Cobra Attack Choppers. Any better option ????

[Oqaab]

Latest reports says that Pakistan will be purchasing Cobra attack choppers and some Search and Rescue choppers. Correct me if I m worng but what I heard was It costs 20 million USD. Some new choppers are also in arket such as tiger which costs 7 million USD and Roovliak whose cost is 6.2 million USD. A-129 is being operated by Italian army but I dont know its cost.

My question is, which chopper will be the best option for Pakistan considering capabilities, performance and cost ?

Thanx.

 

[Winter]

NB: Perhaps as an air-system related topic this should be listed in the Air Force board.

The Cobra is probably the most ideal platform for Pakistan out of the ones you have listed there...

There is of course, the far superior Apache though the expense and politics....? Also they were designed for Northern Europe terrain....Not the mountainous Kashmir or any other prospective battlefield for Pakistan....I imagine the more rugged and versatile Cobra could handle that...After all, it was born in the extremes of Vietnam.

 

[Oqaab]

Since our army is using attack choppers, I posted it in army forum.

comming back to the topic.

Apache costs 22 million USD but US will not sell these to Pakistan due to indian pressure. :mad

 

[Red aRRow]

Well Ideal for Pakistan would be to get some Gunships which China is currently developing. But since they are not available as of now...so as a stop gap measure I would suggest the Italian A129 Mangusta. The helicopter is very capable and has also been deployed in Somalia and Angola and I think the Italians won't be screwing Pakistan over in case of a war by denying spares and stuff.

 

[Oqaab]

The chopper China is making has only two hardpoints. Cobra will be bettter then those choppers. Pakistan and South Africa are now expanding ties in defence field and we can ask for the Roovalk which has 6 hardponts.

 

[Red aRRow]

I think best options for Pakistan Army are the South African Rooivalk or the Italian Mangusta.

 

[Oqaab]

Yes, Rooivalk has 6 hardpoints and its the best option for PA. South Africa might sell these choppers to Pakistan coz of growing defence ties between the two countries. I read somewhere that South Africa offered us T-darter and A-darter missiles for JF-17 and currently working over a missile project with Pakistan.

 

[The Watcher]

Oqaab, you have info on those darter missile/project?

I think pakistan should go for Russian gunship helis if not then Italian mangustas are good as well. Specs?

Apache is a better option but its like close to impossible to get... unless you are Israel or Arab sheikhs.

 

[Oqaab]

Oqaab, you have info on those darter missile/project?

I think pakistan should go for Russian gunship helis if not then Italian mangustas are good as well. Specs?

Apache is a better option but its like close to impossible to get... unless you are Israel or Arab sheikhs.

The T-darter was offered to Pakistan as a BVR weapon for JF-17 since SD-10 will enter production in 2008. It has a range of 50 kms and Pakistani ROSE upg mirages may carry these missiles. Pakistan tested this missile in april by the name of H-4 (Hafr-4). Air Weapons Complex is making weapons of Hafr series and its possible that Pakistan will also make this missile but the report is still unconfurmed.

Comming back to the topic,

Russia sold Mi-8/17 transport choppers to Pakistan and I dont think it will sell armed choppers. What we can do is upgrade our cobras with US help or try to get new choppers from other sources like Italy, South Africa, France or Germany.

 

[webmaster]

I believe for Pakistan- Italy would be a good choice to get something for mean time.

Also, Pakistan should work with China to develope attack chopper as well like jf-17.

 

[Oqaab]

I believe for Pakistan- Italy would be a good choice to get something for mean time.

Also, Pakistan should work with China to develope attack chopper as well like jf-17.

To be honest, I m against any project like JF-17 in future. Pakistan supported the project finantially but we will only be getting 50% technology of the aircraft. We should get COMPLETE transfer of technology of weapons. Not 25 or 50 percent. Now, Pakistan's top prioity is to make this aircraft in Pakistan without importing anything of the aircraft and this will take time....atleast 5 - 6 years.

 

[corsair7772]

IF they become available we should go 4 the Ka-50 or the near completion Ka-52 which is the most advanced heli in the world no matter what they say abt the Apache

 

[muslim282]

Very difficult choice.

Russian...no way. lndia would have russia by its privates if they tried to sell us armed helicopters, also spare parts are highly unreliable. :mad

Tiger... to much red tape and too many countries involved.

Mangusta... possibly. Could also benefit in other defence contracts and transfer of work.

