency efforts prior to the Vietnam War-vintage COIN doctrine dismissed by Corpus, merely a coincidence? Did the winning strategy transcend the Philippine theater, or is there something unique in Filipino psychology or terrain that channeled strategy in one particular way? These appear to be unexamined questions. There does not seem to be any literature that would support or deny the theory that there is something in Filipino psychology that would result in one particular type of effective counter-insurgency strategy. Rather, it appears that the fact that the same strategy arose some eighty years apart, albeit in the same geographic location, is evidence that the counter-insurgency doctrine hit upon independently decades apart, is the appropriate way to counter “grievance guerrillas.”

The strategies of the successful counterinsurgency that arose independently find support in the US Marine Corps Small Wars Manual. The Marines who wrote that document noticed the imperative to contest insurgents with all available means with an emphasis on the moral and psychological. “The motive in small wars is not material destruction. It. is usually a project dealing with the social, economic, and political development of the people. It is of primary importance that the fullest benefit be derived from the psychological aspects of the situation. That implies a serious study of the people, their racial, political, religious, and mental development.”4 Serious study of foreign people takes time for a foreign counter-insurgency force, such as the United States Army in the Philippines. As for the Philippine Army, they had a head-start since they were of the same culture and psychology of the insurgents they were battling. Since the Philippine Army battalions were also living in the same environment as the insurgency they fought, those soldiers became all the more attuned to the culture and therefore, all the more effective.

Other successful counter-insurgencies share many of the characteristics of the Philippine campaigns. The Malay Emergency and the current US campaign in Iraq both resemble, in broad terms, the traits apparent in the Philippine counter-insurgency. Richard Clutterbuck, in his book The Long, Long War, identified the keys to the successful counter-insurgency in Malaysia: "Protection of the people and the government structure is essential. An extensive police force at the village level is also required."5 Clutterbuck’s description of the successful counter-insurgency are similar to those in the Philippines and those currently in effect by the US Army in Iraq.

There is little doubt that the Philippine Army, however fortuitously, went about their counter-insurgency in the right way. The key, which went un-remarked by Marks is that the Philippine Army had time to make sure their counter-insurgency worked. In the words of General in the current counter-insurgency fight in Iraq, “Counterinsurgency is a long-term proposition. The ability to fight counterinsurgency requires time and building-block approach for learning…”6 The reason the Philippine Army had the time to make their strategy worked is self evident; the government and the insurgents had no where else to go. Both sides would fight until the war ended one way or the other. Time is a luxury that foreign counter-insurgency forces do not always have, whereas indigenous counter-insurgencies can fight until resolution. However, so long as the counter-insurgency has the time to prosecute the strategy, the doctrine will be validated. If for some reason, the counter-insurgency must leave the field, the strategy will fail.

Ultimately, the Philippine Army had the time to grind down the Philippine Insurgency with a home-grown strategy that focused on the psychology of the insurgency and addressed the concerns of “grievance guerrillas.” Indigenous forces addressed the psychological needs of the grievance guerrillas and had the time to grind down and destroy recalcitrant revolutionaries. This is the essence of a counter-insurgency done right.

Notes:
1. Marks, Thomas. Maoist Insurgency Since Vietnam (London: Frank Cass) 2003. Pg 136.

2. Ibid. Pg 133.

3. Ibid.

4. United States Marine Corps Publications Small Wars Manual (Washington: United States Government) 1940. Pg 18.

5. Clutterbuck, Richard. From The Long Long War, Quoted in "Insurgency and Counter-insurgency: Lessons from Malaya" in Ohio University

6. Gaskin, Maj.Gen. Walter. “ DoD News Briefing with Maj. Gen. Gaskin from Iraq July 20, 2007” US Department of Defense News Transcript
 

Cletus Wilbury

New Member
Mumbatik's post

excellent analysis, Mumbatik.

I'll throw in a few comments and questions:
Regarding the the insurgency following the Spanish American War, I don't think we (the U.S.) could use the brutal tactics used in that campaign. The world community would condemn it, correctly, as genocide.

"address the legitimate concerns of the "grievance guerrillas."", that's critical, as you pointed out. In the case of many Iraqis their concern seems to be the occupation itself. Considering the history of western interventions in the region, the legitimacy of that concern can certainly be argued.

Your points about the troops being of the same culture is also critical, perhaps even having many of their own people who speak the local language?

You write: "If for some reason, the counter-insurgency must leave the field, the strategy will fail.". True, but is that necessarily a bad thing? Would it have been such a bad thing had the U.S. given the Philippines it's independence in 1900? In retrospect, considering Japan in WWII maybe that wouldn't have worked out so well, but my preference for self-determination makes me think Mark Twain was correct.