Cobras... most suitable for pakistan. The problem being spare parts/ sanctions each time we don,t bow to the USA. l don,t know how it prices up as well. :?

Rooivalk... possibly. Again like the italians/mangusta we could benefit in many defence contracts and projects technology transfer work.

Apache... well uncle sam would probably give us the bottom end spec at a very high price in about another 10 years of negotiations. The arab apache helicopters none have longbow radars while the israelis do. The israelis probably got them cheaper aswell. :

Reverse Engineered Hueys.... Arm them with rockets and tow's. Night vission, abit more HP to the engine.... well who knows. :help

 

[darklegent]

Reverse Engineered Hueys
Muslim whats it with u why not pump in money and make a new product, why copy? :?

 

[Gremlin29]

I think muslim282 has a pretty good idea. If I were in the Pakistan army I would go for an old Bell product, UH-1's or AH-1's. Since over water flight is gonna be pretty limited the single engine models wouldn't be bad but the twins offer more power for mountain ops. Reallistically helicopters haven't changed in over 30 years, they are and always be limited in maximum airspeed (not much of difference between 140 knots and 160 knots). So your left with avionic, power plant and weapons upgrades. The AH-1F would offer a failry high tech and tremendously reliable anti-tank/aerial artillery platform that's time tested and proven. It's also very inexpensive to operate in comparison to the newer gunships. I always though the Marines chose wisely upgrading their AH-1 fleet to carry Hellfire, it can carry out the same mission as Apache for alot less money. The airframes are as old as dirt but that doesn't mean a new assembly line couldn't be started back up. They could also be armed with more organic weapons and avionics, neither of which have much to do with the way the ship flies. Anyway, a twin Huey makes a pretty good solid gunship, and could be armed with all sorts of weapons systems. Reverse engineer or is it possible to procure 412's directly from Bell?

 

[tatra]

Reverse Engineered Hueys.... Arm them with rockets and tow's. Night vission, abit more HP to the engine.... well who knows. :help

Iran has been doing just thaty and is now capable of (re)building Hueys. Might not be a stretch to get some help from them.

 

[muslim282]

thank you tatra.
lran has been successful in reverse engineering. l think it won,t be long when they have a fully engineered cobra.
l dont think pakistan has the capacity to research and develop a new helicopter. Copying gives you a gigantic leap, working on already proven technologies. These can then be further developed.
l quite like the idea of the hueys ( tough and versatile ) being built in pakistan ( as by iran ) and good weapons integrated. Wether the hellfire comes from a huey or a cobra or apache, the impact and destruction of the enemy is the same. So helicopter alone is not the answer, but a overall package of weapons, helicopter and balls of steel to take it to the enemy.
A combo of cobras, rooivalks and an idigenous production would be a good solution.

 

[yasin_khan]

The first choice will be cobra bcoz PA is already using them.The second should be the SA Rivolk or Italian Mangusta.And if Russia provide the KA-50 then they are the best from all. :smokingc:

 

[muslim282]

My brother Yasin

Let me explain something. THE RUSSIANS WILL NOT SELL THEIR KA50 TO PAKISTAN.
Also where do the people out their get the idea that the ka50 is such a good gunship. lt is unproven and also they are trying to sell it to turkey as turkey is hoping to purchase a large amount of gunships. The eventual winner was the new cobra. But the sale has come to some sort of standstill, l don,t know why. Ka50 was also put forward by the russians, as its electronics were of extremely poor nature compared to most western types it was offered as a combined package in which the israelis would do the avionics work and upgrade. ( these details were published in A.F.M )
No chance of pakistan getting avionics from israel.
The ka50 has not even been taken on by the russians in large numbers, though there have been empty promises of russia eventually taking on at least 200+. Russia has also lost afew in the armed conflict in chechnya to light arms fire from the chechen mujahedeen. So they now refuse to use their ka50 in chechnya.
What looks good does not always perform good my friend.
Personally l,d like a large force of cobras, but the americans are very unreliable, when they need pakistan they start kissing ass ( pardon the expression, but its true ) when they don,t need us its time to slap an arms embargo on us. For this reason the cobras could suffer as well as our forces.
This is why l,m a great fan of indiginisation.
We need to look at alternative means therfore Rooivalk and Mangusta are probably the best in the long term. Also both are equipped to deal with electronic warfare. While the cobras aren,t.

 

[P.A.F]

Cobra or forget it. PA should get the cobra as they already have got training & experience on it. i also like it. :