From your perspective, especially considering the cultural issues you mentioned, doesn't it seem troops from Iraq's neighbors would be more effective in counterinsurgency efforts, while also removing their primary grievance- western military presence.

There also is considerable mention to following the rule of law in dealing with the insurgency. Would you say the counterinsurgency against the Communists (in the 1990s?) followed the rule of law, more or less? I'm not very familar with that effort. I googled one article:

...Two Chinese arms shipments in 1972 and 1974 were intercepted and Chinese aid stopped in 1975....

...with President Marcos gone the communists lost their main recruiter...
The 1st of those brings up another important COIN objective, cut off the supplies of the insurgents, which we can't seem to do in Iraq. The 2nd one we already talked about, legitimate grievance.
 

Cooch

Active Member
In the case of many Iraqis their concern seems to be the occupation itself. Considering the history of western interventions in the region, the legitimacy of that concern can certainly be argued.
I would suggest that, given the history of violence in the region that has no relation to "western intervention" that this argument should be approached with caution.

Was there conflict in Iraq before the Western invasion?..... Yes.
Would conflict cease if all western forces withdrew?...... In all probability, No.

The current inability of the ISF to fully secure the protection of their citizens may in part be a result of poor decisions by the invading coalition, but I see no evidence to support the argument that replacing US troops with those from a middle-eastern country would result in a cessation of the current conflict.

Respectfully.........Peter
 

Cletus Wilbury

New Member
...but I see no evidence to support the argument that replacing US troops with those from a middle-eastern country would result in a cessation of the current conflict.

Respectfully.........Peter
Fair enough, if you want to discount the reasons I gave, but it would save us $10 billion month.
 

Chrom

New Member
I would suggest that, given the history of violence in the region that has no relation to "western intervention" that this argument should be approached with caution.

Was there conflict in Iraq before the Western invasion?..... Yes.
Would conflict cease if all western forces withdrew?...... In all probability, No.

The current inability of the ISF to fully secure the protection of their citizens may in part be a result of poor decisions by the invading coalition, but I see no evidence to support the argument that replacing US troops with those from a middle-eastern country would result in a cessation of the current conflict.

Respectfully.........Peter
Nope, it wouldnt reduce violence right away - in fact, it will certainly increase it for short while. But sooner or later US troops must be withdrawn, and there is no real indication what later situation will be better than now. As such, the sooner US forces will be withdrawn the sooner civil war will end there - whoever will win.
 

merocaine

New Member
If I was American I would be happier if the present Administration were able to articulate its long term strategic gaols in Iraq, and the wider Middle East.

American policy in the region is drifting in a highly disturbing fashion.
Sometimes I wake up in the morning look at the news and I think I'm living in a parallel universe.

Its almost 5 years and the Bush Administration still doesent know why its still in Iraq, and why its going to be there for the foreseeable future.

A quick run down

The current fight,

US vs Sunni Islamic fighters (simmering)

US vs Shia Islamic fighters (flaring up

US vs Al Queada (long running)

US vs Iraqi Sunni nationalists (winding down, with the possiblity of flaring up)

Al Queada vs Iraqi Sunni nationalists (flaring up)

Al Queada vs all the Shia factions.

Iraqi (bader brigades, Iranian backed, US backed) vs Madi army elements (nationalist, Iranian Backed) this is the big one...

Iraqi Army vs Sunni nationalists (stalemate, since the Insurgents have smoked the peace pipe with the US the hated Iraqi army has pretty much abandoned the fight, expect this one to heat up again)

Turkey vs Kurdish elements (face it Kurdistan is a fact)

Iran vs Kurdish elements (ditto)

plus many other smaller turf wars...

The US and Iran are backing the same horse in the Islamic Council of Iraq and the Bader Brigades/Kurds. Unfortunately that horse is in favor of dismembering the country on sectarian lines. The Sadrists who they want to destroy, are along with the Sunni nationalists the only groups that want to maintain a united Iraq. Quick point A Nationalist united Iraq would be much more resistant to Iranian influence that a Shia Rump dominated by that one time Iranian Milita the Bader Brigades.

Now I dont believe the Americans want Iraq to be dismembered, but there policies seem to support this out come.

If I had any ideas as to what US long term strategic goals were, I could make a few educated guesses as to what there moves should be.

As for General P. hes done a very good job at running a counter insurgency campaign, he's been helped by a number of factors beyond his control (Sunni /Al Queada civil war and Sadr moving into politics) but done a great job of capitalizing on those events. However without a strategic direction those tactical gains will prove fleeting.
 
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